Engine Bearing Failure

[Cam]

Originally Posted by Boxersix

I can easily modify the EG pan, or mke billet aftermarket ones to suit you needs. I run/own a race fabrication shop

The EJ and EG have different pan flange patterns, can't swap them.

I will send you a PM shortly. If i used a modified pan, and possibly a 14mm pump, do you think that I will run any risk of a bearing failure (i realize on paper and in use are two different things. but from an engineering perspective)? My oil clearances are goimg to be on the loose side since its a performance application.

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by Boxersix

wet sump pan capacity is always a good thing. Oil stays cooler. Depth is not the issue, it's keeping the oil near the pickup. You can only go so far down before safety becomes and issue(ground clearance/impact). Internal baffling and traps doors are what's required. Moroso makes a very nice pan for the EJ motors, all billet with cooling fins, larger capacity, and full baffling/traps doors to keep the oil at the pickup during g-loading.

I agree, the depth is not the issue, it's more the shape. The EG pan is rounded at the bottom like a soup bowl. The oil can very easily climb the walls of the pan and uncover the sump. So when I built a higher capacity pan for an EG, I worked hard to create a shape and baffles/trap doors that kept the sump covered under all conditions (corning and braking especially).

A simple test such as walking along holding the stock oil pan filled with water then stopping quickly proved that almost all the water spilled over the edge onto the floor. The same test with my new sump barely splashed any out at all.

Accusumps work, but are a failsafe in the event of total engine failure. They're not to be considered as part of the normal oiling system. Typically they should be setup so that if discharged a pressure switch kills the ignition and cuts fuel/spark to the motor because if it discharged you have a major problem. I like accusumps on dry sump setups as they act as a perfect failsafe in the event of a belt breakage (gilmer or HTD belt that is)

Jack's EG Impreza ran an Accusump, but eventually a long, high-G corner or series of corners will cause the Accusump to fully discharge as his did, and you will have no backup for your backup system!

[Boxersix]

Originally Posted by XT6Wagon

For a real drysump, wouldn't you need to modify or build a cover for the existing oil pump? Or would it work to just use a low pressure pump to supply oil to the stock pump slightly pressurised which would elimiate the pumping losses of picking the oil up under suction.

The better way to do it is to gut the stock pump, weld/modify accordingly, and use a proper pressure section in your drysump pump to provide the pressurized oil to the motor. Typically these are fed by a -12an size line(that's 12/16th's of an inch ID or 3/4") from the sump tank, and since they are not bound by OE location you are free to spec proper gerotor size,as well as total drive RPM of the pump to deliver the oil.

Cosworth's dry sump setup(which bolts inplace of the AC compressor) is a scavenge only pump that sucks oil form the sump(from thei CNC billet sump cover) and spits it to a holding tank. The oil then gravity feeds back to the OE pump. You motor is still limited to the flow of that pump and you're not benefiting from the system all that much. For the price you spend on that kit (roughly 3.5-4K usd) you can spend a little more and have a system FAR better.

Originally Posted by Cam

I will send you a PM shortly. If i used a modified pan, and possibly a 14mm pump, do you think that I will run any risk of a bearing failure (i realize on paper and in use are two different things. but from an engineering perspective)? My oil clearances are goimg to be on the loose side since its a performance application.

Cam I did get your message and will respond here for all to see. First the sandwich plate is simply a bolt on component that is positioned between your engine case and the oil filter. It screws onto the existing oil filter standoff, then the filter spins onto it. There are two ports(I/O) most are -10an but some cheap kits use -8an(too small IMO) You simply run appropriate fittings and lines off that plate to the oil cooler. Some are full flow plates, meaning all the oil from the pump passes through the plate, into the filter, out one port to the cooler, back into the plate thought the other port and then into the motor. Others have a built in thermostat that only allows oil to the cooler when the temperature reaches about 180F. I prefer the full flow units for maximum cooling, you just have to be 100% certain that the cooler you are using can flow the full amount that the pump can output, otherwise it becomes a restriction in the system.

As far as the oil pan is concerned it would be modified for larger capacity and oil movement control, baffling to prevent slosh and pickup surge, and also provide cooling. Cost I can't say for certain, but nothing I release from this shop leaves are a half assed part. I won't put my name on it unless it performs. I have a couple EG pans here to mess with. I'll make a prototype when I get back from vacation(I leave tomorrow)

Originally Posted by RallyBob

I agree, the depth is not the issue, it's more the shape. The EG pan is rounded at the bottom like a soup bowl. The oil can very easily climb the walls of the pan and uncover the sump. So when I built a higher capacity pan for an EG, I worked hard to create a shape and baffles/trap doors that kept the sump covered under all conditions (corning and braking especially).

A simple test such as walking along holding the stock oil pan filled with water then stopping quickly proved that almost all the water spilled over the edge onto the floor. The same test with my new sump barely splashed any out at all.



Jack's EG Impreza ran an Accusump, but eventually a long, high-G corner or series of corners will cause the Accusump to fully discharge as his did, and you will have no backup for your backup system!

I've seen a few pictures of your pan I believe, nice piece indeed. I've always though you and I have similar minds.

Jacks car is a nutty beast alltogether. If his accusump discharged on a long sweeper you can only imagine what would have happened if it wasn't in place I know. I have a BMWM52 2.8L race motor here that I built a few months back that just suffered a total pump failure on a long sweeper. I've got ring material up in the intake plenum!!!! Arggggggg!





I'd like to say that I would bring this oil pump stuff along with me to vacation, but If i did that I'd probably be coming home a single man as my wife would likely storm out the doors So unfortunately I'm going to have to wait to mess with this until I return. I've actually got a little free time over the first couple weeks when I return. Surprizing, as I'm typically flat out ~90 hours a week working

[dynomatt]

I picked up a decent sized oil cooler for my car today. Will try and fit it tonight before the event tomorrow. It's risky...but so is running without one I guess.

