PP6 (perfectpower6) on our cars?

[2006eg33]

Originally Posted by longassname

I would not recomend a piggy back system on an SVX most especially for forced induction.

The factory firmware in the SVX ECU has very little ignition timing in the primary ignition table and relies on an algorythm using the knock sensors to learn in additional timing up to a maximum specified in the ignition revision table. This system doesn't work as well as just specifying ignition timing for good performance in the primary ignition table even for naturally aspirated cars. It completely doesn't work on forced induction cars. The "aggressive" tunes which all the ECUtune versions are now were first developed to solve the problems with forced induction; we then found that doing the same thing with the stage 1's also gave much better results.

So if you are going to use a stock ECU use ECUtune firmware and forget the piggy back. If you want to do your own tuning you need a standalone.

question for LAN.

is your stage 2 tune, just a 1 tune fits all? so if 1 car has cams, and another has a turbo. they both get the same tune?

if you had a program where i could adjust the tune then burn my own chip, i would happily pay for that.

[longassname]

Yes it is a one tune fits all...but for the most part one tune really does fit all so long as the fuel injectors are able to meet the fuel demand and the mass air meter is able to measure the air ingested without being a restriction.

It's a concept which escapes a lot of people but it's true none the less. Mass air systems handle changes in engine hardware very well without the need to be retuned. The ECU is looking up the afr and ignition timing out of tables 16 columns x 16 rows with each column equaling a mass of air in the cylinder and each row equaling an rpm. When you change camshafts or add a turbo etc you are making modifications to fit a higher mass of air in each cylinder the ECU correctly measures this change and the result is it reads the afr and timing from cells in higher columns thus looking up the correct afr and ignition timing.

There are also a couple current versions of stage 3 firmware by the way. The main stage 3 firmwares use the 2006 STI yellow top injectors with two SVX air flow meters run in parallel. This removes the mass air meter as a bottle neck and is especially convenient for parallel twin turbo setups.

I do also from time to time make customized versions if you are nice. Since the advent of the aggressive tunes I don't think there is much if anything to be had by going stand alone over an ECUtune chip. None the less I think it's good for guys like icing who are inclined to do so to get it figured out so the option is there.

Originally Posted by 2006eg33

question for LAN.

is your stage 2 tune, just a 1 tune fits all? so if 1 car has cams, and another has a turbo. they both get the same tune?

if you had a program where i could adjust the tune then burn my own chip, i would happily pay for that.

[2006eg33]

Originally Posted by longassname

Yes it is a one tune fits all...but for the most part one tune really does fit all so long as the fuel injectors are able to meet the fuel demand and the mass air meter is able to measure the air ingested without being a restriction.

It's a concept which escapes a lot of people but it's true none the less. Mass air systems handle changes in engine hardware very well without the need to be retuned. The ECU is looking up the afr and ignition timing out of tables 16 columns x 16 rows with each column equaling a mass of air in the cylinder and each row equaling an rpm. When you change camshafts or add a turbo etc you are making modifications to fit a higher mass of air in each cylinder the ECU correctly measures this change and the result is it reads the afr and timing from cells in higher columns thus looking up the correct afr and ignition timing.

There are also a couple current versions of stage 3 firmware by the way. The main stage 3 firmwares use the 2006 STI yellow top injectors with two SVX air flow meters run in parallel. This removes the mass air meter as a bottle neck and is especially convenient for parallel twin turbo setups.

I do also from time to time make customized versions if you are nice. Since the advent of the aggressive tunes I don't think there is much if anything to be had by going stand alone over an ECUtune chip. None the less I think it's good for guys like icing who are inclined to do so to get it figured out so the option is there.

how will the computer know if you later on decide to switch from 370cc injectors to larger ones for more boost. or a larger mass air flow. it would seem to me the calibration for the MAF, and the injectors will be in the coding on the chip. so when the car is in open loop, and not reading the o2 sensors, and running off of predetermined tables, the fueling tables will end up out of whack and either overly rich, or overly lean.

i do plan on trying your stage 1 aggressive chip though. since my engine is stock. anything more - i think having adjustability is key.

[longassname]

You can't change injectors or mass air meters later on. You have to use the injectors and mass air meter or meters the firmware is written for.

I'm not really trying to sell my "chips" I'm just providing the requested information.

