Has anyone tried pulstar sparkplugs?

[iizbeastie]

Originally Posted by kwren

No degree here but it looks like I guessed why they work better.

Why it would work better, yes, but increasing the spark would have to come from the main source of the ignition system (coil/distributor/whatever) you wouldn't be able to boost the energy at the spark plug unless each one was wired to a secondary power source like an amp - gets a signal to amplify from one input and the power to increase it from another input.

Originally Posted by kwren

Starting the fuel ignition with a larger beginning would make the complete fuel air mixture burn closer to the same time.

True, but now you have messed up your ECU's programming related to that fuel/air ratio and you have likely made it run worse.... our SVXii like many others say 91 octane min, right on the fuel door and on the dash, if you look at the manual of a dodge caravan, it tells you not to use the upper octanes and to use 89 only. The point, even if the technology allowed this to work, you would have to upgrade the rest of the system for it to work right

Originally Posted by kwren

As far as a capacitor is concerned, the pulse associated with the capacitor discharging through the coil through the spark plugs gap to ground was the reason fuel was ignited for decades before the electronic ignition. Remember the old "points and condenser" The pulse occurred when the points opened.Taking time to build up voltage on the capacitor was never a consideration. a charge on a capacitor is instantaneous and discharges a sharp sign wave as you can tell on an oscilloscope. It works with either ac voltage or "pulsating" dc voltage for a circuit for current flow.

Partially true. The reason you ground anything electronic is because the excess energy needs a place to go. With an ignition, you're forcing energy into the plug and the ground you are referring to is the path it takes, coincidentally into the fuel by doing it. A capacitor is a storage device.... it is used in places where the primary power source cannot deliver power at a high enough rate.... by doing this (in the case of these plugs) it would simply give the pulse another place to go. The only thing you would end up doing is storing energy.... delaying the first initial startup after they are installed by a couple milliseconds.
You are correct as to 'how' a capacitor works, the question pressed here is 'where' it works and what makes it work.

I think just for fun now I'm going to have to buy one and dissect it.... I'd like to know what they're trying to do.

[b3lha]

Here's something interesting:

http://www.eemsonline.co.uk/articles/10-06-08

A very recent development is the ‘Pulstar Pulse Plug’ from Enerpulse Inc of Albuquerque, New Mexico. In effect this incorporates a capacitor into the centre electrode, above the tip. According to the company, the normal heating of the plug assembly during ionisation (the process whereby the dielectric strength of the gas between the electrodes is overcome, to allow electrons to bridge it, which lasts about 5 millionths of a second) is avoided. The energy normally wasted in unnecessary heating is stored by the capacitor, which it calls a ‘Pulse Circuit’. Once ionisation is complete the capacitor discharges what is claimed to be ten times more energy for just 2 billionths of a second whereas by contrast it reckons that the normal spark event occupies 30 millionths.

We discussed contemporary spark plug technology with Ed Van Dyne of Woodward. We asked him: Is there a case for the use of an in-plug capacitor?

“All plugs have some capacitance. Adding more robs peak voltage to make more high current at breakdown. This only helps on projected surface gap plugs where that high current energy is delivered to the mixture correctly. Too much capacitance will prevent the voltage from jumping the gap, causing full load misfires. So, this is risky business if the whole ignition system, including plugs are not developed together and dyno tested on the specific engine.”

The way I see it, the SVX ignition system is well designed for our engine, but on most cars it will be getting a bit tired due to age. Restoring it to "as new" factory condition would probably provide more benefit than any aftermarket solutions on a stock engine.

If you are doing engine mods, that's a different matter. You may need to carefully redesign your ignition system to work with those mods. The same way that LAN specifies a particular type of plugs for use with his stage 3 supercharger.

Teenage kids often bolt shiny aftermarket parts onto their cars in the hope of increasing performance. But because they don't have any engineering expertise, their riced up cars are often slower than stock.

My advice is: Unless you are an expert, don't try to improve on an expert's design. If it's not working correctly, repair it, otherwise be thankful that you don't have to.

[kwren]

This has been one of the most interesting discussions for me on this form since I discovered the site!

Lots of well thought out thoughtful contributions! It really makes us think as we personally become involved for a variety of reasons. Thanks to all for your contributions!

I can't believe what just happened! The worst speller in the world... me... just spelled contributions... twice... correctly... without help from the spell checker!!!

Originally Posted by SoCal LS-L

Ok, I give up.... buy em!!! Theyre a great deal !!

Not exactly... They cost too much.
As much as I drive I could make up the difference if I actually got some value out of them.

