LOTR needs a thread all by itself.

[wasions]

I too, read the books several years ago, but had to read them again just before the first movie came out. I commend Peter Jackson for the work he's done, even though JRR (as I understand) didn't want the work 'theatricalized' (my word - like it? Heh.). Tolkien was a very dedicated Christian (CS Lewis was converted from atheism when they were roommates in college - or at least that's how the story goes). PJ knew that, and therefore felt compelled to portray the emotional roller-coaster of good vs. evil theme throughout. (You find that, even though a character desires to do good, he also wants to be sure that he's doing that good for the right reasons.)

As someone mentioned, Tolkein rejected any attempt to 'draw out meanings' (like some efforts to compare the Ring to the atom bomb), but later acknowledged that 'The Lord of the Rings' was, in his words, "a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconciously so at first, but conciously in the revision".

I enjoy it for it's story. I also enjoy it for the story behind the story.

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by wasions
I too, read the books several years ago, but had to read them again just before the first movie came out. I commend Peter Jackson for the work he's done, even though JRR (as I understand) didn't want the work 'theatricalized' (my word - like it? Heh.). Tolkien was a very dedicated Christian (CS Lewis was converted from atheism when they were roommates in college - or at least that's how the story goes). PJ knew that, and therefore felt compelled to portray the emotional roller-coaster of good vs. evil theme throughout. (You find that, even though a character desires to do good, he also wants to be sure that he's doing that good for the right reasons.)

As someone mentioned, Tolkein rejected any attempt to 'draw out meanings' (like some efforts to compare the Ring to the atom bomb), but later acknowledged that 'The Lord of the Rings' was, in his words, "a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconciously so at first, but conciously in the revision".

I enjoy it for it's story. I also enjoy it for the story behind the story.

I've seen suggestion that the series was based on Christian mythology, but never anything concrete. Only recently, as a matter of fact, I heard an interview with Ian McKellan on NPR. It was his opinion that you can find analogies if you try hard enough, but that Tolkein tried to avoid blatant ones.

Maybe he had never heard of this acknowledgement that you mention.

Do you have any sources? I'd be interested to see them.

[wasions]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets


I've seen suggestion that the series was based on Christian mythology, but never anything concrete. Only recently, as a matter of fact, I heard an interview with Ian McKellan on NPR. It was his opinion that you can find analogies if you try hard enough, but that Tolkein tried to avoid blatant ones.

Maybe he had never heard of this acknowledgement that you mention.

Do you have any sources? I'd be interested to see them.

I got the quote from a Breakpoint (Charles Colson) commentary, but the evidence of Tolkein's Christian belief is well known. In fact, here's one from, of all places, IslamOnLine:
http://www.islamonline.net/english/A...rticle12.shtml

Or how about this one, from a Pagan (Wiccan?) site.

Pagans love to read, and they especially love to read Fantasy and Science-fiction books. I know many Pagans who discovered their faith by reading the Dragonriders of Pern series, for instance. And if asked, many Pagans would probably list Stephen R. Lawhead, C. S. Lewis, J. R. R. Tolkein, Mercedes Lackey, Marion Zimmer Bradley, and Madeline L'Engle as some of the most influential - and best-loved - authors they've read. But all of these great authors at one time or another have claimed to be Christian, so they must surely go.
http://sannion.bravepages.com/Pagan_Christian.html

This last one is from a Alan Tung, somehow associated with Penn State University:

The last thing I wish to write about is his circle of friends, "The Inklings." Among them, was another of Christendom's most beloved authors, C.S. Lewis; Tolkein had a deep impact on Lewis' spiritual journey. By his influence, Lewis returned to the church as a confessing Christian. They were friends because of their intellect and also because of their faith. Though they didn't agree upon everything, (Tolkein thought Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia lacked depth and were mere children's stories, and they also held differing views in many things of the Christian faith, Tolkein being devoutly Roman Catholic, and Lewis a Protestant) they were lifelong friends. When Lewis died, Tolkein wrote to his daughter, "So far I have felt the normal feelings of a man of my age - like an old tree that is losing all its leaves one by one: this feels like an axe-blow near the roots."

