MotorTrend Article - '05 Evolution MR vs '05 Subaru STI!!!

[Chiketkd]

Originally posted by Shadow248
See this is where I get the idea that you guys don't know what you're talking about. Everyone here tries to tell me that my car doesn't handle worth a crap. You're flat out wrong. It's like you try to inflate how the STI handles so maybe that makes up for other things? I don't know why that is, but here's the facts.

Subaru WRX STI (from Car&Driver sept 2004)
Skidpad: .90g
1/4mile: 13.5sec @ 101mph

Trans Am WS6 (from Car&Driver feb 2000)
Skidpad: .88g
1/4mile: 13.2sec @108mph

So the STI has me by a hair. So where's this huge handling deficit? Considering the WS6 has a "dinosaur live axle rear" and the STI has a "state of the art independent rear", it seems like this should be an embarrassment. Or wasn't I supposed to see that?

Now consider that my car has 420hp...that means that if the AutoX track I happen to be racing on has any kind of straightaway, forget it. Oh and don't worry about stopping at the end of that straightaway, the WS6 has the very same acclaimed braking system as the C5 Vette. On top of that, I can put out a mere $800 for the handling package that goes with the engine package I got, and my car will pull over 1g on the skidpad. Enough said.

Shadow,

This is what I like. You've presented an argument and backed it up with some hard facts. Now we're getting to an educated debate...

You know, I used to think that skidpad figures were all there was to handling - MotorTrend in their test of a '00 SVT Lightning found 0.88g's of grip on the skid pad.

However, after owning that truck for 1.5 years, I could tell you flat out that a base WRX that makes ~0.85g's on the skid pad would be able to run circles around my Lightning or former '95 Camaro at the AutoX track.

Why, because of the lighter weight and lower center of gravity making it more tossable in turns, and the fact that American muscle cars/trucks have so much of their weight located infront of the front axle.

To get a better idea of how your T/A would stack up at an AutoX circuit, the slalom figure is a better yard-stick to go by as it more correctly illustrates a car's transitioning ability. Looking at my 2001 Road & Track 'Sports & GT Cars' mag I get the following comparative figures for the slalom -

'00 Viper GTS ACR 63.6mph (0.98g)
'01 911 Turbo 67.8mph (0.96g)
'01 Corvette Z06 67.1mph (1.00g)
'00 BMW Z8 62.3mph (0.92g)
'00 Honda S2000 65.9mph (0.90g)
'00 Cobra R 63.8mph (0.99g)
'01 Firebird Firehawk (w/ handling package) 61.8mph (0.88g)

Why did I post these numbers? To illustrate that skidpad figures are only a small part of the big picture when it comes to handling rapid, tight transitions in the slalom or AutoX track.

As you may know, power is of little value at an AutoX event as most circuits are set up in parking lots, and the max speeds reached are about 30-35mph. I've seen 390hp '03 Cobras (w/ the ind rear suspension), get slower raw times than stock Mini Cooper S' or Celica GT-S'.

BTW, look at the article at the start of this thread to see just how killer the STI/EVO are in the slalom: 69.7mph & 70.1mph respectively!!! These econoboxes/ turbo'd weedwackers eat tight turns and decreasing radius corners for lunch. That's why they're so damn awesome to watch at AutoX events. And invariably when one enters an event, it wins!

-Chike

P.S. Let's keep this debate clean from here on. I respect you Shadow and I've always been keen to read your threads in the past about your T/A.

[Landshark]

Originally posted by Shadow248
$35,000?!

You would seriously pay that for a Mitsubishi Lancer? $35k puts it damn near Firehawk and 2005 GTO territory. At that price there are better choices. Geez I wouldn't even pay $30k for that thing. Maybe $25k. Now I would pay $30k for an STI but that's TOPS. Regardless of how fast the thing is or how it handles, it's still a little ricemobile. I couldn't live with myself after paying that much for a silly little car like that.

