Spreading Democracy - Mission Being Accomplished!

[Electrophil]

Man I love debating politics!

Doug, the analogy with Samuel Adams was to point out "different" point of views two sides will always have. We look at our founding fathers as heros. But the other side will never do that, and history is always written by the victors. We see Adams as a successful shipping Magnate who sacrificed for the good of our new world, the Britains saw him as a smuggling terrorist who would kill little babies for a penny and was trying to weasel out of paying export taxes. Our heros are Britain's traitors. And if we had of lost, they would have been beheaded. But we won by hiding behind trees and taking pot shots at the perfect formations of the British troops, and assasinating the citizens here that were going along with the British "occupation".

Sound familiar?

We see the 9/11 attackers as the worst stench to ever spew from the hell pits of earth. They see themselves as Martyrs striving to correct wrongs in the world, and strike at our "evil empire" which supports the jews in the only way they have available to them.

Before I get slammed on this explanation, I personally see them as the worse stench to ever spew from the hell pits of earth. Yes! I support my president! The only person in America that has been fired over 9/11 in the US is that guy from "Politically incorrect" for saying basically the same thing. I guess I need to be careful.

Since we're on the topic of Samuel Adams and civil disobedience / incited violence, I thought it might be of interest to pass on a first-hand account of the skirmish in Boston which later became known as the "Boston Massacre". (The Sons of Liberty were USA's first spin-masters, and quite excellent at it!)

When reading it, keep in mind the technological ability and educational background of the common folks at that time. Then try to update it to modern times, and you'll find similar scenes being played out all over the world today, including Iraq. The biggest difference today in Iraq is that our standard of behaviour for soldiers has changed dramatically and our troops are required to put up with a lot of BS without being allowed to strike back. Back in the 1700's there was a totally different standard, and the behavioural codes allowed for much more physicality. Men were allowed to beat their wives, whites were allowed to beat their slaves, higher class or simply richer folk could have their footmen shove the poor out of their way etc etc. So it was quite common back then for a verbal insult to be answered with a slap or a fist in the face.

This account is taken from the diary of a Loyalist, just so you know where he's coming from before even starting.

Friday, March 2, 1770

I arrived in Boston this afternoon. Upon entering the Royal Exchange, there was a great meeting in progress. Apparently a soldier had gone to the ropewalks owned by one John Gray and asked for some labor during his off-duty time. The master ropemaker, being the ass that he is, said that the only work for him would be cleaning out the privy. After much shouting and shoving, both acquired companions and a riot of about 70 people wielding clubs and sticks did occur in the ropeyard.

One of those speaking at the meeting was Jonathon Taylor, a hot head that sprayed his spittle on those close to him as he spoke. Another speaker was a business associate by the name of Samuel Adams, a publick orator who took every opportunity to inflame the passions of the local citizens against the soldiers. It has been whispered that he is one of a secret group of rebel-rousers doing and saying whatever could be done and said to drive the Regulars out of Boston. This secret group has even organised the farmers to come to town with their muskets if a tar barrel is set afire upon Beacon Hill.

Saturday, March 3

This night, one Crispus Atucks, a darkie sailor from the Bahamas supped at the Royal Exchange. Afterwards he drank with the rebels and bragged about his sugar and rum running. Listening to his ramblings led me to comprehend what an angry darkie he was. What I did for profit, Atucks did out of spite and malice. He enjoyed thumbing his nose at the king's rule while cruising about the Caribbean (and punishing the rum for free, no doubt). Atucks said with a sneer that he would soon strike a blow for freedom.

It is just past midnight and I have been awakened by Theodore Seawell. I did arise to listen to his information and to record it now, lest I would forget the details. Theodore described to me a meeting that he had overheard regarding actions that will occur this next Monday. The intent of the actions is to incite the soldiers to physically attack or even fire upon citizens and thereby create a legal issue for their immediate removal. The meeting was among Samuel Adams, Samuel Maverick, Edwark Garrick, Crispus Atucks, and Sam Gray. On Monday evening Adams, Maverick and Atucks would agitate meetings in various parts of the city and converge on the Commons House at 9 a'clock. Edward Garrick and Sam Gray would stay about the Commons House on King Street. They were all instructed to spread the word that a confrontation would occur Monday.