Throughout his life Tolkein saw a deeper meaning to life, and none more beautifully expressed than in his great tale, "The Lord of the Rings".
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/a/...2/tolkien.html

It's not my intent to change your mind about Christianity in general (though God knows I would if I could), but only to show the connection of a great man to his faith.

Hope that helps.

[Mr. Pockets]

I understand that Tolkien was a devout Catholic. That's well documented enough and he hardly hid it. What I asked was for something that substantiated the claim that Tolkien specifically wrote the Lord of the Rings series as a Christian analogy.

Essentially, the only argument (not that I'm trying to start one ) I've really seen is that Tolkien was Christian, so therefore of course his books must be. I understand that an author's values are going to influence the things that they write. But I still haven't seen anything that convinces me that there is some deep Christian message in the Lord of the Rings - aside from some very broad principals that can ascribed to many value systems, some of them even better than Christian ones.

Originally posted by wasions
It's not my intent to change your mind about Christianity in general (though God knows I would if I could), but only to show the connection of a great man to his faith.

Good. Because you won't

I'm not trying to be argumentative and I'm not trying to provoke anybody. When I have an argument, I try very hard not to make it personal. It's just an exchange of information and viewpoints.

[wasions]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets
I understand that Tolkien was a devout Catholic. That's well documented enough and he hardly hid it. What I asked was for something that substantiated the claim that Tolkien specifically wrote the Lord of the Rings series as a Christian analogy.

Essentially, the only argument (not that I'm trying to start one ) I've really seen is that Tolkien was Christian, so therefore of course his books must be. I understand that an author's values are going to influence the things that they write. But I still haven't seen anything that convinces me that there is some deep Christian message in the Lord of the Rings - aside from some very broad principals that can ascribed to many value systems, some of them even better than Christian ones.



Good. Because you won't

I'm not trying to be argumentative and I'm not trying to provoke anybody. When I have an argument, I try very hard not to make it personal. It's just an exchange of information and viewpoints.

I was not able to find an author of the following quote on CSU Northridge's web site:

All this does not represent a direct influence of Tolkien's Christianity on his writing. In fact, Tolkien recognised that
much of his early work was incompatible with Christianity, particularly the material in The Silmarillion (Huh? Read on. - Steve ) (The Lord of the Rings he described as consciously planned with religious compatibility in mind). At the time of his death, he was struggling to re-write material from The Silmarillion to make it compatible with Christian philosophy.
http://www.csun.edu/~sk36711/tolkien/christianity.htm

Here's a better one fro the National Review, though admittedly a little long:

One of the most famous questions scholars have asked about Beowulf is whether it's a Christian poem; it seems to have been written by a Christian, but it deals with a pagan society. Likewise, there is no mention of God or even religion in Middle Earth. Yet Tolkien considered the book a reflection of his own faith. "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision," wrote Tolkien in 1953. "The religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism." There are many examples of this, though readers frequently overlook them. A close examination of the appendices (there are six, plus indexes and maps) reveals a detail that goes unmentioned in the main narrative: The nine companions who comprise "the fellowship of the ring" begin their fateful mission on December 25 (Christmas), and their story climaxes exactly three months later, on March 25 (in the traditional English calendar, the date of the Fall of Man, the Annunciation, and the Crucifixion). Too much can be read into all this — Tolkien insisted that his book was not an allegory — but it does carry at least a limited meaning. Tom Shippey, Tolkien's finest interpreter, calls it "a kind of signature, a personal mark of piety."

The Lord of the Rings, then, is not an explicitly Christian work, but it is entirely consistent with Christianity. This is an essential element for Tolkien. As Joseph Pearce points out in his literary biography of Tolkien, "[his] Catholicism was not an opinion to which one subscribed but a reality to which one submitted." There is nothing in what he wrote that contradicts Christian belief. (Well, there ya go. I guess that contradicts that last reference. - Steve ) Middle Earth is un-Christian only in the sense that everything coming before Christ is un-Christian.

