Why does this car like so much timing?

[cdigerlando]

I went ahead and setup a map very similar to LANs stage 3 map in my Tec 2. Thank you LAN. If you are ever in town I at least owe you dinner. Anyway, The map works great with a few minor adjustments at my low boost levels. The Tec does not have the programming resolution that the Jecs system has. I believe his is 16x16. The tec is 8x8. But there are a lot of areas in the curves that are flat or inclines. I basically just saved points between major changes for changes in timing.

Who would think that to resolve the operational issues of the SVX with FI you would have to add timing? Ass backwards. I don't think anyone (except for LAN) figured that out. Who would think you could add that much boost to a 10:1 compression car? It's really insane. I need to finish up my minor mods and get to the speed shop for the intercooler and exhaust. Then the Dyno.

BTW. The SVX is running beautiful. Very drivable and responsive. No stalling. The Level 10 tranny really hooks up the power. I can't wait to start driving it to work again!

Take Care.

[Tony117s]

excellent news, and great job. can't wait to see the numbers.

[NikFu S.]

The SVX is weird.

[Phast SVX]

Originally Posted by cdigerlando

I went ahead and setup a map very similar to LANs stage 3 map in my Tec 2. Thank you LAN. If you are ever in town I at least owe you dinner. Anyway, The map works great with a few minor adjustments at my low boost levels. The Tec does not have the programming resolution that the Jecs system has. I believe his is 16x16. The tec is 8x8. But there are a lot of areas in the curves that are flat or inclines. I basically just saved points between major changes for changes in timing.

Who would think that to resolve the operational issues of the SVX with FI you would have to add timing? Ass backwards. I don't think anyone (except for LAN) figured that out. Who would think you could add that much boost to a 10:1 compression car? It's really insane. I need to finish up my minor mods and get to the speed shop for the intercooler and exhaust. Then the Dyno.

BTW. The SVX is running beautiful. Very drivable and responsive. No stalling. The Level 10 tranny really hooks up the power. I can't wait to start driving it to work again!

Take Care.

Glad to hear! Sorry i had not replied to your email yet, ive had a very busy week at work as lowering EPS estimates always makes for a stressfully costcutting week, had to freeze a ton of **** :/
Anyways its good to hear, and from the sounds of it you did what i was gonna suggest by lowering the sens. I have heard audible knock on my car when i was and i have an open wastegate, i would not worry to much about not being able to hear it. Best of luck

phil

[cdigerlando]

Originally Posted by Phast SVX

I have heard audible knock on my car when i was and i have an open wastegate, i would not worry to much about not being able to hear it. Best of luck

phil

So its pretty loud huh? Sometimes I hear a buzz, but I think it is just an exhaust leak.

What do you do for a living?

[cdigerlando]

Under what conditions did you experience knock?

[Phast SVX]

LOL ya you could say its loud, its external dump. when i ran e85 i ran out ouf fuel as expected and took the car to knock the first time i floored it, had some pinging that was definetly audible but not detonation. I immeaditatly lifted.

Im a financial analyst for a corp.

phil

[Phast SVX]

Originally Posted by cdigerlando

So its pretty loud huh? Sometimes I hear a buzz, but I think it is just an exhaust leak.

What do you do for a living?

ill see if i can get an little vid clip of what the car sounds like at WOT. Ive been wanting to hear it out side the car as well
phil

[svxistentialist]

Originally Posted by Phast SVX

LOL ya you could say its loud, its external dump. when i ran e85 i ran out ouf fuel as expected and took the car to knock the first time i floored it, had some pinging that was definetly audible but not detonation. I immeaditatly lifted.

Im a financial analyst for a corp.

phil

Phil, I'm open for correction on this, but it has always been my opinion that the knock sensors can detect pinging long before your ears will hear it.

If you can hear pinging, you are getting plenty of detonation, so be careful.

Joe

[cdigerlando]

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

Phil, I'm open for correction on this, but it has always been my opinion that the knock sensors can detect pinging long before your ears will hear it.

If you can hear pinging, you are getting plenty of detonation, so be careful.