Better yet, put the 35k towards a 1 year old vette. Now your cruisin in style. Actually, there's a 2002 ZO6 for sale at a local lot for $38k. No comparison there.

here's where it all starts.

a WS6/SS/GTO are good bang-for-the-buck cars. the STi/EVO are good bang-for-the-buck cars. they are not really comparable because they are made for different purposes.

you say "bah, why get this, when you can get that". he's why - those GM cars are completely impractical for my purposes. fun, yes. fast, yes. go in the snow, no. hold four adults, no. slice through traffic, no. seriously increase power with simple bolt-on mods, no.

here is your Lingenfelter upgrade:
"420 BHP/400 lbs-ft of torque

Package includes:

Engine removal, inspection and disassembly
Lingenfelter CNC porting and polishing of cylinder heads
LPE valve springs and titanium retainers
Stainless steel intake and exhaust valves
Three angle valve job, correct setting of spring tensions
Custom designed LPE hydraulic roller camshaft
Professional installation, testing and tuning
Ported throttle body
Port matched intake manifold
Borla stainless steel exhaust system"

i'd rather just slap on an exhaust, plug in the Accessport and load a new map. if i need more power (probably not), i put in a bigger turbo and load a new map.

so, in conclusion, a GM muscle car is fast and good value for the money. it just isn't what i want, so stop trying to tell me it is. m'kay? thanks.

[Shadow248]

Originally posted by Chiketkd
This is what I like. You've presented an argument and backed it up with some hard facts. Now we're getting to an educated debate...

You know, I used to think that skidpad figures were all there was to handling - MotorTrend in their test of a '00 SVT Lightning found 0.88g's of grip on the skid pad.

However, after owning that truck for 1.5 years, I could tell you flat out that a base WRX that makes ~0.85g's on the skid pad would be able to run circles around my Lightning or former '95 Camaro at the AutoX track.

Why, because of the lighter weight and lower center of gravity making it more tossable in turns, and the fact that American muscle cars/trucks have so much of their weight located infront of the front axle.

To get a better idea of how your T/A would stack up at an AutoX circuit, the slalom figure is a better yard-stick to go by as it more correctly illustrates a car's transitioning ability. Looking at my 2001 Road & Track 'Sports & GT Cars' mag I get the following comparative figures for the slalom -

'00 Viper GTS ACR 63.6mph (0.98g)
'01 911 Turbo 67.8mph (0.96g)
'01 Corvette Z06 67.1mph (1.00g)
'00 BMW Z8 62.3mph (0.92g)
'00 Honda S2000 65.9mph (0.90g)
'00 Cobra R 63.8mph (0.99g)
'01 Firebird Firehawk (w/ handling package) 61.8mph (0.88g)

Why did I post these numbers? To illustrate that skidpad figures are only a small part of the big picture when it comes to handling rapid, tight transitions in the slalom or AutoX track.

As you may know, power is of little value at an AutoX event as most circuits are set up in parking lots, and the max speeds reached are about 30-35mph. I've seen 390hp '03 Cobras (w/ the ind rear suspension), get slower raw times than stock Mini Cooper S' or Celica GT-S'.

BTW, look at the article at the start of this thread to see just how killer the STI/EVO are in the slalom: 69.7mph & 70.1mph respectively!!! These econoboxes/ turbo'd weedwackers eat tight turns and decreasing radius corners for lunch. That's why they're so damn awesome to watch at AutoX events. And invariably when one enters an event, it wins!

-Chike

I didn't read that article. I did find one however pitting the STI vs. the EVO in the current Car&Driver. I noted one of their biggest complaints was the STI felt unstable in turns. The EVO was more stable but exhibited significant understeer. I have no doubt that both cars are better equipped to handle turns, but my point is that they don't have the torque to pull them out onto the straights that a WS6 has. One thing every test i've read about these cars has said is that their power is EXTREMELY slow to come on. Turbo lag upwards of 2 seconds is not something that will help you coming out of the turn you so excellently handled. In contrast, after I "struggle" through the turn, I nail the gas and instantaneously over 400hp launches me into the straight. As for most of the AutoX courses I've seen, they all at least had some form of a decent straightaway. Some longer than others. It's needed to even out the field. Some cars accel in turning, others in power. The WS6 is equipped to get to speed extremely fast, and get back down from speed extremely fast. It handles just fine, but handling was not the car's priority. It more than makes up for that in power.

My car accels at the drag strip. Yours accel at AutoX events. I got that. But just like when an EVO visits a dragstrip and surprises some, when my WS6 visits the AutoX course, those EVO and STI drivers that laugh at me at the start will be sweatin beads after they see my times. I can't believe how uninformed import drivers are of American cars handling abilities. You think our cars have granite wheels and tree limbs for axles? Given what the WS6 can do with a live axle, i'd say you shouldn't brag too much about your IRS cars, because they're not as far ahead as they should be, given all the extra money and work that is put into an IRS.

This will all be a moot point by spring, by then i'll have the hotckis handling package and you REALLY won't want me at the AutoX track.

Originally posted by Landshark
a WS6/SS/GTO are good bang-for-the-buck cars. the STi/EVO are good bang-for-the-buck cars. they are not really comparable because they are made for different purposes.

you say "bah, why get this, when you can get that". he's why - those GM cars are completely impractical for my purposes. fun, yes. fast, yes. go in the snow, no. hold four adults, no. slice through traffic, no. seriously increase power with simple bolt-on mods, no.

Dude, I'm not trying to tell you that you should be driving a WS6. You can buy what you want and I don't disrespect you for that. The thing I have a problem with...paying $35,000 for an EVO, or even $30,000 for an STI. If you want a fast car, you have much better choices in that range. If you want a car that can go in all weather, you have better choices in that range. If you want a practical car, you don't have to pay near that much to have much better choices.

I thought you were one of those people who doesn't slice through traffic because that's dangerous.

One of the biggest attractions to the WS6/SS/GTO and even Mustangs is the fact that you can get serious power out of simple bolt ons. Geez that stupid SC Cobra can see almost 500hp with a new exhaust and SC pulley. Simply putting on a Headers-back exhaust and a high-flow intake airlid and Maf on a stock WS6 will yield another 50 horsepower. That's about $1000 for 50 horsepower. Is there anything you can do to the STI for $1000 or less and get 50hp? Without annihilating the engine, I can't think of any.

I never told you a GM muscle car is what you need. I did say however, that you DON'T need a $35,000 glorified economy car.

[Chiketkd]

Originally posted by Shadow248
Simply putting on a Headers-back exhaust and a high-flow intake airlid and Maf on a stock WS6 will yield another 50 horsepower. That's about $1000 for 50 horsepower. Is there anything you can do to the STI for $1000 or less and get 50hp? Without annihilating the engine, I can't think of any.

Honestly Shadow, turbo'd and s/c cars are some of the most inexpensive and easiest to modify.

On an EVO/STI, a simple $300 ECU reflash coupled with a $40 manual boost controller, can result in an increase of over 60 reliable horsepower at all four wheels. Add in a $200 downpipe, and a $50 cat delete pipe and that figure can climb by another 30hp. And remember, this is all work that you can do yourself w/o having to remove the heads from your motor and having it in a shop for a week.

Lightly modded EVOs (with less than $2500 invested) run the 1/4 in the low 12's. Heavily modded evos with over 10K in mods have been featured in Sport Compact Car and run the 1/4 in low 11s...

-Chike

[Landshark]

Originally posted by Shadow248
my point is that they don't have the torque to pull them out onto the straights that a WS6 has. One thing every test i've read about these cars has said is that their power is EXTREMELY slow to come on. Turbo lag upwards of 2 seconds

the STi has 300ft-lbs of torque out of the box. from all accounts i've read on NASIOC, they pull like a V8. i've heard the EVO is laggy, running at 19lbs of boost to get its power, but the STi only runs 16. is also has the larger engine. the WRX is laggy, but not the STi.

Is there anything you can do to the STI for $1000 or less and get 50hp? Without annihilating the engine, I can't think of any.

exhaust and Accessport is $1650 for 50hp. i don't remember what Stage3 costs or performance gains, but you don't need to buy the Accessport again, just download the new maps.

The thing I have a problem with...paying $35,000 for an EVO, or even $30,000 for an STI. If you want a fast car, you have much better choices in that range. If you want a car that can go in all weather, you have better choices in that range. If you want a practical car, you don't have to pay near that much to have much better choices.

please give me suggestions, then.

[Royal Tiger]

I'm trying to remain nuetral. All I pointed out was the American's lack of decent mid size cars as a larger picture of their faults. You both have made good and bad comments. I think though Shark's last is a very accurate one. Name another car for $35k that can do what a STi can. Carry 4 people, a couple of golf bags, get close to 20mpg, and do it in ALL kinds of weather. I respect the T/A, but a Supra Turbo is just as fast with a turbo 6. In SCC they have runs articles with a bunch of 1000+hp Supras. I still have the issue with the 1156hp 300ZX Turbo. I'm sure you can get a T/A with that kind of power. Different paths to the same goal. But I would say a GT-R is a better representative from the 2 door stable as it has massive power and AWD.

[Shadow248]

Originally posted by Chiketkd
Honestly Shadow, turbo'd and s/c cars are some of the most inexpensive and easiest to modify.

