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#1
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ECUtune Stage 2v6 ethanol, e85, flex fuel, turbo, supercharger, force induction
Ok boys and girls, we've got some Stage 3 cars on the road and being put on the road and now I can turn my attention back to what I do: Engine management software.
I know some of you were wondering what "secret" Chris refered to in the Stage 3 thread that I am working on and I see that the topic of E85 has come up in one of Phil's turbo threads. I'm guessing because he knows the "secret" since he lives in a corn state and is one of our guinea pigs. The "secret" is we are replacing the 2nd version of software on our memory adaptors (the 87 octane code, nitrous code, etc) with software for e85. The first version which will be available for purchase is Stage 2v6. We will be testing it this week before shipping but believe it is done. Both the premium unlead software in the default memory location of 2v6 and the e85 software in the 2nd memory location of 2v6 incorporate a couple of other substantial improvements. In the stage 2v6 software a lot of ignition timing has been moved from the revision table into the primary table. This changes around the way things work. Instead of the ecu having to learn in additional advance now it runs it to begin with and if need be can take it out according to the knock sensors. With this change we see about 5 degrees more ignition advance being utilized very happily through out a wide range of driving conditions on the street. This provides a real performance improvement in all types of driving conditions. There are two areas of the table which are not normally seen in a stock svx but are now important for a number of mod'ed svx's out there. The above mentioned change to the timing table dramatically changed the shape of the timing table in those areas for HUGE improvements for these modded cars. The two areas are for 1) of course, svx"ii with forced induction 2)svx'ii with manual transmissions. There is now an appropriate amount of timing at low rpms to maintian engine operation while shifting a manual transmission. The prior lack is a likely culprit for stalling issues many svx'ii with manual transmission conversions have encountered. There is now also an appropriate amount of ignition timing for those running higher loads than factory. Performance with forced induction etc are hugely improved. |
#2
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Michael:
That sounds really good. Can't wait to make the upgrade. You have created any army of addicts out there who faithfully line up for your latest enhancement. count me as one. I guess this will be the fourth one of your chips I have had in my car.
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____________________________________________ 95 LS-i Red, 31,xxx; bone stock for now; Daily Driver 94 LS-i Emerald Pearl, 106,xxx,; 246 whp; Tomyx snorkus and HKS Cold air intake; PWR aluminum radiator, silicone hoses; Inline thermostat; enhanced coolant routing; external power steering and oil coolers; Phenolic intake manifold spacers; 2004 WRX 5 speed transmission; ACT Clutch Kit, Heavy Duty Pressure Plate, Lightweight flywheel, performance disc; Group N motor mounts; ‘07 WRX 4-pot front calipers, cryo-treated slotted Tribeca rotors; Hawk HPS ferro-carbon pads; Frozenrotor rear slotted rotors; SS brake lines, Axxis Ultimate pads; Rota Torque 17x8 wheels; 245/40-17 Bridgestone RE01-R's; Koni inserts with Ground Control coilovers, Eibach springs; K-Mac camber/caster adjustable strut mounts; Urethane swaybar bushings; Bontrager rear sway bar; Urethane differential bushing; Custom Whiteline adjustable rear lateral links; Outlaw Engineering forged underdrive pulley; custom grind Web intake and exhaust cams (11 mm lift, 250° duration); solid lifters; CP custom aluminum forged 11 to 1 pistons, Brian Crower coated SS intake & exhaust valves; Brian Crower upgraded springs w/ titanium retainers; NGK sparkplugs; RallyBob (Bob Legere) ported and polished cylinder heads; Eagle H-beam rods; ACL Bearings; Cometic Head gaskets; ARP head studs & fasteners; Hydra Nemesis EMS; Wideband O2 sensor; 740cc Injectors; Walbro 255lph fuel pump; Upgraded WRX starter; Equal length SS headers (3 into 1); dual Magnaflow cat converters; 2 into 1 into 2 SS exhaust with Bullet muffler; OT Fiberglass hood; Oil pressure gauge; Programmable shift light, 2017 Subaru Forester XT, metallic dark gray, 29,xxx 2005 Porsche 911 Turbo S Cabrio, 24,xxx 2006 Subaru Outback LL Bean, 166,xxx sold 92 LSL Dark Teal, Smallcar Shift Kit - sold |
#3
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Sounds like a good thing to try out and see some numbers on the Dyno over 2V5. How do you do the "upgrade" in software for current customers?
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1992 SVX LS-L: Now TomStock Stage 3... 6MT, R180 Rear, Tomstock Short Shifter and hard rubber mount, Group N Motor and Tranny Mount, Stage 2V6 Chip, Z32 MAF, Stage 3 CAI, Stebro, Intake Cams, 17" STi BBS Powder Coated Black, Bridgestone Potenza RE070, and Koni inserts w/Mychailo's Springs! Sand Diego SCCA Solo 2 #308 RIP 84 VW Scirocco 02 WRX 88 XT6(regret the day I left her behind) socaleuro.com They like the flat 6... Check My New Homepage.. |
#4
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E85
Hi LAN, Its my understanding that if a vehicle is not piumbed to take E85 in the fuel system that E85 will "eat" the hoses, gaskets, etc. And because of the reduced BTU's in E85 you will get about 30% less fuel mileage. Also I don't know what effect E85 will have, long term, on our plastic gas tanks. Take card, BOBB
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#5
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It's my understanding that after the fuel shortages in the late 70's when they did mix ethanol into the gasoline despite vehicles having some materials with incompatiblities in them that in the 80's US regulations were modified requiring auto manufacturers to make all vehicles for US markets ethanol compatible. It's probably an excellent idea to change those antique hoses anyway. Both Dayco and Gates fuel injector hose are multi fuel compatible--they have been for over a year.
On the note of probable fuel efficiency with E85 in a propperly tuned SVX: It does require about 30% more E85 by volume to attain the propper afr; however, that does not mean that your fuel efficiency will go down 30%. I think it's interesting and worth pointing out that with the stage 1v4 software we increased the fuel injected by 12% and didn't see any decrease in fuel economy because the resultant power improvement gave us something back for our 12%. It's not exactly the same situation with the E85 because 30% is a lot more than 12% and because that 30% is consistent even under light loads; however, we can expect the significant performance improvements we will see with E85 to lessen the impact on mileage very nicely. Really what it comes down to in my mind is that the SVX engine is barely able to operate with US premium unleaded and would really prefer a higher octane fuel. E85 is 105 octane and is basically a better fuel for the SVX in every way. In fact the higher mass of E85 injected benifits performance by increasing cooling. The increased mass caries the heat from the combustion chamber out the exhaust. Besides being superior for a stock svx engine the burning characteristics and increased mass of the E85 fuel charge should prove an amazing improvement for forced induction which has even higher dynamic compression. Quote:
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#6
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Having given my opinion on E85 and the SVX I want to make clear that is just my opinion. The stage 2v6 software should not be considered an e85 conversion kit. It is as all of our products are for off road use only and it is the purchaser's responsibility to determine the applicability and combatibility of it for their application.
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#7
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Micheal,
Great news! Have you been following the "Cam Lobes" thread? Do you see any issues with running the 2V6 chip with the cams we're looking at for NA applications? Gest24's dyno runs with the stage 1 intake cams, 2v5 chip and z32 MAF looked pretty good, other than being a little lean (which I'd attibute to the use of the stock fpr). Other than the change in the timing table, are there any AFR-related changes?. -Bill (looking forward to 2v6'dom!)
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Retired NASA Rocket Scientist Most famous NASA "Child" - OSIRIS-REx delivered samples from asteroid BENNU to Earth in Sept. 2023 Center Network Member #989 '92 Fully caged, 5 speed, waiting for its fully built EG33 '92 "Test Mule", 4:44 Auto, JDM 4:44 Rear Diff with Mech LSD, Tuned headers, Full one-off suspension '92(?) Laguna, 6 spd and other stuff (still at OT's place) My Locker |
#8
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I thought I had read somewhere that switching a car to E85 required more than just reprograming the ECU. I thought it rquired a complete change of a majority of the fuel system components. It was my understanding that E85 was corrosive and would slowly damage a standard tank, fuel lines, injectors, ect. and damage rubber seals.
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#9
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I'm pretty sure that LAN just answered all of your questions but I'll give a go as well.
For the most part, any car produced after 1985-ish should have a fuel system capable of handling E85... In some states for almost 30 years "E10" has been used, which is just 10% ethanol, 90% "gas"... E85 is obviously 85% ethanol... Alcohol is known to be corrosive towards some rubber, however I am fairly sure that the difference in part life would be slight at best. Obviously niether LAN or I can guarantee that it won't cause some random gasket to fail, however as this "conversion" is becoming common in the automotive world, i think it is safe to say that you would be fine using the stock system with E85... on another note, yes, fuel mileage does decrease by 30%, but in some areas E85 is 20-50% cheaper than gasoline. Typically most people find that it equals out in the end, neither gaining nor losing miles per dollar.
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Greg 97 Red SVX LSi clean 96 Black SVX LSi beater 90 Red Eclipse GSX track ho 99 Ford F250 work horse My Locker |
#10
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Uh, y'all are absolutely wrong regarding E85. Vehicles that are rated to use it have vast differences. Ethanol is highly corrosive and more than a few rubber hoses are required. The metallurgy of the entire engine is different.
The 'gasohol' of the '70s and '80s was never supposed to exceed 3-7%, yet many distributors kept adding more until they began receiving complaints. Then they backed it down a point or two but even that was still enough to cause problems. Usually they ended up around 9-11%. That was enough to eat the zinc from carburetors, turning them into junk. Carbs were made from base metal with zinc which filled the pores. Ethanol/methanol attacked the zinc and made the carbs porous. Now imagine what 85% ethanol is going to do to pistons, camshafts, etc. Hoses will be the least of your problems.
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ASE Certified Master Automotive Technician w/L1. ASE Certified Master Medium/Heavy Truck Technician. Certified EVT (Emergency Vehicle Technician) |
#11
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yeah
Aluminumuminimum.... I've seen cans eaten through.
But it sounds like a great meathod of making the mt swap more complete.
__________________
-Mike ECUTune2v7 - 4.11 5 Speed - Sprung 6 Puck Clutch - D&S Rotors - SS Brake & Clutch Lines - HKS Panel Filter - HeaderBack Exhaust -80GB Hard Drive - GroupN Engine Mounts - - some other "tricks"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] In progess: track down mystery noise <-identified, paint the new dash, get better pic Spring plans: Replace Trans - Integrate ECU with the carputer - Suspension - Go back to STI Filter - Paint? Maybe not - Next Oil change: Purolator L30165 Member #995 | My Locker | My New Locker Catch you next at: ? Auto-X ? |
#12
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to clarify....
Steel components of our engine may be fine... but it will eat right through all our aluminum and it gets worse when you heat it up. Beav is dead on, zinc is a great example... ethanol eats it just like aluminum.
__________________
-Mike ECUTune2v7 - 4.11 5 Speed - Sprung 6 Puck Clutch - D&S Rotors - SS Brake & Clutch Lines - HKS Panel Filter - HeaderBack Exhaust -80GB Hard Drive - GroupN Engine Mounts - - some other "tricks"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] In progess: track down mystery noise <-identified, paint the new dash, get better pic Spring plans: Replace Trans - Integrate ECU with the carputer - Suspension - Go back to STI Filter - Paint? Maybe not - Next Oil change: Purolator L30165 Member #995 | My Locker | My New Locker Catch you next at: ? Auto-X ? |
#13
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Isn't ethanol only corrosive when contanimated with water?
Weren't natural rubbers, cork, and exposed aluminum eliminated from engine components manufactured after 1988? It seems to me like everything is geared up for ethanol now. It's getting pretty hard to find new parts that aren't ehtanol compatible. I'm rebuilding an 85 chrysler 318 which originally had all kinds of non ethanol compatible parts but every cork gasket for it now has been replaced with nitrile coated fiber, paper gaskets replaced with nitrile gaskets, etc etc. I'm willing to bet the new eldebrock carb I'm puttin on it is compatible too. I haven't seen them yet but I believe they are also making engine oils with additives that combat formic acid in the event that you do get water contaminated e85. |
#14
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Michael:
So, what will the damage be for us addicts of your continuing stream of wonderful chips that so enhance our motorsport experience? Guess I'll have to steal another color TV to support my habit.
__________________
____________________________________________ 95 LS-i Red, 31,xxx; bone stock for now; Daily Driver 94 LS-i Emerald Pearl, 106,xxx,; 246 whp; Tomyx snorkus and HKS Cold air intake; PWR aluminum radiator, silicone hoses; Inline thermostat; enhanced coolant routing; external power steering and oil coolers; Phenolic intake manifold spacers; 2004 WRX 5 speed transmission; ACT Clutch Kit, Heavy Duty Pressure Plate, Lightweight flywheel, performance disc; Group N motor mounts; ‘07 WRX 4-pot front calipers, cryo-treated slotted Tribeca rotors; Hawk HPS ferro-carbon pads; Frozenrotor rear slotted rotors; SS brake lines, Axxis Ultimate pads; Rota Torque 17x8 wheels; 245/40-17 Bridgestone RE01-R's; Koni inserts with Ground Control coilovers, Eibach springs; K-Mac camber/caster adjustable strut mounts; Urethane swaybar bushings; Bontrager rear sway bar; Urethane differential bushing; Custom Whiteline adjustable rear lateral links; Outlaw Engineering forged underdrive pulley; custom grind Web intake and exhaust cams (11 mm lift, 250° duration); solid lifters; CP custom aluminum forged 11 to 1 pistons, Brian Crower coated SS intake & exhaust valves; Brian Crower upgraded springs w/ titanium retainers; NGK sparkplugs; RallyBob (Bob Legere) ported and polished cylinder heads; Eagle H-beam rods; ACL Bearings; Cometic Head gaskets; ARP head studs & fasteners; Hydra Nemesis EMS; Wideband O2 sensor; 740cc Injectors; Walbro 255lph fuel pump; Upgraded WRX starter; Equal length SS headers (3 into 1); dual Magnaflow cat converters; 2 into 1 into 2 SS exhaust with Bullet muffler; OT Fiberglass hood; Oil pressure gauge; Programmable shift light, 2017 Subaru Forester XT, metallic dark gray, 29,xxx 2005 Porsche 911 Turbo S Cabrio, 24,xxx 2006 Subaru Outback LL Bean, 166,xxx sold 92 LSL Dark Teal, Smallcar Shift Kit - sold Last edited by shotgunslade; 11-14-2006 at 08:38 PM. |
#15
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I was in a rush this morning and may have come across terse, but the facts remain.
The 'rubber' parts are the least of your worries. Find a hydrocarbon that isn't hygroscopic. Ever hear of scotch and water? Bourbon and branch water? Gas Dry? (alcohol that absorbs moisture from fuel?) Steel components that aren't subject to wear will probably be o.k. but parts that endure wear - camshafts, wrist pins, blah, blah, blah will catch hell. Every manufacturer that has vehicles designed for E85 specifically states so. I don't know of, and doubt the existence of, any OEMs that don't specifically state that E85 should not be used in any of their vehicles not designed specifically for its use. It is a selling point. I know for certain that Fords so designed have small square emblems with a green tree branch that winds off into the horizon, like a road, that denote their ethanol capable cars and trucks. I also know they spent several years in testing in south america before they were brought to market here, a number of years ago. I also know there was a heckuva lot more involved in their development than changing a few hoses... not to mention the cars' own ability to figure out what fuel it is operating on.
__________________
ASE Certified Master Automotive Technician w/L1. ASE Certified Master Medium/Heavy Truck Technician. Certified EVT (Emergency Vehicle Technician) |
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