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  #16  
Old 11-15-2005, 01:11 AM
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SilverSpear SilverSpear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red SVX 92
To be honest, though, I think it's the fundamentalist Muslims that are going a little crazy on their interpretations this time.
The Muslims have a saying in the Qor'an which states : "Back up your brother either he was right or he was wrong"

The War on Afghanistan and Iraq were the cause of all the bombings and terrorist attacks you see in the whole Middle East and the World. Either Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, KSA, Quatar, Kuwait, Lebanon (we had around 12 terrorist attacks between bombings and celebrities suicide so far this year).

USA does not understand that the Muslims are tight people in their beliefs. Their prayers are crucial to be respected on time, fasting, etc... so if one muslim is killed for example by a foreigner, ALL the others in all the muslim countries revolt to that! Comparing to Christianity, we do not always respect our Churches timings and prayers and even fasting periods... Do we?

I won't be even surprised if the World and especially USA had more muslim terrorist attacks like Sep 11
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  #17  
Old 11-15-2005, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthewmongan
is forced freedom true freedom?
There is no true freedom. Society must have rules to survive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthewmongan
who made America the dictator of morality and justice?
All of the billions and billions of American tax dollars that we spread throughout the world gave us the right. You can't suck from the American money nipple and expect not to get disciplined once in a while. If you want us not to tell you what to do, stop taking the money and solve your own problems. No aid for natural disasters, no aid for food.

The UN was given the task of preventing future wars, but as all political organizations, they have turned into a self-feeding corruption machine. They had the ability to prevent the Iraq war and they screwed it up royally.

None of this matters anyway because China will be the only superpower 20 years from now.

Doug
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  #18  
Old 11-15-2005, 10:34 AM
Red SVX 92 Red SVX 92 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mohrds
There is no true freedom. Society must have rules to survive.
Indeed. The US republic (it's not really a democracy, but it's closer than Korea's "Democratic People's Republic") aims to equalize and maximize freedoms across the board for the majority of its citizens, while many forms of government provide a minority with significantly more freedom while taking away the freedoms of the majority. Just like the way that the person with the most freedom in a monarchy was the king.
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  #19  
Old 11-15-2005, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSpear
The War on Afghanistan and Iraq were the cause of all the bombings and terrorist attacks you see in the whole Middle East and the World. Either Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, KSA, Quatar, Kuwait, Lebanon (we had around 12 terrorist attacks between bombings and celebrities suicide so far this year).

USA does not understand that the Muslims are tight people in their beliefs. Their prayers are crucial to be respected on time, fasting, etc... so if one muslim is killed for example by a foreigner, ALL the others in all the muslim countries revolt to that! Comparing to Christianity, we do not always respect our Churches timings and prayers and even fasting periods... Do we?

I won't be even surprised if the World and especially USA had more muslim terrorist attacks like Sep 11
Funny, I could have sworn that that Ramzi Yousef, an Iraqi intelligence agent unsuccessfully bombed the World Trade Center on February 26, 1993 with a cyanide gas bomb meant to kill tens of thousands in NYC.

That was a revenge attack for the coalition forces defending Kuwait from Iraq's invasion (Just like we defended France from Germany in WW2).

If the first Iraq war would have followed standard history of war, Saddam would have been ousted from office back then. But unfortunately the UN got involved and wanted everyone to apologize and be nice to each other.

There would have been no war in Afghanistan or Iraq if those countries would have handed over the people wanted in conjunction with the 2nd WTC bombings. Again, the UN did nothing to peacefully bring the people responsible to trial.

This entire mess is the results of misunderstandings and lack of cooperation. The US was called evil for defending Kuwait, however we weren't evil for defending Europe from Germany??

Doug
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  #20  
Old 11-15-2005, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red SVX 92
Indeed. The US republic (it's not really a democracy, but it's closer than Korea's "Democratic People's Republic") aims to equalize and maximize freedoms across the board for the majority of its citizens, while many forms of government provide a minority with significantly more freedom while taking away the freedoms of the majority. Just like the way that the person with the most freedom in a monarchy was the king.
There never will be a true democracy, it is a Utopian dream.

BTW: What governments give freedoms to the minorities while taking it away from the majority? I can't imagine that government lasting too long.

Doug
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  #21  
Old 11-15-2005, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mohrds
All of the billions and billions of American tax dollars that we spread throughout the world gave us the right. You can't suck from the American money nipple and expect not to get disciplined once in a while. If you want us not to tell you what to do, stop taking the money and solve your own problems. No aid for natural disasters, no aid for food.
I don't know Doug. I suck on nipples all the time and I never expect to get disciplined. If the notion of discipline crept up into the nipple's mind, I'd kick it to the curb. A nipple alone can't suck on itself.