On an EVO/STI, a simple $300 ECU reflash coupled with a $40 manual boost controller, can result in an increase of over 60 reliable horsepower at all four wheels. Add in a $200 downpipe, and a $50 cat delete pipe and that figure can climb by another 30hp. And remember, this is all work that you can do yourself w/o having to remove the heads from your motor and having it in a shop for a week.

Lightly modded EVOs (with less than $2500 invested) run the 1/4 in the low 12's. Heavily modded evos with over 10K in mods have been featured in Sport Compact Car and run the 1/4 in low 11s...

-Chike

Sorry but any car running more than 10lbs of boost is not "reliable". At pressures like 16 and 19lbs, all kinds of things can happen. Geez even mitsubishi admits that 19lbs is "within an inch of death" for that EVO's motor. I can only imagine what kind of power my LS1 would be putting out if it were built as much as the EVO and STI motors, and running 19lbs of pressure. I know a guy (goes by "jammin" on LS1tech) who has a twin turbo LS1 in his WS6 running 14psi. He dynoed over 1200hp at the wheels. Hasn't run it at the track so far. I don't know where that falls inside the LS1's tolerance envelope, but it's not real close to the edge. Even in an engine built like the LS1, it's still far from a reliable way to run.

So to summarize my long-winded response, doing anything to those engines that increases boost is not what anyone would consider a reliable way to increase power.

Originally posted by Landshark
the STi has 300ft-lbs of torque out of the box. from all accounts i've read on NASIOC, they pull like a V8. i've heard the EVO is laggy, running at 19lbs of boost to get its power, but the STi only runs 16. is also has the larger engine. the WRX is laggy, but not the STi.

According to both Car&Driver and Road&Track, the STI actually had more lag than the EVO. However they did both say that the STI's increased displacement made the lag more bearable.

Originally posted by Landshark
please give me suggestions, then.

Gladly. What is most important to you?

All of these offer more comfort, all weather ability, and more space:

Infiniti G35 sedan: Fully equipped it can be had for well under $35k and that gets you more interior room, much better appointments, and a better, quieter ride. Yes, it is AWD. Plus you don't have to pay for maintenance on a quirky turbo motor. Too much? Try a Maxima.

Acura TL: Fully equipped it falls right around $35k and get's you all the premium appointments just like the G35, but in case you have a problem with nissan, here's a honda. Too much? Try an accord.

Pontiac G6: Fully loaded and AWD it falls just under $30k with leather, a premium sound system, a 260hp 3.9L V6, and a really nifty retractable roof. I know you don't care because it's a GM product and therefore is not good enough for you. But I highly suggest this one for the day you realize your wrong.

All of these cars can do 0-60 in about 6 seconds, and you don't have to worry about high maintenance motors.

I'm sure there are more, even better suggestions, but I have other things to do. So there you go.

Originally posted by PA_SVX
I'm trying to remain nuetral. All I pointed out was the American's lack of decent mid size cars as a larger picture of their faults. You both have made good and bad comments. I think though Shark's last is a very accurate one. Name another car for $35k that can do what a STi can. Carry 4 people, a couple of golf bags, get close to 20mpg, and do it in ALL kinds of weather.

I just did. Actually no...the cars I named get at least 20mpg.

Originally posted by PA_SVX
I respect the T/A, but a Supra Turbo is just as fast with a turbo 6. In SCC they have runs articles with a bunch of 1000+hp Supras. I still have the issue with the 1156hp 300ZX Turbo. I'm sure you can get a T/A with that kind of power. Different paths to the same goal.

The Supra turbo is not as fast as the WS6. The best stock time i've ever heard of for the Supra TT is 13.3, and doing a quick search the best I see listed online is 13.5. The best stock time i've ever heard of for a WS6 is 12.9, search around and you'll see most fall in the 13.0 - 13.4 range. Yes I know it's a V6, thank you. Let's put a turbo on my V8 and see what happens.

Another important note, the supras have major low-end torque deficits. They are highway warriors, but can't hang from a dig. There's a guy on LS1tech with a 900hp built Supra TT and a 650hp Supercharged Camaro SS. His Camaro easily edges out the Supra. A 650hp LS1 can break into high 10's. The Supra needs nearly 1000hp to do that.

Originally posted by PA_SVX
But I would say a GT-R is a better representative from the 2 door stable as it has massive power and AWD.

