Sub setups and trunk styling

[Johnybeas]

Originally Posted by YourConfused

I finished over a year ago.
The last 2 pics were finished pics showing the 4 subs were hidden and took up no space. My sig has atleast 100 pics from the build that I was going to use for a how to, before i got too lazy.
btw i like the pics jonnybeas posted. Question though is where is the amp that powers the subs located?

That's what I was wondering I asked the guy I'll go check see if he answered yet. I'll check your pics, I guess it was just hard to see cause the size of the pics.

[Johnybeas]

oh wow, I thought since they weren't there in that picture you hadn't put them in. That's why I was confused. I just went through the pictures. That's awesome! you didn't take up any room at all! very cool so the trunk area where the spare tire and everything usually goes works as your enclosure. That's very interesting.

[Johnybeas]

Originally Posted by Johnybeas

That's what I was wondering I asked the guy I'll go check see if he answered yet. I'll check your pics, I guess it was just hard to see cause the size of the pics.

I heard back from the guy, he mounted the amp to the back of the backseats and they are two ten inch subs. the pictures are deceiving some are taken from the back seat so that's why it looks like there are more than just 2

I think I've decided to go with this style but with 12 inch subs and probably will run the amp on the underside of the particle board where the spare tire and all are. I'm thinking body color painted and then a custom vynal covered board similar to the one I posted originally to cover the rest of the bottom of the back up to where the seats fold down. Any opinions on this??

[YourConfused]

Originally Posted by Johnybeas

I heard back from the guy, he mounted the amp to the back of the backseats and they are two ten inch subs. the pictures are deceiving some are taken from the back seat so that's why it looks like there are more than just 2

I think I've decided to go with this style but with 12 inch subs and probably will run the amp on the underside of the particle board where the spare tire and all are. I'm thinking body color painted and then a custom vynal covered board similar to the one I posted originally to cover the rest of the bottom of the back up to where the seats fold down. Any opinions on this??

OK, so based on the pics with the 2 small boxes housing the 10's you posted, I would have guessed that there was hardly enough internal volume on the boxes to support the required box size of your average 10" woofer. (Don't forget to calculate the displacement of the entire speaker when figuring box size either.)
that being said, I am not sure you can get a 12" to perform well in that configuration.

Please note that if a speaker has a recommended box size of .75-1.0 cubic feet for a 12" you will get ok sound from it. The smaller the box, the smaller the overall dynamic performance will be and tthe bottom end will suffer the most. I bring this up because the bottom end is the reason for adding a sub in the first place. I am fairly certain that any sub manufacture you talk to will give you a much larger internal volume recommendation if you can get their sound engineer to size a box based upon optimum performance, not what will work in the smallest box possible.

I am quite picky and have had manny systems in the past that have gone into the 10K to over 20K price range, but built for SQ. The best systemns didn't exactly have the smallest of sub enclosures either.
Cozykat can attest to the fact that my system is the best that she has heard, but not the loudest. I designed what i did to keep the most of what little usable trunk space was available. After seeing the pace car's trunk though I could totally see where a pair of 12's could fit in the location you are talking about. Have you seen pics opf the pace cars trunk?

[Tim]

Originally Posted by YourConfused

Please note that if a speaker has a recommended box size of .75-1.0 cubic feet for a 12" you will get ok sound from it. The smaller the box, the smaller the overall dynamic performance will be and tthe bottom end will suffer the most. I bring this up because the bottom end is the reason for adding a sub in the first place. I am fairly certain that any sub manufacture you talk to will give you a much larger internal volume recommendation if you can get their sound engineer to size a box based upon optimum performance, not what will work in the smallest box possible.

You couldn't be anymore correct. After looking at some of the fiberglass setups, particularly the ones with the JL subs in the 4 corners of the car, and I noticed they do not have enough internal volume to get them to their motor moving into their optimal range. In order to compensate for this you need to increase the power.

For instance, the subwoofer I'm running is optimal for 1cubic foot at 650w RMS. Because I am only giving it 400w RMS, I increased the box volume to 1.5 cubic feet sealed. Those who have heard it at Reading can attest that it had a very clean, smooth and natural bass extension.

If space is a concern, sealed is the way to go. Ported requires a much larger box volume as well as a long port to get it tuned correctly. Most boxes that you purchase have a very short port length and are not tuned to any specification. The type of porting will affect what kind of sound you're going for.

The lower tuning (20hz-30hz)will give you better sound quality while the higher tuning (35-45 hz) The longer the port, the lower the tuning. The box would probably be too large for the trunk of the svx unfortunately.

[Johnybeas]

ok, so since I went with the two 12 inch kicker compvr cvr12 subwoofers what kind of size do I need to do these subs justice?

I am also looking into what kind of amp I would need to power these subs and get the best sound out of them. Do I go with a mono channel since currently I only am going to be powering aftermarket subs? Or do I go with a dual or quad channel to leave options open for later upgrading the speakers as well?