As far as not performing as well as the ones that were made for the engine, I can't see that possibility. The Higher octane fuel... the slower the fuel burns. Igniting a larger area of the fuel air mixture would not necessarily make the mixture explode quicker but possibly a more efficient and complete burn.

I still don't know what I will do about this. Probably nothing for a while but when the temperature in my cold garage gets better, and especially if I pull the engine, watch out!

Thanks everyone!

Keith

[oab_au]

[QUOTE=kwren;586816]Previously posted:

Originally Posted by iizbeastie

The added spark simply ignites more of the fuel initially

I could see a possible advantage in that.

Keith

No degree here but it looks like I guessed why they work better.

Starting the fuel ignition with a larger beginning would make the complete fuel air mixture burn closer to the same time.

As far as a capacitor is concerned, the pulse associated with the capacitor discharging through the coil through the spark plugs gap to ground was the reason fuel was ignited for decades before the electronic ignition. Remember the old "points and condenser" The pulse occurred when the points opened.Taking time to build up voltage on the capacitor was never a consideration. a charge on a capacitor is instantaneous and discharges a sharp sign wave as you can tell on an oscilloscope. It works with either ac voltage or "pulsating" dc voltage for a circuit for current flow.

There are two different approaches in life. Learning the words... or understanding the message.
Hopefully we each have a bit of each!

Keith

Keith I think we are probably the only ones old enough to remember 'points ignition'
The capacitor was used across the points to provide a lower resistance path, as the points started to break. This prevented the rising primary voltage from arcing across the opening points, wasting energy and slowing the secondary voltage rise time.

It was the time that it took for the coils voltage to rise to around 8kv that produced all the problems that the older ignition systems had. It took about 8kv to overcome the resistance of the fuel-air mixture, once it was ionised, the resistance falls, and the voltage drops to about 3kv.

It gets Technical from here. The ignition coil has two windings, the primary (12 volts), and the secondary (Hi-voltage), they are both wound around the same iron core. The primary circuit produces the magnetic field around both windings. When the primary circuit is turned off the magnetic field collapses back through both windings, generating a voltage in both.

It is the voltage that is generated in the primary winding that slows the magnetic fields collapse. As the magnetic field moves through the primary windings it generates a current in them, that will try to put the magnetic field back up. This is the 'Inductance reactance' produced by the windings themselves.
As the voltage generated depends on the speed of flux movement. The Hi-voltage generated by the coil is slow to rise, and its voltage is reduced.

'Capacitor Discharge' ignition system were developed to overcome this slow rise time, that caused fouled plugs not to fire. This system used a higher, inverter generated, primary voltage (375 volts DC) to charge a capacitor, that was dumped into the secondary windings, producing the Hi-voltage, as the magnetic field was rising, instead of collapsing, to get around the Inductance reactance problem, giving a very fast voltage rise time, that would fire any fouled plug. As was needed by outboard motors.

The ignition system that the SVX uses is the Bosch developed 'Hi-energy system'. This gets around the slow Hi voltage rise time by reducing the amount of windings that are used in the primary circuit, to reduce the 'Inductance reactance' that slowed the Hi-voltage rise time.
To produce the same magnetic field strength with less windings meant that the current flowing in the primary had to be increased. A primary resistance of 0.7 ohm would allow a current of 20 amps to flow, but the Igniter unit that controls the coil waits till the current gets to 4/5 amps, then limits this current flow, till it turns it off to fire the spark.
Edit: I forgot about another feature that our coils have to reduce the voltage rise time. it is a diode that is in the secondary circuit, to prevent the secondary from generating a current, as the magnetic field is rising.
This is the scan from the book.


The benefits of this type is a strong magnetic field with very little inductance reactance to slow the rise time. A fast strong spark that needs no add-ons.

Harvey.

[kwren]

Harvey, the points condenser brings a some interesting memories back.
In the US air force in the early 50's and the aircraft engines had platinum points. I was an Aircraft Electrician and one of my duties was to set the points on the engine ignition systems. A duel system as a safety in case one went out. They could flip a switch and test each individual system. When an engine wasn't performing properly, they would send me out to set the points correctly. I learned to set the points visually! Yes, instead of using a gauge, which can be less than perfect, I did it by simply looking at them as I adjusted them. The ability for the crew chief to check each system individually verified that they were set correctly. That is about the extent of my "war stories"

My 58 Cadillac limousine was the only General Motors car I ever owned.
I could set the points with an allen wrench while the engine was running!
I would send it in for routine maintenance and when I got it home it was never right. That was in the "good old days" Kind of reminds you of today's mechanics, eh!