Joe

Your right. There are some signs prior to actual detonation that the detonation sensor picks up on. He's probably OK as long as he lets up really quick. Most EMS tuners recommend tuning using audible knock. The important thing is that when you hear it you let up. Running out of fuel is my biggest fear. That is when you get a radical change in conditions. I have completely disconnected my fuel pump control from the SVX ECU. I use my Tec II to run the stock fuel pump relay. The fuel pump is powered directly from the ignition. This way I will prevent the fuel pump from loosing power unless the engine is off! I've also intalled a walbro fuel pump and 550 cc/min fuel injectors. I'm running very rich through all of this tuning. Later I will try to connect my wideband to the tec 2 to fine tune the fuel ratios using volumetric efficiency. The Tec 2 has the ablility to do this automatically.

I'm still wondering why our engine likes so much timing? Cam profiles? What a mystery.

[svxistentialist]

Originally Posted by cdigerlando

Your right. There are some signs prior to actual detonation that the detonation sensor picks up on. He's probably OK as long as he lets up really quick. Most EMS tuners recommend tuning using audible knock. The important thing is that when you hear it you let up. Running out of fuel is my biggest fear. That is when you get a radical change in conditions. I have completely disconnected my fuel pump control from the SVX ECU. I use my Tec II to run the stock fuel pump relay. The fuel pump is powered directly from the ignition. This way I will prevent the fuel pump from loosing power unless the engine is off! I've also intalled a walbro fuel pump and 550 cc/min fuel injectors. I'm running very rich through all of this tuning. Later I will try to connect my wideband to the tec 2 to fine tune the fuel ratios using volumetric efficiency. The Tec 2 has the ablility to do this automatically.

I'm still wondering why our engine likes so much timing? Cam profiles? What a mystery.

My guess Chuck, it is caused by the high C/R of 10 to 1. With a higher propensity for pinging with the resulting higher internal pressures the 10:1 ratio applies, the fuel map has a wide range of timing/retard to be able to cope with possible detonation. That may also be why we have 2 knock sensors, while most engines make do with one.

But Michael understand these issues better, he may have an idea. That's just my guess.

Joe

[Phast SVX]

As i said before the only time i reached audible knock was on a short stint with E85, i do not do it often(or ever) and it was not a severe situation. thanks for the concern though Most of the time we tune to audible knock and then work back like chuck stated.

phil

[cdigerlando]

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

My guess Chuck, it is caused by the high C/R of 10 to 1. With a higher propensity for pinging with the resulting higher internal pressures the 10:1 ratio applies, the fuel map has a wide range of timing/retard to be able to cope with possible detonation. That may also be why we have 2 knock sensors, while most engines make do with one.

But Michael understand these issues better, he may have an idea. That's just my guess.

Joe

Yes but basically what LAN has done is increase the timing, in theory, making the propensity for detonation worse. What we are finding is that the SVX needs more timing. At least with the low AFRs we are now throwing at the engine. My SVX did not have enough timing to run boost?????? What was happening is my EGTs were going through the roof at low timing advance. The mystery is why the EG33 is so much different than other engines. Even other subaru engines, NA and turbo built alike. All folks I have talked to think I am crazy. I just agree with them, and say but it works!

Also, my car does not use the factory ECU. The detonation sensors are not pulling timing in my case. I'm sure LANs case too.

[oab_au]

Chuck, what numbers are you looking at for the advance curve. I would reckond that it would run about 10*BTDC at idle, about 36*BTCD at full throttle/power, and probably 55/65*BTDC at a light throttle cruise. Boost pressure would reduce the advance.

What do you see?

Harvey.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

My guess Chuck, it is caused by the high C/R of 10 to 1. With a higher propensity for pinging with the resulting higher internal pressures the 10:1 ratio applies, the fuel map has a wide range of timing/retard to be able to cope with possible detonation. That may also be why we have 2 knock sensors, while most engines make do with one.

But Michael understand these issues better, he may have an idea. That's just my guess.

Joe

Greetings Joe,.

Presuming "so much timing" means, a required/abnormal large margin/range of available adjustment is required, I agree that you are on the right track. However we must assume that the question does not relate to a required high degree/amount of maximum advance.

There is also the fact that the car was introduced during a period of rather confused petrol grading and with some markets having limited access to the better product.

Cheers, Trevor.