Sunday, March 4

A riot almost was incited on this day of rest. One sergeant of the Garrison had disappeared yesterday evening and the soldiers were certain that he had been murdered. Being out for a fight, the soldiers did forcible search several homes and establishments of instigators and several establishments that the sergeant was known to frequent. The sergeant was found att Barlington's House alive, but passed completely out due to excessive spirits, and in the company of a *****.

Monday, March 5

Sam Gray arrived at the Royal Exchange early in the evening, being in a mischievous and rowdy mood. It was obvious that something was afoot. Gray who usually was either broke or very tight with his money was buying pints of ale for anyone who would drink with him. I can guess where he obtained funding. Sam Adams no doubt, making sure that the citizens were sufficiently filled with liquid courage to carry out the plan of the evening past. As the evening wore on, Gray continued to pay for the flow of ale while inciting his drunken company against the posting of soldiers in the town.

About 9 a'clock, a church bell began ringing nearby and then another in the distance joined in its tolling. In response, Gray led his group of drunken companions outside. Several stumbled and fell over each other. I followed the mob out the door fearing that they would be of little use in putting out the fire and that fire would spread quickly. Leave it to Providence to create a fire in the midst of the instigators plans to start a riot. Once outside I looked around frantically, but did not see any flames or smell any smoke. Others had also turned out at the peal of the bells and the street was quickly filling with concerned citizens.

I saw Samuel Maverick and Atucks leading a large number of angry yelling men into the Commons area. At the same time, I saw a small squad of soldiers pushing through the crowd to join a sentry in front of the Commons House. Edward Garrick was shouting at the sentry and becoming the center of the crowd's attention.

The bells continued to toll. I crossed the street to address Garrick and tried to convince him to stop the rebel nonsense and help put out the fire. His reply was "This is the fire, you fool." That’s when I realized that there was no fire, but the signal was being used to turn out citizens to add to the drunken mob. As the mob taunted the soldiers several in the crowd yelled "fire!, fire!". My blood ran cold as I realised that citizens trying to get assistance to answer the tolling of the fire alarm might be misunderstood as attempting to inflame the soldiers to discharge their weapons. Damn clever those instigators. I turned from the soldiers and tried to push my way through the crowd, not wanting to be in the middle of the fight. But the drunken mob pressing forward yelling at the soldiers slowed my progress.

Then the worst happened. A sudden flash of powder and a rapport. The mob withdrew a few paces, as much in surprise as in fear while several turned and fled. I turned to see that all had moved back except Gray and Atucks who stood their ground. Atucks slumped his shoulders and dropped his club. Gray turned toward him and with an expression of shock across his face and yelled something I could not make out. I took the opportunity to turn and push my way farther through the crowd and away from the soldiers.

Then the mob roared in unison and surged toward the soldiers brandishing their clubs. Gray and Atucks were caught in the press and carried forward. The soldiers fended off the advancing mob with thrusts of their bayonets as they slowly gave away ground. Captain Preston attempted to step between the mob and soldiers, pushing the bayonet of the nearest soldier down and moving in front of him. He raised his hand and yelled, "In God’s name, please stop!". A club struck him on the arm and he fell.

In response, a soldier yelled "Damn you all to hell" and fired his weapon point blank into the crowd. Immediately the soldier to his right also fired. Gray and Atucks, trapped in the midst, both went down. Several other soldiers fired at will while those that had already discharged their weapons hurriedly reloaded. Others in the mob fell. Captain Preston jumped up yelling at the soldiers to be at ease and demanding to know why they had fired without his order. Again, the mob withdrew, leaving Gray and Atucks laying in the street. The snow around Gray’s head was red with blood. Half of his face had disappeared. Atucks lay unmoving next to him.

Slowly, a few from the mob came forward with mouths agape. Instead of assaulting the soldiers again, they quietly stood and knelt around the fallen bodies.

I was told that Gray's body was taken to the home of Dr. Loring, but since he did not answer the knock, the brave and loyal patriots left his body laying in the street gutter. As for Atucks, his body lays stiff in my cold storage room. Shot dead while leading a drunken mob in a riot. It is probably a good thing the damn fool didn't understand that when the white masters talked about "freedom for all", that the "all" did not include the darkies, otherwise he might have been a loyalist. Martyrdom suits some rebel-rousers better than others in that it keeps them quiet when all the shooting is over.

Tomorrow, I journey to Philadelphia.