I would correctly reset the ignition points with no gauge as soon as I got it home.
To correctly set the timing... start the engine... put it in gear with the emergency break on... Give it a little gas and twist the distributor and listen. Get it to knock, back it off till it sounded right, and it was there!

Kind of miss that stuff!

Keith

PS In case you are wondering, none of my bombers ever crashed! A few belly landings, but that is about it!

[wyldnwoody44]

Even though there was some great technical insight (none of which i actually undrstood : ) ) the choice is quite easy 25$ per plug!!! not for the poor among us : )

[kwren]

..................

[b3lha]

Originally Posted by wyldnwoody44

Even though there was some great technical insight (none of which i actually undrstood : ) ) the choice is quite easy 25$ per plug!!! not for the poor among us : )

That's what standard SVX sparkplugs cost in Britain.

[intellibomb]

idk, but the site has a grip of technical info.....


http://www.pulstar.com/ignition-velocity.html


this sold me right there,,,, faster ignition = more complete fuel burning = more pow4r = better mpg (if but slightly..)

the way i see it, dont buy an svx if the cost of parts is prohibitive. and these are not THAT much more than the stock plugs.... sooo... the stock plugs last 100K mi, then dont be a cheapass and spend $20 less for a 100Kmi investment.

check the "media room" section of the site... they have lots of independant reviews includuing studies and whatnot.....

im a fim believer that just because it hasnt been done yet, doesnt mean its not better.... why reinvent the wheel? because aluminum alloy is better than steel.

[LetItSnow]

Originally Posted by intellibomb

im a fim believer that just because it hasnt been done yet, doesnt mean its not better....

...which is how we got Coke Classic.

[kwren]

Originally Posted by LetItSnow

...which is how we got Coke Classic.

Please don't try to poopo my convert!!!



Keith

[SuberNatural]

Where I work I can get Pulstar plugs ( 6 ) for about $75. I picked up a set because plugs are due and it was only about $10 more for all 6 than the other plugs I would have gotten.

A co-worker of mine installed them in his '06 (IIRC) L6 Chevy Trailblazer and had gotten about 2.5 MPG more than previous. His Blazer has 40k miles on it and he replaced AC Delco Iridium plugs.

Now I have no way of determining or worth for the install of the plugs, Just figure I would buy them since the deal. If its an 'of interest topic' I will post back after I install them.

[LetItSnow]

Originally Posted by SuberNatural

A co-worker of mine installed them in his '06 (IIRC) L6 Chevy Trailblazer and had gotten about 2.5 MPG more than previous. His Blazer has 40k miles on it and he replaced AC Delco Iridium plugs.

What gets tricky with testimonials around wear items is the comparison is usually "worn brand X" versus "new brand Y".

[SoCal LS-L]

Whats funny is on their page describing how it works:

"Engine horsepower is created from ignition velocity.
Ignition velocity refers to the growth of the combustion flame front, the speed of which determines the amount of energy released from the fuel."

Since WHEN does the energy content of a fuel depend on the speed of which it burns? A controlled burn of rocket fuel, or the explosion of such, release the same amount of energy, just in a different amount of time.

Also, theres another term for an engine combustion thats too fast.... knocking/detonation. The purpose of octane in unleaded fuel is to REDUCE the speed of combustion, which allows for more ignition advance. This miracle plug apparently counteracts this.

In terms of physics, ill say it again, you CANNOT get more energy out of a plug than you put in.... The coil on plug design is proven to be the most efficient in delivering the most spark energy possible, and theres NO plug that can deliver more spark than the coil puts out. Doesnt matter, resistors, capacitors, whatever......

But on the other hand, why would a manufacturer lie or exaggerate when trying to sell you something at probably 800% markup??

[SuberNatural]

Originally Posted by LetItSnow

What gets tricky with testimonials around wear items is the comparison is usually "worn brand X" versus "new brand Y".

I hear you on that. I am actually pulling NGK 6 series Iridiums as the car just doesn't seem to like them. So with the money I got for my "return as defective exchange at work" it only cost me $12 to get these. I tried to search for actual information not on the Pulstar site, and their is a lot more speculation than there is "I tried them and they're GARBAGE or I tried them and they're GREAT" So I figured I would give them a shot.

I figure if no improvement and no loss, no harm done. I don't believe they will make a huge difference but on the off chance they might, meh. We'll see.

I will tell you from opening the hard plastic cases they come in, that they feel like a robust plug and the porcelain bodies themselves are larger than that of the average plug. Maybe I will break out the caliper tonight to see if its just a play on my eyes lol.

-Mike