What kind of power am I looking for to get out of the amp? I know I at least need a 400W amp but I'd like a clean well powered system that sounds awesome and doesn't just sound like random banging. Thanks in advance!

[Johnybeas]

Originally Posted by Tim

You couldn't be anymore correct. After looking at some of the fiberglass setups, particularly the ones with the JL subs in the 4 corners of the car, and I noticed they do not have enough internal volume to get them to their motor moving into their optimal range. In order to compensate for this you need to increase the power.

For instance, the subwoofer I'm running is optimal for 1cubic foot at 650w RMS. Because I am only giving it 400w RMS, I increased the box volume to 1.5 cubic feet sealed. Those who have heard it at Reading can attest that it had a very clean, smooth and natural bass extension.

If space is a concern, sealed is the way to go. Ported requires a much larger box volume as well as a long port to get it tuned correctly. Most boxes that you purchase have a very short port length and are not tuned to any specification. The type of porting will affect what kind of sound you're going for.

The lower tuning (20hz-30hz)will give you better sound quality while the higher tuning (35-45 hz) The longer the port, the lower the tuning. The box would probably be too large for the trunk of the svx unfortunately.

So is the consensus that I should go sealed as apposed to trying to port the enclosure?? That would actually make my life easier as this will be my first time trying to fiber glass. (not my dad's though, and he will be helping)

[YourConfused]

Originally Posted by Johnybeas

So is the consensus that I should go sealed as apposed to trying to port the enclosure?? That would actually make my life easier as this will be my first time trying to fiber glass. (not my dad's though, and he will be helping)

A sealed box requires a smaller internal volume, but usually more power to get the same db output when compared to a ported box. Aside from buying a more powerful amp to compensate, you aslo need to be aware of the thermal limits of the voice coil on your sub. Trying to fit a long port (or any port really) in a small box is a real pain, and you also have to subtract the ports volume when calculating box dimensions just like subtracting the actual displacement of the sub itself from the boxes internal volume.
A helpful and free program for you is: WinISD beta
You can input your t/s parameters and play with box sizes to determine the frequency you want to tune for.

[nsm484]

Originally Posted by Tim

For instance, the subwoofer I'm running is optimal for 1cubic foot at 650w RMS. Because I am only giving it 400w RMS, I increased the box volume to 1.5 cubic feet sealed. Those who have heard it at Reading can attest that it had a very clean, smooth and natural bass extension.

Do you have any pics of your setup? And a Brand/Models of hardware?

I want to add some thump to my Audio, but I'm not one for the Rattle my ears from 10 car lengths away sound.

Something Clean, Smooth, and Natural is what I want

[YourConfused]

Originally Posted by Johnybeas

ok, so since I went with the two 12 inch kicker compvr cvr12 subwoofers what kind of size do I need to do these subs justice?

I am also looking into what kind of amp I would need to power these subs and get the best sound out of them. Do I go with a mono channel since currently I only am going to be powering aftermarket subs? Or do I go with a dual or quad channel to leave options open for later upgrading the speakers as well?

What kind of power am I looking for to get out of the amp? I know I at least need a 400W amp but I'd like a clean well powered system that sounds awesome and doesn't just sound like random banging. Thanks in advance!

I have not bought new subs in years, and the Kicker Comp 12's (pre VR or dvc's) I have are of the mid 90's vintage. They are really happy in a 2.5 cubic ft when sharing a box(sealed), and (I wouldn't trust my memory if I were you) I think they should have been in about a 4 cubic foot box when ported with a pair of 4" tubes that were around 13.5" in length. that gave them a tuned frequency of about 35hz.
It has been well over a decade though, and your speakers are most likely nothing like the ones I am talking about, but this should atleast give you an idea.

Just a wild guess, but based on the trend i have seen over the years, the newer subs use a stronger and heavier cone. The reasoning I think is that this allows them to be in a smaller box due to the greater kenetic energy of the cone, while the loss is in the effeciency of the sub.
I have been really impressed with Ma Audio's sub amps lately. They are compact and actually put out decent power. Just remember that if you get a larger amp than you need you will not be pushing it to clipping which will sound better and make both the amp and subs last longer as the stress levels will be reduced.

[Johnybeas]

ok so I tried that program, it's kind of confusing. This is what I got plugging in closed enclosure with a Kicker C-12-4 which seems to be the right one? I'm not sure if I did it right, but here are the results:

Kicker C-12-4
Volume: 119.6
Qtc.:0.71

I did sloped cubic shape for the box with the thickest setting
board thickness: 0.025
outer dimensions
W: 0.549 m
H: 0.849 m
D1: 0.350 m
D2: 0.350 m
needed volume: 119.6

I would assume this is all in metric? so the m stands for meters and the Volume would be cubic meters?? what is qtc?
Also I don't know how to read the plots either... forgive my newbness but that's why I'm here asking questions, because I really don't know what I'm doing with this stuff! lol

Edit: clicked some random things, found standard us readings so here are the US system readings

so seeing as I don't have my SVX here right now someone who has spare time wanna measure these dimensions for me???

square box dimensions:

W: 21.63 in
H: 33.43 in
D: 13.77 in

with a total volume of 4.224 cubic ft

or a sloped cubic

W: 21.63 in
H: 33.43 in
D1: 13.77 in
D2: 13.78 in

Volume: 4.224 FT^3

So anyone wanna measure??? any ideas??

did I choose the wrong sub??? this seems kinda big after what you were saying.

