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  #1  
Old 11-05-2004, 11:42 AM
BoondockSVX
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shadow248
It seems that the tone in this country is that there is such thing as someone who "doesn't have a religion". That's simply not true. Religion is a system of beliefs. Atheists want everyone to think that they have no religion, but by the literal definition of religion, the belief of no religion is in itself, a religion. So then why do Christians have to yield to Atheists? Why is the religion of Atheism more important than Christianity?
Wow. That's 100% wrong. Completely. Totally. You're not understanding what athiests believe AT ALL. A religon is not only a set of moral values... it's ALSO a belief in a HIGHER POWER. Atheisists also have moral values, but the values aren't 'set' by one person/book/cult. Most of them make up their own minds and figure out what makes sense to them, UNLIKE the religous masses who blindly repeat whatever their religous leader tells them. Atheists DO NOT believe in a higher power.

So the idea of calling 'atheism' a religion is about as absurd as calling any AWD vehicle a Subaru. Sure, most Subarus have AWD, but that doesn't mean that every AWD vehicle is a Subaru. Atheism is a belief system, and the MAIN difference is that they LACK any sort of belief in a higher power.

Here's a dictionary to help you understand:

Religion:

# Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.


Atheism:
1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

Another common ignorant statement I hear quite often is 'atheists claim there is no god! But there has to be a god in order for htem to say that!', which is also pretty retarded. If I say "I don't believe that a fuzzy purple monster lives in your anus and shoots fireballs at only one type of mosquito", that doesn't mean that the purple monster exists, it means that I don't believe there is a purple monster.

- Jim

PS: I'm not an atheist. Nor am I a christian. I'm just some guy, ya know?
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  #2  
Old 11-05-2004, 02:34 PM
Breck SVX
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You seem to have left out the rest of the definition.
Religion:

1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


The American Heritage® Dictionary

If an athiest wanted to persue their cause/principle with devotion, it seems as if that would qualify. Maybe saying "That's 100% wrong. Completely. Totally. You're not understanding what athiests believe AT ALL" was a bit on the extreme side.

-Alex

Last edited by Breck SVX; 11-05-2004 at 02:40 PM.
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  #3  
Old 11-05-2004, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Breck SVX
You seem to have left out the rest of the definition.
Religion:

1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


The American Heritage® Dictionary

If an athiest wanted to persue their cause/principle with devotion, it seems as if that would qualify. Maybe saying "That's 100% wrong. Completely. Totally. You're not understanding what athiests believe AT ALL" was a bit on the extreme side.

-Alex
Speaking as what many would concider an athiest, it's very hard to persue nothing with "with zeal or conscientious devotion"
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  #4  
Old 11-05-2004, 04:39 PM
BoondockSVX
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Quote:
Originally posted by Breck SVX
You seem to have left out the rest of the definition.
Religion:

1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


The American Heritage® Dictionary

If an athiest wanted to persue their cause/principle with devotion, it seems as if that would qualify. Maybe saying "That's 100% wrong. Completely. Totally. You're not understanding what athiests believe AT ALL" was a bit on the extreme side.

-Alex
nope. 100% wrong in this context. If you're referring to Atheism vs Religion, the MAIN difference is the belief or LACK of belief in a spiritual/supernatural/higher power. This means that the ONLY definition of religion that could even come close to applying to atheism is #4, but... uh... no, apply some common sense. #4 is good for explaining how deeply you feel about something, such as cars. "Internal Combustion is my religon" or music "Hendrix is my savior!" stuff like that. You're using the wrong logic again. Just because religon IS a strong set of beliefs, does not mean that ALL strong sets of beliefs are religon. Look at the whole Subaru/AWD thing again. If you looked up Subaru in the pretend dictionary, it would say a few things, and hten have "A turbo awd car from japan". Sure. But NOT ALL turbo AWD cars from japan are subarus.

- Jim
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  #5  
Old 11-05-2004, 04:39 PM
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Landshark Landshark is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by drivemusicnow

First i really don't think this was necessary... second of all, i believe theres MANY, MANY more people that deserve that disrespect than I do, and third you really don't seem to be in a position to hand out these criticisms..

Boondock beat me too the definition look up, but he has a decent point. however if you remember also, "religious freedom" is something we enjoy in the US... however if you look at some of the issues here.. SURE most christians are against gay marriage... so then they should not be in a gay marriage.. they shouldn't make it in issue for those who don't share the same beliefs. I understand how they don't like it, however civil rights of citizens should not be effected by religious beliefs of others. seperation of church and state if you remember. and if you look at some of the other issues bush is for, such as prayer in school commandments displayed in federal buildings, and federal funding of religious charities. all of which, i personally wouldn't mind. however MANY people of this nation would.
and my MAIN point was that his arguement was a total fallacy.
its this simple, really: the majority of the U.S. is Christian, so Christian values are what the masses believe in. i believe everyone has the right to be happy and do what they want, but unfortunately the masses who vote do not apparently. this country was founded on Christian beliefs and those beliefs still linger today.

if you moved to Saudi Arabia, you'd have a hard time selling bikinis because the majority of that country is ........ Islamic, who believe women should be covered up. i'm sure a small majority would like to wear bikinis, but since the majority rules, no dice.
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  #6  
Old 11-05-2004, 04:41 PM
BoondockSVX
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Quote:
Originally posted by Landshark
but since the majority rules, no dice.
But that isn't what america is about. America is about FREEDOM, and equality. This means that in America you have the freedom to hold or express an unpopular opinion (read MINORITY), without getting thrown in jail.

If it was always 'majority rules', we would still have slaves, women wouldn't be allowed to vote, etc etc etc.

- Jim
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  #7  
Old 11-05-2004, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX


But that isn't what america is about. America is about FREEDOM, and equality. This means that in America you have the freedom to hold or express an unpopular opinion (read MINORITY), without getting thrown in jail.

If it was always 'majority rules', we would still have slaves, women wouldn't be allowed to vote, etc etc etc.

- Jim
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  #8  
Old 11-05-2004, 06:59 PM
Breck SVX
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX


nope. 100% wrong in this context. If you're referring to Atheism vs Religion, the MAIN difference is the belief or LACK of belief in a spiritual/supernatural/higher power. This means that the ONLY definition of religion that could even come close to applying to atheism is #4, but... uh... no, apply some common sense. #4 is good for explaining how deeply you feel about something, such as cars. "Internal Combustion is my religon" or music "Hendrix is my savior!" stuff like that. You're using the wrong logic again. Just because religon IS a strong set of beliefs, does not mean that ALL strong sets of beliefs are religon. Look at the whole Subaru/AWD thing again. If you looked up Subaru in the pretend dictionary, it would say a few things, and hten have "A turbo awd car from japan". Sure. But NOT ALL turbo AWD cars from japan are subarus.

- Jim

Last edited by Breck SVX; 11-05-2004 at 07:10 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-05-2004, 08:51 PM
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Landshark Landshark is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
But that isn't what america is about. America is about FREEDOM, and equality. This means that in America you have the freedom to hold or express an unpopular opinion (read MINORITY), without getting thrown in jail.

If it was always 'majority rules', we would still have slaves, women wouldn't be allowed to vote, etc etc etc.

- Jim
there was a time when we DID have slaves, and women could NOT vote - because that's what the majority wanted. people were also accused of witchcraft and hung without a trial. over time attitudes changed what the majority wanted.

of course you are free to have a minority opinion without getting thrown in jail, but don't expect it to become a law if it comes to a vote.
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  #10  
Old 11-06-2004, 04:10 AM
BoondockSVX
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Quote:
Originally posted by Landshark
of course you are free to have a minority opinion without getting thrown in jail, but don't expect it to become a law if it comes to a vote.
No, but the law protects it.
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  #11  
Old 11-06-2004, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX


No, but the law protects it.
....because the majority thinks that is what's right (freedom of speech.)


shall we continue?
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  #12  
Old 11-06-2004, 09:52 PM
Shadow248 Shadow248 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoondockSVX
Wow. That's 100% wrong. Completely. Totally. You're not understanding what athiests believe AT ALL. A religon is not only a set of moral values... it's ALSO a belief in a HIGHER POWER. Atheisists also have moral values, but the values aren't 'set' by one person/book/cult. Most of them make up their own minds and figure out what makes sense to them, UNLIKE the religous masses who blindly repeat whatever their religous leader tells them. Atheists DO NOT believe in a higher power.
Trust me, you don't want to argue with me on this. This is something i have felt strongly about for a long time, and I have done more research on this than many people in the Theology field. Atheism fits the legal description of religion to a tee. The legal definition does not include anything about a belief in a higher power. It is quite simply defined as a set of beliefs as pertaining to conduct and moral values. That's it.

To make it simple, let's take your statement "atheists do not believe in a higher power" if you believe that that is what makes Atheism not a religion, then I can say "Christians do not believe in the absence of a higher power"...so then you would have to call christianity not a religion. Basically, according to the legal definition, if you say the words "believe in" when describing Atheism...it's a religion.

Quote:
Originally posted by drivemusicnow
First i really don't think this was necessary... second of all, i believe theres MANY, MANY more people that deserve that disrespect than I do,
Absolutely true.

Quote:
Originally posted by drivemusicnow
and third you really don't seem to be in a position to hand out these criticisms..
Niether are you.

Quote:
Originally posted by BurgundyBeast
Speaking as what many would concider an athiest, it's very hard to persue nothing with "with zeal or conscientious devotion"
And it's hard to believe you when many of your fellow "non-believers" "religiously" pursue the removal of religion from the world around them (with zeal and conscientious devotion). Christians have just as much a right to practice their religion as do you, so (and no offense to you in particular because i don't see you trying to get christianity banned) you need to tell your fellow non-believers to relax and deal with life rather than trying to ruin it for others.
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  #13  
Old 11-06-2004, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shadow248
And it's hard to believe you when many of your fellow "non-believers" "religiously" pursue the removal of religion from the world around them (with zeal and conscientious devotion). Christians have just as much a right to practice their religion as do you, so (and no offense to you in particular because i don't see you trying to get christianity banned) you need to tell your fellow non-believers to relax and deal with life rather than trying to ruin it for others.
Unfortunately that's the problem with being an atheist, there's no such thing as a fellow non-believer. I have my own ideology, and they have theirs. I tend to discuss issues of faith only with people who believe in something, whatever their religion may be.

On the issue of removing religion, if you're talking about banning prayer in the classroom. Honestly I don't see the need for it. I was Christian, and I don't remember ever being told that I needed to say a prayer at any particular time during the day. Actually, growing up I was always told to say my prayers before I went to sleep at night. To me, religion is a family thing, practice it at home, together.

If you are talking about other times where people have attempted to remove religion (ex. removing "In God We Trust" from money) I am torn on the issues. These have blended the line between religion and tradition. For some I side with tradition and think we should keep them, for others I think we should get rid off them. This is not the place for that however, if you wish to have more of a discussion it is going to be a private one.
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  #14  
Old 11-06-2004, 11:54 PM
BoondockSVX
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shadow248

Trust me, you don't want to argue with me on this. This is something i have felt strongly about for a long time, and I have done more research on this than many people in the Theology field. Atheism fits the legal description of religion to a tee.
No. I don't care how you 'feel' about it, the truth is that atheists do not believe in anything spiritual, supernatural, etc. Relgion REQUIRES teh supernatural/spiritual, it REQUIRES the 'more to the eye'. Atheists DENY that there's more to it all. I really don't understand how a man of such high education (more research than the theology field? Give me a freakin' break!) can fail to understand this.

Anyway, don't bother replying, it's quite apparent that you're completely wrong and set upon being so.

- Jim
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Old 11-07-2004, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shadow248


And it's hard to believe you when many of your fellow "non-believers" "religiously" pursue the removal of religion from the world around them (with zeal and conscientious devotion). Christians have just as much a right to practice their religion as do you, so (and no offense to you in particular because i don't see you trying to get christianity banned) you need to tell your fellow non-believers to relax and deal with life rather than trying to ruin it for others.

Neither are you
First, You are absolutely right.. Christians have just as much a right to practice their religion as does anyone.. however why should others not have rights, because of something they don't believe in? HOW many times have we been through civil rights movements??? how many more do we have to go through?!?

I don't want Christianity banned... I'm myself Christian. (PM me if you want to object) I just have a large problem with people thinking they know better than the person making the decision.

I don't think I critized another member
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