M

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by dynomatt

I picked up a decent sized oil cooler for my car today. Will try and fit it tonight before the event tomorrow. It's risky...but so is running without one I guess.

M

You have made the exactly correct and wise decision. First things first. I hope everything goes together without a hitch.

[Boxersix]

Originally Posted by dynomatt

I picked up a decent sized oil cooler for my car today. Will try and fit it tonight before the event tomorrow. It's risky...but so is running without one I guess.

M

-10 an line minimum on the Eg33 just so you know

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by Boxersix

I've seen a few pictures of your pan I believe, nice piece indeed. I've always though you and I have similar minds.

Well, if you wanted, I think I still have the templates from when I built Jack's oil pan. Might help, might not....

This is the beast, prior to welding to the stock upper pan.

Jacks car is a nutty beast alltogether. If his accusump discharged on a long sweeper you can only imagine what would have happened if it wasn't in place I know. I have a BMWM52 2.8L race motor here that I built a few months back that just suffered a total pump failure on a long sweeper. I've got ring material up in the intake plenum!!!! Arggggggg!

Between the lighter vehicle weight, suspension mods, aero mods, and wheel/tire combo (Hankook slicks on 9" rims), we figured he pulls 1.5-1.6 G's at the faster tracks (Watkins Glen, VIR). Obviously way beyond the original EG's oil system design parameters!

[Boxersix]

Originally Posted by RallyBob

Well, if you wanted, I think I still have the templates from when I built Jack's oil pan. Might help, might not....

This is the beast, prior to welding to the stock upper pan.




Between the lighter vehicle weight, suspension mods, aero mods, and wheel/tire combo (Hankook slicks on 9" rims), we figured he pulls 1.5-1.6 G's at the faster tracks (Watkins Glen, VIR). Obviously way beyond the original EG's oil system design parameters!

Yeah his car is certainly a candidate for a proper dry sump system. I had actually planned to shoot down to EFI-L with my car when my buddy was bringing his Cosworth powered 2.6L LGT down for a tune but time just didn't allow it to happen. Wanted to look over his ST2 and just bull**** about the two cars.

That picture above it what I remember seeing. Solid work my friend, right down to the bead rolls in the pan base Keep your templates though. I'll work up a design of my own(offer is much appreciated though). Working up stuff like this from scratch is what helps to keep the brain sharp and tack!

[Dessertrunner]

For reason that will become evident later we really need to get our head around this whole bearing issue or we will have to drop the top end rev. Given Matts experiance I have ZERO confidence that our engine can stand the power increase we are all chasing. I am even questioning if the engine is a tough as we all think it is.

By the way Tom were did you install the oil pressure guage? Were would everyone suggest that we plumb in the guages oil Temp and Pressure.

Tony

[TomsSVX]

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

For reason that will become evident later we really need to get our head around this whole bearing issue or we will have to drop the top end rev. Given Matts experiance I have ZERO confidence that our engine can stand the power increase we are all chasing. I am even questioning if the engine is a tough as we all think it is.

By the way Tom were did you install the oil pressure guage? Were would everyone suggest that we plumb in the guages oil Temp and Pressure.

Tony

You should tap the oil pressure sensor at the front of either oil galley on the top front of the block.

The biggest thing I can say I know about oil is temp makes the world go round. Keeping oil at proper operating temp should be your biggest concern.

Too cold, the oil stays too thick and cannot circulate properly, which will cause localized overheating and thus bearing failure or premature wear.

Too hot and you loose pressure with viscosity and you lose the lubrication properties of the oil and also the ability to take heat out of the bearings and you again will overheat them.

This is a big reason I had to have a thermostat in the motor I built for Dan.

Tom

[Dessertrunner]

Thanks Tom,
I will be interested to see how you guys go with engine bearings,
Tony

[SilverSpear]

I agree with what Tom said. Any ideal oil temperature one should aim for?

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by Boxersix

Yeah his car is certainly a candidate for a proper dry sump system. I had actually planned to shoot down to EFI-L with my car when my buddy was bringing his Cosworth powered 2.6L LGT down for a tune but time just didn't allow it to happen. Wanted to look over his ST2 and just bull**** about the two cars.

My next serious EG33 will definitely be dry sump. I won't mess around with a wet sump on a 9000+ rpm engine. I have the components picked out from Pace Products already, I would just need to design a new pan. I would probably make it a thick-rail alloy design to stiffen the crankcase a bit.

That picture above it what I remember seeing. Solid work my friend, right down to the bead rolls in the pan base Keep your templates though. I'll work up a design of my own (offer is much appreciated though). Working up stuff like this from scratch is what helps to keep the brain sharp and tack!

I fully understand, no offsense taken! I enjoy the design aspect as much as the fabrication part. And I seldom do things the same way twice, chances are if I built another wet sump I'd re-design it anyway. I know I'd modify the pickup tube location for one thing, I almost did that to Jack's but time was an issue. Horrible location really, it needs to be more centrally positioned. You can see here where the sump tube is relative to the pan's primary mass. Under hard braking all the oil is trying to escape the rear of the pan!

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

I agree with what Tom said. Any ideal oil temperature one should aim for?

I tend to shoot for 210-240° degrees F, prefering 225-230° for efficiency. After 260° things are getting too hot. And too cold is just as bad for engine wear.

[TomsSVX]

Originally Posted by RallyBob

I tend to shoot for 210-240° degrees F, prefering 225-230° for efficiency. After 260° things are getting too hot. And too cold is just as bad for engine wear.

Yup, running my M hard for a while will get about 230* but typically under210 in normal driving

Tp,