In 1995, when the 4.5th generation F-body was being planned, there was an idea thrown around about offering an AWD version. They do have the drivetrain to do that, however NO ONE was even the slightest bit interested. It's heavy, more expensive to build and maintain, and less fun. Now they are tossing the idea around again for the 2007 GTO/Camaro platform. Again no one really wants it. The 2005 G6-L and G6-GTP, Grand Prix GXP and Bonneville GXP will all come standard with AWD. That makes alot more sense because people don't buy those cars and park them in a garage for half the year.

[solarsvx]

my eyes !! i think i have read books in the time it took me to read all this crap.


i have a wrx !! your hurting my feelings here LOL.

whatever you guys are reading from,, are just magazines and there all biased in some way ,, just fyi

[drivemusicnow]

Originally posted by Shadow248

Sorry but any car running more than 10lbs of boost is not "reliable". At pressures like 16 and 19lbs, all kinds of things can happen. Geez even mitsubishi admits that 19lbs is "within an inch of death" for that EVO's motor. I can only imagine what kind of power my LS1 would be putting out if it were built as much as the EVO and STI motors, and running 19lbs of pressure. I know a guy (goes by "jammin" on LS1tech) who has a twin turbo LS1 in his WS6 running 14psi. He dynoed over 1200hp at the wheels. Hasn't run it at the track so far. I don't know where that falls inside the LS1's tolerance envelope, but it's not real close to the edge. Even in an engine built like the LS1, it's still far from a reliable way to run.

So to summarize my long-winded response, doing anything to those engines that increases boost is not what anyone would consider a reliable way to increase power.

WHAT?!?!?! 10 lbs of boost has been run on stock engines for how many years now?? where the hell might this come from?? And if mitsu was really worried about 19 lbs of boost, why did they just turn it up to 20.4 lbs for their evo MR??? I'm sorry.. i have a lot of respect for real muscle cars, but there hasn't been a camaro, or T/A, or mustang thats turned my head in so long. 40% of the ones you see (or more) are v6s with people who think they're fast driving them. now.. YOU have a nice T/A, that i'd love to drive... but don't claim that all firebirds or camaro's are amazing sports cars.. they're not

This entire arguement boils down to what you consider a sports car. my personal definition would include rally based cars.. seeing as how rally is a sport.... anywho I like both.. however after driving a new GTO, and a friends trans am (some special version.. have no idea which one) I'm more impressed with the WRXs, and EVO's..

[Royal Tiger]

If GM realized that bigger motors, not forced induction is better, why do the use Superchargers on many of thier models? ION, Bonneville, Grand Prix, Park Avenue Ultra, Monte Carlo SS, etc.. If the G6 will have AWD and 260hp then that sounds like a step in the right direction. The best car you listed is the G35. I love that car. But if you put a G35x Sedan up against a STi you will still be comparing apples and oranges. The STi is much quicker. If you want a great highway runner, the G35x might be the heir apperant to our beloved SVX with more room. It comes down to what you want. GM decided it didn't want to stay in the muscle car game, we didn't. Actually we did by not buying them. The rustang lives and the Camaro doesn't, and I'm sad. But the GTO isn't a muscle car yet, and people don't see it as one yet. That may change. The Vette is a sports car. The T/A never was. A Boxster is a sports car, and the STi will never be one.

[Shadow248]

Originally posted by solarsvx
my eyes !! i think i have read books in the time it took me to read all this crap.

i have a wrx !! your hurting my feelings here LOL.

whatever you guys are reading from,, are just magazines and there all biased in some way ,, just fyi

Sorry about the long post, but that's what happens when three or four people gang up. Gotta acknowledge them all to be fair.

Hey you should be the last one complaining about support...most of the people on this site are on your side. I'm the one with hurt feelings because my car gets made fun of everyday. I know it's just stupidity and that's why i'm here.

I agree with your last point, but how else do we compare cars? I really hesitated to use Car&Driver because they are one of the most biased magazines out there, but they had some of the best things to say about the STI and EVO. So it gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Originally posted by drivemusicnow
WHAT?!?!?! 10 lbs of boost has been run on stock engines for how many years now?? where the hell might this come from?? And if mitsu was really worried about 19 lbs of boost, why did they just turn it up to 20.4 lbs for their evo MR???

Think about the engines running high boost. See this is what get's me. Turbo Eclipses, VR-4s, Supras, are all high maintenance cars. Believe me I know first hand. I've known at least one owner of each of those examples. The guy I bought my GTP from had two supra TT's...beautiful cars, but he was constantly replacing seals on both cars. Ahhh forget it i'm not going to sit here and list all the problems. Anyway, all that being said, you would still attempt to tell me that the multi-award winning engine in my T/A is unreliable. I won't have to touch a seal in that thing unless i'm completely race-building it. Yet it's unreliable?

One question, how long has the EVO MR been available? Not long. Let's wait and see about reliability at that pressure.

Originally posted by drivemusicnow
I'm sorry.. i have a lot of respect for real muscle cars, but there hasn't been a camaro, or T/A, or mustang thats turned my head in so long. 40% of the ones you see (or more) are v6s with people who think they're fast driving them. now.. YOU have a nice T/A, that i'd love to drive... but don't claim that all firebirds or camaro's are amazing sports cars.. they're not

I'm not trying to say any T/A is an amazing sports car. I'm just saying it's as much a sports car as a supra, 300ZX, RX-7...etc. I conisder them all sports cars. Sure not in the technical definition. But who cares anyway?

It is true that the majority of F-bodies sold were V6s. It's what kept the car alive so long. It was supposed to be axed for the 1989 model year. Same with the Mustang. If not for the cheapo V6 car, it would have been axed in 1987.

Originally posted by drivemusicnow
This entire arguement boils down to what you consider a sports car. my personal definition would include rally based cars.. seeing as how rally is a sport.... anywho I like both.. however after driving a new GTO, and a friends trans am (some special version.. have no idea which one) I'm more impressed with the WRXs, and EVO's..

Rally based cars to me would be "rally cars" they usually have four doors and are usually AWD. Not many sports cars are AWD and none that I know of have four doors. After driving a new GTO, the STI felt downright cheap to me.

[Royal Tiger]

I think the 400hp GTO might be nice, but it's SO bland. I'd love to get an Audi S4. It was mind blowing fast from the passenger seat, had world class interior, AWD, and was rolling $ex appeal to the ladies. Especially in black. I loved my afternoon in that car. Of course it was closer to $60k then $40k. Shame the German cars are so expensive, they kill everything else out there. Audi, BMW, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz are all great cars. I'm not so impressed with Volkswagen anymore. I know they own Audi, but sit in both and you'll see the price difference. Maybe a R32. But it's not a sports car either. $35k, AWD, and over 250hp, in a convienant hatchback body. Under $40k I'd still pick a STi as it can go fast but still has a usable back seat. I couldn't imagine putting a car seat in a T/A. A Legacy GT with some mods would be a 300+hp mid size with AWD. You'd still be under $35k. Shadow you have any firm info on the G6? Sounds like GM might actually be on to something. The ION is a POS. Even when S/C'd.

[solarsvx]

how abought a audi rs6 =>

audi has been dominating in the worlds sport car class on speed vision gt cars,, hell i dunno what class one of them LOL

[Chiketkd]

Originally posted by solarsvx
how abought a audi rs6

Those twin turbo V8 RS6's are sweet but cost upwards of 70K. Stock, they run like 12.6 in the 1/4 mile. In that price range, I'd personally opt for the 493hp E55 AMG. I've seen a stock one run 12.2 @118mph at the track in Richmond.

For the money, the STI and EVO are tough to beat in the 30-35K price range. I love the G35 sedans/coupes, but they are more comfy cruisers, than all out track ready cars.

To each their own. My wife wants a Lexus RX330 to haul the family around in comfortably. I just need a four door with a backseat for odd trips. She doesn't care if my car has a rock-hard suspension or not as she knows I'm into drag racing and AutoX.

-Chike

[Landshark]

Shadows recommendations:

G35 AWD sedan: i know many like the styling, but i don't. NA, difficult to increase power, brakes aren't going to cut it for what i want. the closest (not really) to what you think i should get.

Maxima: FWD - not an option, NA

Acura TL/Honda Accord - see Maxima

Pontiac G6 - nowhere on Pontiac's website does it say its available with AWD (traction control is not even close). 200hp from 3.5L? i already have 230hp from 3.3L

i'm not looking for heated seats and steering wheel, GPS, DVD, or powered trunklids. i want 300+hp, easily upgradeable power, hand-of-God brakes, AWD, and airconditioning. hello, STi! the auto/driver controlled center differential, cool Defi gauges, intercooler sprayer, etc. are cool, though.