Originally Posted by 2006eg33

how will the computer know if you later on decide to switch from 370cc injectors to larger ones for more boost. or a larger mass air flow. it would seem to me the calibration for the MAF, and the injectors will be in the coding on the chip. so when the car is in open loop, and not reading the o2 sensors, and running off of predetermined tables, the fueling tables will end up out of whack and either overly rich, or overly lean.

i do plan on trying your stage 1 aggressive chip though. since my engine is stock. anything more - i think having adjustability is key.

[2006eg33]

Originally Posted by longassname

You can't change injectors or mass air meters later on. You have to use the injectors and mass air meter or meters the firmware is written for.

I'm not really trying to sell my "chips" I'm just providing the requested information.

i know, i was just trying to say there is a point when more adjustability will be needed, possibly with a MAP based system. at which point a standalone is the option, or possibly piggy back systems


if only there was a way to use the dirt cheap and readily available ford mafs. the 90mm lightning can handle alot more air then the z32 maf. they go for roughly 180 brand new.

[dragoontwo]

Originally Posted by 2006eg33

i know, i was just trying to say there is a point when more adjustability will be needed, possibly with a MAP based system. at which point a standalone is the option, or possibly piggy back systems


if only there was a way to use the dirt cheap and readily available ford mafs. the 90mm lightning can handle alot more air then the z32 maf. they go for roughly 180 brand new.

I picked up a z32 MAF used(works perfect) for $50 local. I even had a connector for it(quick release) already in my box.

[BackWoodsBob]

Originally Posted by icingdeath88

http://www.alcyone.org.uk/ssm/ecureverse.html

Years ago, some very skilled people on the forum started to pull ROM dumps and start reverse-engineering them. So some things like the ignition tables and target AFR maps were deciphered, among other things.

The Autotune feature, I have not gotten to try yet, but it's supposed to work really well. Dynomatt, whose race car has been running on a MS2 for years, highly recommended it to me, and since then they have continued to improve the software. It should work great for FI. Most MS installs use an IAT sensor, to adjust for temperature. You can even do barometric correction, for different elevations. I haven't come across many things that these MS3X ECUs can't be made able to do, and it's mostly stuff like cruise control.

I'll certainly keep this in mind, thank you!

[BackWoodsBob]

still not sure why a piggyback wouldn't be advisable when everything, spark, fuel trims, maf, and their adjustments can be tweaked little by little.

LAN, are you saying a pp6 couldn't work for ignition timing adjustments due to how the jecs ecu handles the advancement?

I really don't want to get stuck with 370 injectors.....

[icingdeath88]

Nissan Q45 MAF reportedly reads more air than any other stock MAF. The Z32 MAF reads something like 450 or 500 hp worth of air.

LAN can make a chip that uses 550cc injectors instead of 370s. That's what the stage 3 one uses. So he could do a stage 2/3 hybrid if you wanted to use a Z32 MAF and 550s.

[BackWoodsBob]

Already talked to him about customizing a rom, not exactly looking to add hundreds to the price of a chip, if I can get a piggy back working.

[2006eg33]

i see no reason why a piggy back wouldn't work on the eg33. someone just has to man up and try it.

[BackWoodsBob]

Well, if you are who I think you are you know Ivonko, he still has his PP6 he got for around 100 bones. I have an interview this week, so I might try and weasel him out of his lol.

[2006eg33]

im ez30rs over on rs25.

[BackWoodsBob]

thought so.

[BRZCory]

Originally Posted by 2006eg33

i see no reason why a piggy back wouldn't work on the eg33. someone just has to man up and try it.

Would it work? of course. They're just electronic signals, they can be fudged.

The problem comes in when the stock ECU starts to see the changed readings. It'll start to see the MAF doing strange things, and adjust accordingly. This will change the signal that the PP6 is reading, and it will adjust accordingly. That adjustment will change the MAF signal again, and you'll get into this loop where the ECU is trying to adjust to get back to factory readings on the MAF and o2, while the piggyback is fighting it trying to get to what you want it to do. All the time they're fighting over the ignition tables as well.

So, when you "set" the value in the PP6 you don't really get that value, and it constantly changes due to the ECU modifying it's signals to try and get back to zero.

This is the same problem that happens when you run a piggyback on pretty much any modern subaru. Constant fighting between the stock ECU and the piggyback.

And the whole concept of a piggyback is a half-assed bandaid fix because tuners are too newbish to tune a standalone to the level of the factory ECU. So they use a piggyback instead to modify certain signals, but leave others in tact (idle, cruising, etc).