Tuesday, April 17

Received today from Andrew Caples along with his monthly report, an engraving of "The Bloody Massacre perpetrated in King Street" by Paul Revere. As a final insult to the dead and buried Atucks, that scoundrel Revere depicted him as a white man. But according to Caples, that was not actually the fault of Revere. Henry Pelham showed Atucks in his drawing of the shooting as a white man. All Revere did was steal the drawing, produce copies and sell it before Pelham could get off the privy and do likewise. Not only was Revere’s engraving the first to be sold, he had it coloured and charged an outrageous amount for it. By word of Caples, Revere made a small fortune. Sharp business man , that Revere. He might make a good business partner if it was not for his endless and boring talk of teeth. One thing that caught my eye is the person in the foreground of the mob facing away from the soldiers. It is me, trying to get away from the confrontation.
(See Revere's print here: http://ns.netmcr.com/~ambro/massacre.htm )

Friday, April 20

Dined with my close friend, Thomas Gage this evening, who was visiting Philadelphia. When the conversation turned to the recent confrontation in Boston, I told him of what I saw along with the free ale and bell ringing. I also allowed him to read my diary about the overheard meeting and showed him the engraving by Revere. He flew into a rage, exclaiming that he had suspected that the trouble arose not from the citizens, but from a handful of elite ringleaders in Boston that were provoking mobs to unruly behavior. Now he was certain of it. But, he told me in confidence that he had a spy among the rebels. And for now on, he would be one step ahead of them.

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by Electrophil

No, we are worse off. Al Queda is alive and well, and according to our CIA, it has become more successful in it's recruiting efforts. Hatred for our country is at it's highest level...ever. Our country has also went from a huge surplus in it's budget to a doubling of it's National Debt over the last 5 years.

This is what i was trying to say Phil, now America's ennemies are the Muslims, not only those in the middle east, but also in the entire World!! Even Malaysia's...

[Phast SVX]

Originally Posted by Electrophil

No, we are worse off. Al Queda is alive and well, and according to our CIA, it has become more successful in it's recruiting efforts. Hatred for our country is at it's highest level...ever. Our country has also went from a huge surplus in it's budget to a doubling of it's National Debt over the last 5 years.

That huge surplus, what would you have thought Clinton to do with it? Rational answer=pay off the debt, actual outcome=GAVE IT BACK TO PUBLIC. You also fail to realize the amount of growth which took place during the 90's as compared to the cyclical bear market we are running in trying to recover from the market adjustment that occored in the last few years.

When congress proposes new programs to feed the hungr and send people to college, they are 4x more likely to pass then if it were the same but says how it generates new income to pay for it. Also, who wants to be the one to raise taxes? surely thats not a good way to be reelected. So you a have a morality issue as well.

A little fyi that your teacher most definetly left out. our Debt to GDP(debt/gross domestic product) in the united states is many times smaller then most 1st world countries, but our GDP is larger then the next 5 countries combined.

debt to GDP
Japan 154.6% Italy 106.4% France 68.8% Germany 64.2% US 62.4% UK 51%

Perspective is the key, and numbers can lie. If you want to truely learn something then you need to step outside your own boundries and challenge your own thoughts, then you can be confident in your thoughts being yours.

[Electrophil]

You know what's ticking me off the most?

Everytime I type up some rational long winded reply... This time to Phast, the site freezes up, and I have to reboot!

How the heck am I suppose to get my opinion.....which is much better than any of yours.... across.... If the dog-gone thing keeps freezing??

[Electrophil]

That was such a great.... well thought out reply to Doug. It was poetry...it was perfection....it was literature. Concise and pure... all gone.

Originally Posted by Phast SVX

I was not aiming my post towards you bipa. I think you would see a much better audiance(and i would respect you) if you werent so condescending and justified in your words.
there is NO right answer to this, aversion is by far the weakest form of risk management IMO and that is what many people, governments, and our media is suggesting we do. I also would'nt mind seeing a system with mandatory government service. But you could never get that to fly here, too many people are to far removed from reality of life.

phil


On viewing your original post, at the top was initially quoted Landshark's tongue-in-cheek admonishment to me. Your own first words were "my same thoughts" which can only mean that you agree with Landshark's words which you quoted.

The last phrase "i dont think you have any room to talk sir." is usually interpreted to mean opposition, or disagreement. This clear signal of disapproval was immediately preceded by your statement about losing a grandfather to Germans...