I'm glad N. Korea is taking your advice though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohrds
None of this matters anyway because China will be the only superpower 20 years from now.

Doug
That's good to hear. I'm tired of the played out, 'ze Terrorists are coming'. Can't wait for the day that 'Pinko Commie Scum' comes back into fashion.
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  #22  
Old 11-15-2005, 01:25 PM
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Electrophil Electrophil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red SVX 92
COMPLETELY WRONG!!!! You complete idiot.... You BUY the GUN to SHOOT the OWNER, NOT the DOG! Eliminate the problem at the source! Besides, that's animal cruelty.
But if you kill the owner, who the heck is going to bury that mangy mutt? It'll smell up the whole neighborhood!!

I ain't burying it!
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Is Bush in jail yet? (Looks frantically at watch, then back up) How about now? Now? Come onnnnnn...... Someone freeze me until January, this wait is killing me.
Update: 09 January, and still not in jail! Wassup??

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  #23  
Old 11-15-2005, 02:25 PM
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I studied Yousef a little in a political science class. Yousef was born in Pakistan and spent the majority of his young years with his father who was an immigrant worker in Kuwait.

The "Iraqi Conspiracy" did not originate until late 1999 by some neo-con radio talk show guy circulating the coincidence that the WTC was bombed on the same day of the Kuwaiti liberation anniversary.

And it did fall on the same day, but this was no more intended than the coincidence that most of the 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia. Just as Saudi Arabia residency was the easiest way to get into the United States, so did that arbitrary date in February work out to bomb the WTC. Yousef didn't really have a true political ideology past the traditional vice with Israel, and he stated this several times. He hated Israel, and he hated the United States and he wanted to topple one tower onto the other. That was it. He said this several times. He never mentioned anything about Kuwait. It's in the transcripts.

We all have a tendency to make everything into a conspiracy. But most of the time, there isn't. Rumsfield hates Saddam. He always has since he was insulted by Saddam back in 1988. (Remember, we were close Allies with this "ruthless dictator" for decades.

Rumsfield wanted to drive into Baghdad in 1990 but was stopped dead in his tracks by logical minds in control then, who said "No, it will be a quagmire, and we'll be stuck there for decades fighting continuously regenerating freedom fighters." (Direct Quote: General Norman Schwarzkopf- A true American Hero.) Rumsfield did get his way on bombing the retreating Iraqi forces, which was also wanted by Schwarzkopf.

Cheney came from Haliburton which profits, by it's subsidiary Kelogg, Brown, and Root via war. Also on Haliburton's (Cheney's) mind is the oil industry. So he jumps on the bandwagon with Rumsfield. They gang up on a weak minded Bush Jr., and voila!

That's why we went to war in Iraq. And it isn't a "conspiracy". It's mostly just idiocy, greed, and hurt feelings. Haliburton is in Iraq while Kelogg, Brown and Root have exclusive "no bid" contracts there, and Rumsfield took out that guy who called him a "Highstrung twit". No conspiracy necessary. I guarantee you that Bush Sr. was saying all along: "don't do it!! You will regret it. There's a reason why I didn't!!"

As for the "justification" of the war. Whichever one we are using this week.... There may be a touch of a conspiracy there. Personally, I'm not sure on that one. There was a lot of fear circulating here in the states then over 9/11, and we are historically famous for smacking around countries when we get scared. The Administration really didn't need to prod the other branches of Government too hard on that one.
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Is Bush in jail yet? (Looks frantically at watch, then back up) How about now? Now? Come onnnnnn...... Someone freeze me until January, this wait is killing me.
Update: 09 January, and still not in jail! Wassup??

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  #24  
Old 11-15-2005, 02:37 PM
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Matthewmongan Matthewmongan is offline
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you know what i got to say to this thread

"aint got no car!
got to ride the buss!
all the way home yall
got to listen to the guss fuss

the rent is due
but i know ill come through
got me a couple of dollars
Guess what im going to do?

Shake shake shake shake my booty
AT THE DISCO!"
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  #25  
Old 11-15-2005, 03:12 PM
Bipa
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Originally Posted by Phast SVX

Originally Posted by Landshark
Bipa, you sure are critical of the U.S. as a Canuckistani living in Germany.

your pictures are funny, but what's even funnier is that Canada spends a smaller share of their national wealth on military obligations than any NATO nation except Luxembourg and Iceland (which has no military at all).


sit back, have a Tim Horton's donut (or some struedel), and relax. we'll take care of Canada. and if Germany gets out of line again, we'll take care of them, too.


my same thoughts... i already lost one grandfather over there to the germans trying to take over the world and "clense" it.....i dont think you have any room to talk sir.