Tolkien does more than strive to avoid contradiction, however; he filled The Lord of the Rings with patchy foreshadowings of a Christian truth that had not yet revealed itself in fullness. Early on, when Frodo says he wishes someone would kill Gollum, a pitiful beast who haunts Tolkien's heroes, Gandalf objects. "Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it," he says. "My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end." Indeed Gollum does, and he contributes to a medley of themes about knowledge, salvation, and eternity.

The Lord of the Rings may be read and enjoyed without reference to any theology whatsoever; it is a wonderful and well-told story. The movie is more or less faithful to it, but only gestures toward the deeper questions. It succeeds mainly as an exciting tale. Yet a full appreciation of Tolkien's accomplishment requires some sense of what lies behind the book.

The proclamation of any novel as the greatest of the 20th century is as much a burden as an accolade; it sets up the book for all kinds of sniping, lots of it undeserved. Yet it is impossible to deny the extraordinary fondness millions of ordinary readers have shown for The Lord of the Rings over the last five decades, and very difficult to disagree with the simple judgment of W. H. Auden: "If someone dislikes it, I shall never trust their literary judgment about anything again."
http://www.nationalreview.com/flashb...ller121802.asp

I, of course, found one or two folks out there who disagreed with this concept entirely (I think they had an agenda ) but left them for you. You can thank me later.

[Trevor]

If LOTR is to have a " thread all by itself " I claim it for Down Under.

[wasions]

Originally posted by Trevor
If LOTR is to have a " thread all by itself " I claim it for Down Under.

I'll admit that with all the TV coverage given to the making of TTT, you've been in my thoughts often, Trevor.

I'd call that a righteous claim, considering the 'source'. It's all yours!

[CigarJohnny]

The LotR books contain a story that is so universal in it's foundation that it can easily be explained it having the ideas behind it originating from almost any culture or time period. It is, after all, the universal story of good vs evil and man working with and against the higher beings. Like any timeless classic, it can be compared to any time or society that it currently being read in.

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by CigarJohnny
The LotR books contain a story that is so universal in it's foundation that it can easily be explained it having the ideas behind it originating from almost any culture or time period. It is, after all, the universal story of good vs evil and man working with and against the higher beings. Like any timeless classic, it can be compared to any time or society that it currently being read in.

I couldn't agree more, Johnny. That is exactly my conclusion, which is why I questioned Steve's assertion that the series wasa Christian analogy.

It has been brought to my attention that my questions came across as, possibly, hostile towards Christianity. That wasn't my intention. I apologize if I offended anybody.

[CigarJohnny]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets


I couldn't agree more, Johnny. That is exactly my conclusion, which is why I questioned Steve's assertion that the series wasa Christian analogy.

It has been brought to my attention that my questions came across as, possibly, hostile towards Christianity. That wasn't my intention. I apologize if I offended anybody.

Nick, those in this thread, I would assume, are of above average intelligence and as such I would hope that their minds would be open to the simple theory that even though Tolkien was a Christian, it doesn't mean that he has a christian agenda to his stories. After all, the basic idea of good vs evil goes back much furhter than that of christianity, which is, after all, a relative newcomer in the hisotry of man and religion. And I am a Christian as well as an open minded individual. Most of my beliefs, if truly known to others, would probably cause them to close their minds, hold there hands over their ears, and start chanting "lalalalalalalalalalalalala"

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by CigarJohnny
Most of my beliefs, if truly known to others, would probably cause them to close their minds, hold there hands over their ears, and start chanting "lalalalalalalalalalalalala"

I do that while reading your posts, oddly enough. I don't know why I bother - it's not like doing that keeps me from reading what you have to say/

[CigarJohnny]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets


I do that while reading your posts, oddly enough. I don't know why I bother - it's not like doing that keeps me from reading what you have to say/

HEY! There's nothing wrong with my posts!!

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by CigarJohnny
HEY! There's nothing wrong with my posts!!

LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA