SUVs are gas hogs

[LarryIII]

SUVs are just today's station wagons.

I say bring back a modern version of the Chevy Nomad that will blow the doors off any SUVs. It could be based on the Corvette.

[SilverSpear]

I personally am a fan of the H1, I once saw a documentary about it concerning its struts which are custom mercury based and are controlled by a magnetized thing. Elevation is controlled by this device, really interesting. As for all the other GM products, either H3, H2, Chevy's... they never last more than few years until breakdowns occur...

I have studied the car market mentality for a few years now and I have concluded the following:

The World market for cars is becoming more and more saturated, so manufacturers are interested in market turnover in order to increase sales. To do that, they cannot provide cars with full excellent quality at low price, so they are tempting people either to buy luxury cars at very high prices and fair quality or LOW quality cars with excellent low prices.

Concerning the luxury cars, manufacturers are building them with GOOD quality parts but not high quality. I have personally seen a 2003 MB S500 whose wires are cracked (sorry I forgot which wires were cracked, the car was consuming batteries like hell, there was a power loss) and getting "siliconed" by the garage worker. I asked him what he was doing, the first thing he replied: MB is not building high quality cars as it used to be, those wires cost around $700 if the owner wants to get them from the dealership, so I am trying to isolate them through silicone, hoping it would work and save him the $$$. Of course those luxury cars have a longer duration than other cars, but still companies are thinking of turnover...

And for the low cost vehicules, taking the pulleys for example, do you know that most cars are having them in PLASTIC? Anybody knows that if the engine is interfierent and such a pulley breaks, what would happen to an engine? I dunno if they are producing now plastic crank/cam pulleys, but they sure have started with the P/S, Alternator pulleys... Parts are designed not to last just to increase breakdowns ---> fixings ----> labor and parts costs ----> selling the old car and buying a new one, hence starting all over again.

In my opinion, newer models are not to be trusted anymore, especially GM

P.S: Shadow pls do not take it personally, I can understand your love for GM cars... this is just an opinion.

[Shadow248]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

P.S: Shadow pls do not take it personally, I can understand your love for GM cars... this is just an opinion.

I respect your opinion, and i'm not taking this personally. I never do. I will simply, as always, offer evidence to the contrary. Hopefully you can take MY comments as non-personal and not freak out like some other members do.

http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases...asp?ID=2005069

GM now holds two of the top 5 quality leaders spots. Buick at 4th and Cadillac at 5th. What's more, they both outranked Toyota and Honda. 4 out of GM's 7 brands fell well above the industry average, and EVERY SINGLE GM marque outranked established brands Subaru, Volvo, Porsche, VW, and Mazda.

Also worthy of note based on your comment about Hummers is the fact that the Hummer brand sits one notch above Honda. Since GM took over Hummer, the brand has gone from being 30th (or worse) out of 37 brands, to breaking into the top ten.

You can dislike GM because you don't like their styling, design,...etc. But the "low-quality" reasons don't work anymore. GM is now building cars on par and in some cases even better than Honda, Toyota, BMW, etc.

Even though this is probably the tenth time i've made a post like this, someone will misinterpret it, or find a way to argue.

[Landshark]

Originally Posted by Shadow248

I respect your opinion, and i'm not taking this personally. I never do. I will simply, as always, offer evidence to the contrary. Hopefully you can take MY comments as non-personal and not freak out like some other members do.

http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases...asp?ID=2005069

GM now holds two of the top 5 quality leaders spots. Buick at 4th and Cadillac at 5th. What's more, they both outranked Toyota and Honda. 4 out of GM's 7 brands fell well above the industry average, and EVERY SINGLE GM marque outranked established brands Subaru, Volvo, Porsche, VW, and Mazda.

Also worthy of note based on your comment about Hummers is the fact that the Hummer brand sits one notch above Honda. Since GM took over Hummer, the brand has gone from being 30th (or worse) out of 37 brands, to breaking into the top ten.

You can dislike GM because you don't like their styling, design,...etc. But the "low-quality" reasons don't work anymore. GM is now building cars on par and in some cases even better than Honda, Toyota, BMW, etc.

Even though this is probably the tenth time i've made a post like this, someone will misinterpret it, or find a way to argue.

oh boy, the ol' INITIAL Quality study again.

i'll take longterm reliability over warranty fixes in the first 3 months for the win.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by Shadow248

GM is now contimplating screwing its employees by declaring bankrupcy so the can build their cars in Mexico where they think they'll be able to compete better by screwing the Mexican workers too. Obviously only an idiot cares more for awards then what the buyer wants which is why I don't use initial quality awards to support my half-a$$ed statements to make me feel better when my GMs are at the dealer again

Fixed your post. Why again are you still here?

[Shadow248]

Originally Posted by Landshark

oh boy, the ol' INITIAL Quality study again.

i'll take longterm reliability over warranty fixes in the first 3 months for the win.

If you can find any proof either way of long term reliability of new GM vehicles, i'd love to see it.

[Shadow248]

Originally Posted by benebob

Fixed your post. Why again are you still here?

I'm officially ignoring your useless ramblings from this point on.

[Landshark]

Originally Posted by Shadow248

If you can find any proof either way of long term reliability of new GM vehicles, i'd love to see it.

i have no studys, surveys, or data as proof - only my experiences owning several GM cars, as well as family and friends, so i base my observations off of that.

i know you don't allow such "unofficial" data, but it works for me. now on my third Subaru, i have had none of the problems that plagued the GM's i, and others i know, have owned or currently own. i'm not a fanboi, either - in the future i will consider other brands, because i'm not liking the direction Subaru styling is headed. if a similar AWD performance vehicle comes along that meets my needs and tastes, i will consider it. i'm sure i can't say the same for you.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by Shadow248

If you can find any proof either way of long term reliability of new GM vehicles, i'd love to see it.

Proof is your resale value there buddy which GM has well, cough, the WORST IN THE US. Pretty hard to be worse than the Koreans too if you ask me!

WHY ARE YOU HERE?

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by Landshark

i know you don't allow such "unofficial" data, but it works for me. now on my third Subaru, i have had none of the problems that plagued the GM's i, and others i know, have owned or currently own. i'm not a fanboi, either - in the future i will consider other brands, because i'm not liking the direction Subaru styling is headed. if a similar AWD performance vehicle comes along that meets my needs and tastes, i will consider it. i'm sure i can't say the same for you.

You are right Landshark, over here the GM products are the only cars that reach a point where they are NON-FIXABLE and are eventually thrown away to junkyards... So you see there, some nice GM models (from 1980's till 1995)and very old cars from other manufacturers (from 19XX - 1990). Most cars are fixable even after a horrible accident. GM's are the only cars whose tranny cannot be fixed, they just throw them away. Shadow note that I live in a country whose labor is very cheap, so cheap that it is unbelievable and mechanics are quite skillful. No one fixes a GM tranny, they do Hondas, Mercedes, BMW's, Subarus, JEEP, but never GM...

These polls you linked us to, are far from reality, my opinion. British cars has the worst history in my country. 1995-1999 range rovers have the reputation that they suffer a short circuit leading to fire and disaster. Jags and Saabs are almost never bought because of their complicated engine and electronics designs. Hondas, Nissans (sunny's and pathfinders), BMWs and Mercedes constitute around 80% of total cars sold here... Subaru is known as the MOST RELIABLE JAPANESE CAR, almost NON BREAKABLE but suffering high prices for parts, this is why it is not enjoying higher sales. (people here are worried about the external parts of subies (in case of accidents, they need replacements which are sometimes rare to find in used parts lots and will be obliged to buy from the dealership... and carry the high costs) and struts, ball joints...(we have a lot of holes in roads, so those parts are highly consumed). Furthermore, the subaru dealer is a thief in the sense, for example he charges for the SVX headlight $455, whereas in the states it costs $325 (I think)...

Pls no offense Shadow, but people here think of GM as cheap cars, acceptable quality, full options but for use for no more than 5 years (when new) or 3 years when old, and they are UGLY as hell.

They consider those cars as the same standard as the Koreans, but having a long wheelbase. As you know recently, GM bought Daewoo (or I dunno, got the highest stake in the company) and produced the Optra, Epica and that third model... I forgot the name... they are all DAEWOO's with a Chevrolet badge ??? is that Standard GM is relying on ? KOREAN?

P.S: buicks, caddys, chevys and olds are the only cars once either the tranny or engine breaks down, are just thrown away because they are worth less than their engine

[Boxer6SVX]

I however would buy a Tahoe or Suburban Z71 over an H2 or H3 if I had any offroad intentions and the need for that kind of vehicle.

I REALLY like the new Tahoe/Suburban

Just buy a tahoe and feel happy knowing you are driving on the same driveline as an H2 and you saved a bunch of money by switching to Geico... UM, I mean by not buying an H2 haha

As for the H3? How about an H4 or H5...H6...H7.... when will it ever end..... this is the Hummer that goes on and on and on hahaha

[Shadow248]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

You are right Landshark, over here the GM products are the only cars that reach a point where they are NON-FIXABLE and are eventually thrown away to junkyards... So you see there, some nice GM models (from 1980's till 1995)and very old cars from other manufacturers (from 19XX - 1990). Most cars are fixable even after a horrible accident. GM's are the only cars whose tranny cannot be fixed, they just throw them away. Shadow note that I live in a country whose labor is very cheap, so cheap that it is unbelievable and mechanics are quite skillful. No one fixes a GM tranny, they do Hondas, Mercedes, BMW's, Subarus, JEEP, but never GM...

I know first hand that this is BS, but nice try.

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

These polls you linked us to, are far from reality, my opinion.

There it is, opinion. Everyone's got one. But people asked for proof, I showed it. Can't accept it? Whatever.

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

Subaru is known as the MOST RELIABLE JAPANESE CAR, almost NON BREAKABLE but suffering high prices for parts, this is why it is not enjoying higher sales.

Uh huh, sure.

Actually, that's almost the same as the US, except in this country, Subaru falls below just about every major brand in quality.

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

As you know recently, GM bought Daewoo (or I dunno, got the highest stake in the company) and produced the Optra, Epica and that third model... I forgot the name... they are all DAEWOO's with a Chevrolet badge ??? is that Standard GM is relying on ? KOREAN?

GM bought and dissolved Daewoo almost four years ago. It's only a badge now. Plus the GM subcompact is not an in-house platform.

[Shadow248]

Originally Posted by Landshark

i have no studys, surveys, or data as proof - only my experiences owning several GM cars, as well as family and friends, so i base my observations off of that.

I know this.

Originally Posted by Landshark

i know you don't allow such "unofficial" data, but it works for me. now on my third Subaru, i have had none of the problems that plagued the GM's i, and others i know, have owned or currently own. i'm not a fanboi, either - in the future i will consider other brands, because i'm not liking the direction Subaru styling is headed. if a similar AWD performance vehicle comes along that meets my needs and tastes, i will consider it. i'm sure i can't say the same for you.

OK, could you just for once, answer me this...

How am I supposed to back up my assertions in your mind? I've showed you several forms of proof over the years, which you dismiss one by one based on technicalities. You speak of long term reliability being different than initial quality. I agree 100%. But there are no comprehensive long term quality studies out there. Wonder why? Because long term quality is very subjective, and very dependent on the vehicle's owner. Thus it is virtually immeasureable. So your assertions about long term reliability end up being, in reality, an unfounded opinion. How then are we supposed to determine, objectively, that one car is of higher quality than another?

[Boxer6SVX]

*dodges all the mudslinging*

There is so much hoohah arguing around here.... for the love of god... seriously... wow.

Thanks for the hijacking....

[Landshark]

Originally Posted by Shadow248

You speak of long term reliability being different than initial quality. I agree 100%. But there are no comprehensive long term quality studies out there. Wonder why? Because long term quality is very subjective, and very dependent on the vehicle's owner. Thus it is virtually immeasureable. So your assertions about long term reliability end up being, in reality, an unfounded opinion. How then are we supposed to determine, objectively, that one car is of higher quality than another?

that's why i base it off my own experiences as a person who follows scheduled vehicle maintenance and treats their car well. i also base these opinions using friends and family who do the same. i don't account for people who "drive their vehicle into the ground." i've owned several GMs, parents have owned several, and various friends. all were pretty much craptastic, too, and these are people who take care of their vehicles.

if it makes you feel any better, i won't be buying any Audi's or Benz's anytime soon, either, based on my parent's experiences with them.

post all the studies, polls, surveys, testimonials, promises, and stories you want, but i wouldn't buy another GM for a LONG time until i see some long-term evidence they improved.

i guess they would also have to make a car i would actually want to own, too.