Although there are a lot of statements made by various folk to which I wish to respond, this particular post demands my first reply. The rest of you will just have to wait.

First off, I’m not a sir. I’m a woman. Check my profile and you’ll see a photo of me. I make it clear in the additional information so there’s no excuse. Secondly, I am not German, not even of German background. Thirdly, everyone knows that the majority of Germans were not Nazis. And even if I were German, what the heck does ethnic background or where I’ve been living for the past three years have to do with the discussion at hand? Sounds like potential bigotry and prejudice there.

I passed over Landshark’s “German” remark because of the obvious tongue-in-cheek tone, plus he put a little wink at the end to make sure I understood his intentions. Your tone, however, is completely different, and thus merits a different response.

Now, shall we play the “my family lost more in WWII than your family” game? I’ll tell you right now before we even begin that I win this one almost every time. See, my family got hammered by BOTH Hitler AND Stalin. And then just as the survivors thought they had a chance to rebuild normal lives, they got hammered again by Roosevelt and Churchill! All four men are directly responsible for nearly wiping out my entire family on both sides.

One grandfather was a Jewish doctor and ended up in a concentration camp in Maydanek, Poland. He didn’t survive the experience. His wife and two infant children (one of which was my Mom) hid in closets and attics and cellars whenever the Nazi soldiers came searching. All three made it to Canada as refugees after spending about 5 years in a UN Displaced Persons refugee camp in Austria.

A great-uncle (Christian) fought with a special non-German division of the SS. They had been promised training and equipment, experienced officers, and were given a further promise that they would only be sent to fight the Bolshevik Russians on the Eastern Front. These men saw it as an opportunity to fight off the Bolsheviks and keep the Russians from taking over their homelands. The Germans saw it as a way of bolstering the fight against the Red Army. The Germans kept their promises and there is no record of this division ever fighting against any other opponent. At the end of the war, with defeat certain and the victorious Red Army rapidly approaching, the remaining survivors split up and skedaddled across half of Europe in order to surrender to either the Americans or the Brits. They knew that the Russians would simply execute them on the spot. The group with my great-uncle finally found a small advance party of Brits and surrendered en masse. The poor British platoon commander found himself in a situation with hundreds of POWs and only a handful of soldiers to watch over them. My great-uncle’s group was lucky and ended up spending two years as POWs in Rimini, Italy (near Rome), before being set free and allowed into England rather than being forced into Russian hands. The highest ranking British officer refused to hand them over when the Russians requested transfer of the prisoners in 1945, and again in 1946. The family was later reunited through the auspices of the Red Cross.

Others of the same division were not so lucky as “Operation Keelhaul” was set in motion. In the words of Troop Sergeant Ronald Arthur Tee, who served in the 56th Reconnaissance Regiment, 78th "Battleaxe" Division of the British 1st, (later the 8th), Army from 1941 to 1946, written just as the war ended in 1945: “Anyway, they were in a pretty bad shape because our job was to round them up, get them on the trucks and take them to the Russians. Well of course you can imagine what would happen to them. Matter of fact, some of our boys were driving the trucks that were taking them and I think there were at least twelve suicides on the way.”

About 22,000 men of this division are recorded as having surrendered to Allied troops at the end of WWII. 7,100 ended up in Rimini and were later freed. The other 15,000 remain unaccounted for to this day.

My other grandfather (Christian, a lawyer by profession) fought the Red Army as an independent guerilla fighter in the forests of central Europe where he was reportedly killed in combat. As the Russians overran central Europe and took over lands they had NOT controlled previously, many people fought for their independence against communism. They continued to fight after the war throughout the 1950’s, even though Roosevelt and Churchill decided to give away those previously independent countries to Russia at the Yalta Conference in 1945. (another great joint US/British strategic move, eh?) Stalin’s troops rounded up the intelligentsia and either killed them outright, or sent them to work camps in Sibera. Most of my family on both sides was lost in this way, including a great-grandfather, and lots of uncles and aunts and other family members (priests, nuns, doctors, lawyers, teachers etc).