[Tim]

I'm going to say 4 cubic feet is going to give you literally no trunk space. With 2 4 ohm subs, you'd probably need a monoblock amp to run in parallel for a 2 ohm load.

However, I've helped my friend install a Comp VR12 in his with a 1 cubic foot sealed enclosure and it was plenty loud. You may not even need two to be honest. It hit so hard the rear view mirror would shake and lose positioning.

I would probably recommend sticking with 1 sub, since you're going to have plenty of cone area from just a single 12. That way you save trunk space, have reasonable bump and have a larger array of amplifiers to choose from.

You can purchase a 2 channel amp and bridge it into single mode, or obtain a 4 channel amp and bridge the rears so you are running in tri-mode (2 speakers and 1 subwoofer). Bridging amps like these are typically only stable down to 4 ohms, so if you were to use the second subwoofer you'd have to wire it separately or use an amp that is 2 ohm stable (depending how you wire it).

What kind of speakers are you running in the front? Are you planning on amping them as well? I would recommend that only so that the fronts can keep up with your sub instead of getting overpowered. Nothing is worse than getting into someones car with a system that has a tinny frontstage with no midbass and has a large gap from 60-120hz.

[Tim]

Originally Posted by nsm484

Do you have any pics of your setup? And a Brand/Models of hardware?

I want to add some thump to my Audio, but I'm not one for the Rattle my ears from 10 car lengths away sound.

Something Clean, Smooth, and Natural is what I want

I can post some pictures in a few. My install is not very clean looking and i really dont have any trunk space. It just sounds good

My setup is:

Alpine 9805 (5 year old head unit with 3 preouts and 4v out)
CDT CL-61 components speakers with 3/4" silk dome tweeter and Satnet 456 crossovers
Adcom 4304 4 channel amplifier bridged into 120x2
Rear speakers deleted to allow bass to travel into cabin
Elemental Designs eD 10o.44 (dual 4 ohm voice coil running at 2 ohms) in a 1.5 cubic feet sealed enclosure
Profile CA600m (420w x1 @2ohm).

My rear deck speakers have been removed and trunk liner fabric has been laid down in between the decklid and the rear deck tray cover to prevent rattling.

Wooden baffles were made and the doors and rear side panels have been dynamatted to block road noise. The rear panels have been fully treated, while the doors have only been treated around the speaker holes and the interior panel mounts to prevent chattering from the door clips.

Crossovers are mounted in front kickpanels running fresh speaker wire into the door (major PITA)

Overall it sounds excellent. There's still a slight gap in midbass because I set my crossover for the sub relatively low (70hz) because once you start going over 60hz the sound becomes more directional. My goal was to not be able to tell that the bass was coming from the rear of the car and it was blending with the fronts.

Sealing the speaker against the door so there were no airleaks and giving it the power it needed really made them come alive so my recommendation is to carefully choose your items, but the install is probably more important than what you end up using. That's why it's so hard to come close to the Mark Levison systems. The car was built with the audio system in mind so the speaker placement on these cars have already been configured with speakers specialized for certain frequencies. We are limited by only 2 in the front unless special kickpanels are made.

[Johnybeas]

At the current time I was only planning to do the subs and get an amp and do the custom enclosures. My stock speakers still sound awesome and I've already dropped 1850 on a hydra, and still have other mods I'm planning to do this summer. So 6 new speakers would be another ass load of a bill.

To just give you an idea so far I've spent:
Audio/Video
$495.00 on the AVIC-f900bt
$150.50 on the two 12" subs
$ 20.50 on the dbldin wiring harness & antenna extender from SVXdc
Performance
$1850.00 on hydra with base maps

I still need an amp and all the wires to wire this all up, plus all my materials for the enclosures. Also though I still was planning on tinting the car, doing clear headlights and clear corners, getting the raptor HID's, finishing my blue conversion of the interior lights, clearing and smoking my tail lights, and wiring some halos in by my fog lights.

So as it sits without all the figures put in yet I'm already up to $2930.05 for my summer mod budget. I still on top of that need to buy birthday presents put a down payment on an engagement ring and ya.... lol I better be able to get a damn good job when I get home or all this money I'm spending is gonna be out the freakin window and not comin back.

So say I were to hold off on the speakers for a while but still getting an amp that could in the end handle some nice ones. What are my options?

And as for the two subs, 2 cubic foot enclosures? for each sub?? would that be ok?? or would I be ok getting away with 1 cubic foot enclosures??? Also what are the most problematic areas on the svx for rattle? where should I consider dynamating??

[Johnybeas]

getting started with this today, how thick is the fiber board supposed to be??? what exactly constitutes "medium density fiber board"