Grandma and her two young sons (one was my Dad) managed to hitch a ride with a half-empty German troop train returning from the Eastern Front with wounded. The Germans would allow refugees fleeing from the Communist Red Army to get on the trains. Wounded German soldiers would help take care of the kids, finding food or even just trying to entertain the kids on the long, boring yet scary trip. At the end of the line, they were allowed to travel on empty ammo trucks going back for supplies. My Dad’s first experience with Americans was when US planes tried to bomb them. He was around 8 years old. Later he got candy and chocolate from nice US soldiers at the UN DP refugee camp in Bavaria which was in the US zone of control. I've seen a photo of him in a group of children greeting Mrs. Eleanor Roosevelt when she toured the refugee camp in 1948.

Let’s get back to “Keelhaul”. In 1945, General Dwight Eisenhower ordered that "Operation Keelhaul" be put into effect. This involved rounding up and shipping back to "their countries of origin" ALL the refugees from any area which was now under Russian control, including the new regions which were given over to the Russians at Yalta. Men, women, children, civilian or soldier, it made no difference even if they had been officially fighting with the Allies! People from Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, half of Germany, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Rumania, half of Ukraine, and Bulgaria were all to be sent into Russian hands and quite likely given death sentences, either by immediate execution or overwork and malnutrition in the slave labour camps in Siberia. These people were rounded up by British and American soldiers, often at bayonet- or gun-point, forced into freight and cattle cars and shipped off to a horrible future. Probably some of the very same cattle cars as used previously by the Nazis were now used by the Allies to ship innocent people to their deaths. There was no accurate count kept but the MINIMUM figure was 2,000,000 people and a figure of up to 5,000,000 has been discussed. Many others had survived Stalin’s artificially created famine of 1932/33 when over 15 million people were purposely starved to death. It is no wonder they left and didn’t want to go back.

A small number of officers, both British and American, disobeyed direct orders and refused to hand over refugees when the Russians came to take them away. That is how both my grandmothers and their children (including my Mom and Dad), my great-uncle and a few other family members survived to make it to Canada. Others weren’t so fortunate.

I had the privilege of meeting a great-aunt in 1986 when I traveled to the USSR. She endured 15 years working as forced slave labour in a Siberian coal mine after WWII. The area where she had lived had come under Russian control in 1945. Her crime: she was a Catholic nun and primary school teacher.

I could go on, but this is getting a little too emotional and painful for me.

Let me end by saying: I got a lot of room to talk, sir!!!

Last edited by Bipa; 11-15-2005 at 04:31 PM.
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  #26  
Old 11-15-2005, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrophil
I studied Yousef a little in a political science class. Yousef was born in Pakistan and spent the majority of his young years with his father who was an immigrant worker in Kuwait.

The "Iraqi Conspiracy" did not originate until late 1999 by some neo-con radio talk show guy circulating the coincidence that the WTC was bombed on the same day of the Kuwaiti liberation anniversary.
Gee, it seems pretty obvious you had a radically liberal professor. Unfortunately they tend to congregate at universities instead of having to face the real world. With all those young, impressionable minds, they are turning normal people into Republican-hating liberals who believe that Fahrenheit 911 was a documentary

Yousef was making WMDs in his place in New Jersey in 1995 where he planned to poison public water supplies. Luckily, his chemicals caught fire and he was forced to flee the scene. His computer that was left behind showed had the data of his involvement and his political backings. Unfortunately this was during the Clinton Administration and the information was not shared (Including the plane hijacking plans executed on 9/11) between the FBI, NSA, or any other Pentagon residents.

In mid 1993, four "Arabs" were arrested in connection with the WTC-1 bombing. The media reported that they were a group of Islamic militants with no state ties. As the truth came out, the Left wing media chose to stick with their original story instead of losing face.

The FBI has documents from Yousef found in 1995 that laid out the plans for a commercial airline attack. Go up to anyone on the street and ask them who ignored the pre-9/11 clues and most of them will say "Bush". That is an amazing statement about the "Free" press and how they manipulate, edit, and package the news so it serves their interests.

Doug
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  #27  
Old 11-15-2005, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bipa
[COLOR=DarkRed]Originally Posted by Phast SVX
Let me end by saying: I got a lot of room to talk, sir!!!
I'm pretty sure phil was making that statement to Alan, not you. I think the two of you share the same feelings.

Phil, please correct me if I'm wrong.
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1994 LSi (4/93)
Bordeaux Pearl; 198,000 miles; Mods: Weight reduction.

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  #28  
Old 11-15-2005, 05:44 PM
Red SVX 92 Red SVX 92 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mohrds
There never will be a true democracy, it is a Utopian dream.

BTW: What governments give freedoms to the minorities while taking it away from the majority? I can't imagine that government lasting too long.

Doug
The empires and monarchies of the old Western Europe lasted a pretty long time... Maybe my nomenclature was not clear... I was not referring to a racial or ethnic minority, but rather a politically powerful and/or wealthy minority, much like the princes of Saudi Arabia today, or the communist party leaders in China, Korea, and Russia. One person's freedom will interfere with another person's freedom. My freedom to beat someone senseless on the street limits their freedom to walk around without being harmed. So, societies tend to limit an individual's freedoms when they infringe on others' freedoms. I just feel that the US is above average on equalizing freedoms like these as compared to, say, a communist government (I hate to even call it communist, because the "communist" governments of today fail to operate as a true communism should), which severely limits the freedoms of the majority to allow the minority in power extensive freedoms.
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  #29  
Old 11-15-2005, 07:15 PM
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Electrophil Electrophil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mohrds
Gee, it seems pretty obvious you had a radically liberal professor. Unfortunately they tend to congregate at universities instead of having to face the real world. With all those young, impressionable minds, they are turning normal people into Republican-hating liberals who believe that Fahrenheit 911 was a documentary

Yousef was making WMDs in his place in New Jersey in 1995 where he planned to poison public water supplies. Luckily, his chemicals caught fire and he was forced to flee the scene. His computer that was left behind showed had the data of his involvement and his political backings. Unfortunately this was during the Clinton Administration and the information was not shared (Including the plane hijacking plans executed on 9/11) between the FBI, NSA, or any other Pentagon residents.

In mid 1993, four "Arabs" were arrested in connection with the WTC-1 bombing. The media reported that they were a group of Islamic militants with no state ties. As the truth came out, the Left wing media chose to stick with their original story instead of losing face.

The FBI has documents from Yousef found in 1995 that laid out the plans for a commercial airline attack. Go up to anyone on the street and ask them who ignored the pre-9/11 clues and most of them will say "Bush". That is an amazing statement about the "Free" press and how they manipulate, edit, and package the news so it serves their interests.

Doug
Your right about that media and the propaganda. Especially Fox! They don't even try to hide which way they lean.
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Is Bush in jail yet? (Looks frantically at watch, then back up) How about now? Now? Come onnnnnn...... Someone freeze me until January, this wait is killing me.
Update: 09 January, and still not in jail! Wassup??

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  #30  
Old 11-15-2005, 07:44 PM
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Electrophil Electrophil is offline
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On a serious note to answer the professor thing. I was raised Republican, joined the Navy (Enlisted), and retired from there. My favorite President is Reagan, my least favorite is Carter. I went for my degree after retiring from the Navy. I always felt the same way about our Universities of being highly liberal.

But then I went to a University.

It finally dawned on me that it can't be a coincidence that the higher a person is educated, the more likely they are to be a democrat, and usually highly accurate on what's going on in our world.

A good example:

A few years back, just as the buzz was starting on Iraq and the WMD scare, I was taking a Latin American History class. The Professor, a PhD, came out of the blue and spent 3 classes on exactly how the war with Iraq will play out. We asked him repeatedly "how do you know,,,, oh come on!!"

He always replied "Because it is exactly how history predicts it."

He was Right on it, No WMD's, the emergence of a "Zarqawi" and an Al Queda branch in Iraq, a swift victory followed by unending attacks from continuously regenerating "freedom fighters"....... dead on... down to every detail.... except two.

1: Iraqi Civil War by Nov 2004
2: Presidential Impeachment by Sept 2006.

A few months back I ran into him and started joking around with him and hit him up. I said "Well, you were off on that Civil War, you get a C-".

He replied: "What do you call it when Iraqi Civilians run around blowing up other Iraqi Civilians?"

I said: "I call them terrorists."

He replied: "Which is exactly what the Britains called Samuel Adams and his gang as they threw tea around dressed up like Native Americans."

Touche..... If Sept 2006 turns out accurate, I'll be falling out.

There must be weight given to education. And if the majority of PhD's lean toward the left..... There must be a reason. They weren't "born" that way because it costs money to go that far. And most big money....especially "old" money leans right. What caused these guys to start leaning left like I finally did? It can't be persuasion from false propaganda... because I watch Fox News daily, and I haven't switched back.
__________________
Robert

Is Bush in jail yet? (Looks frantically at watch, then back up) How about now? Now? Come onnnnnn...... Someone freeze me until January, this wait is killing me.
Update: 09 January, and still not in jail! Wassup??

1992 Teal LS-L - 160k (Now new and improved with perfect paint!)
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