I'm confused. If your comment was not directed towards me, and you were in agreement with Landshark, then with whom were you disagreeing?


Regarding respect... it is either freely given, or not. I don't demand it.

Hmm.....condescending and justified, am I? Well, first off, thanks for agreeing that I am justified in my opinions. As for condescending, I don't see how I have "descended to the level of one considered inferior, lowered myself, or dealt with people in a patronizingly superior manner". I simply recounted a bit of my family history so that people could see where I was coming from, and how much room I had to talk. It was bit more of an emotional post than people usually expect from me, but it was forthright and honest like the rest of my posts without resorting to any crass name-calling.

The reason this sort of topic is interesting to discuss is precisely because there is no single right answer, but many wrong ones. What works in one specific instance might be completely unacceptable in another. As people differ in their observations and analysis of the problem, these differences result in contrary solutions being proposed. Aversion, however, has never been raised in this thread until now, and I have never seriously seen it discussed as a viable option. Everyone agrees that simply trying to avoid the threat and ignoring it won't make it go away. Everyone agrees that something should be done. The controversy is over the "what shall we do" question, and not the "shall we do something" question.

I agree with you that US citizens would not easily accept the concept of mandatory military or civil service. It would require a completely different mind-set in both the general populace and government.

"Reality of Life" is a whole other thread. One man's reality is another's dreamworld...and a third's nightmare.

[mohrds]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

This is what i was trying to say Phil, now America's ennemies are the Muslims, not only those in the middle east, but also in the entire World!! Even Malaysia's...

If the small percentage of Muslims that have taken sides with the terrorists want to blame the US for their problems, I can't help that. Throughout history, groups are lumped into convenient categories to blame and hate. Jews, Christians, Arabs, Indians (American), Blacks, Whites, Witches, Blondes, Redheads, etc.

Racism and its ignorance will always keep people from getting along. Most of the time it is based on religion. Some day history will look down at the Muslim crusades against the US the same way history looks down at the Christian crusades.

Doug

[Electrophil]

Have to keep it short so it doesn't freeze up.

That surplus was 10 years in the making. It started with Bush Sr. and cost him re-election due to the initial hurt it put on our economy.

3 years straight this country missed its budget deadline and deadlocked the pay and benefits to government/military until they could decide how to move forward with deficit reduction. New laws were put into effect that would cap our deficit. Bush has over-ridden those laws 3 years of his 5 in office.

Just on the military: Forces were slimlined, bases were closed, military advancements checkmated, raises tied to the exact inflation amounts, forced retirements enacted. I was in the military during those years. We were watching pennies to stretch our ship's budget. The supply dept. would buy eggs from vendors using weaved baskets overseas cause the cartoned eggs here were more expensive. we would idle our power plants at sea for days to stretch our fuel.

There's a thousand other examples, but you were there... you know. The bottom idea Bush Sr and his gang envisioned was this: Reduce the National budget and debt, this will free up money for the private sector, making money cheaper to obtain, who will invest it, which will increase tax flow, which will reduce the national budget and debt, which wil free up money.... etc. And it was working!! We were lucky Clinton stayed on the idea and expanded it. Yes, there was a technology landfall involved, but that didn't account for how far we succeeded. We did it as a nation!!

But here comes Bush with his "give it back". I, as a responsible American, didn't want $600 a year. I will buy my own set of tires. I wanted a balanced budget so the nation would thrive, which in turn would enrich me more monetarily than a set of tires. But... most of the "give it back" didn't go to the people who gave it, did it?

Grab a calculator, jump on OMB's site, and figure the amount that went to people making average wages. A family making 60k a year got $600. A family making 60k a year will "spend" that $600, for they only have a few thousand in the bank... if that. So that helps, and the premise of this idea was sound, even though it defeated the original idea.

But once you go through the calculations, you see that 54% of the tax break went to the Bill Gates's and the Walton style families. They have millions in assets if not billions... especially Gates and the 6 Waltons. If you give them an extra million or 10, it won't get spent. The top wealth in this country hoards... they don't spend.

The original idea from Bush Sr. was sound, and it was working. Bush Jr. hasn't been sober long enough in his life to see the effort on how we got there. And he screwed it up as we yelled for him to stop. And the answer to the ones of us who actually "suffered" during that decade of discipline was. "Hey! it's our money!"

No.......it wasn't our money yet... It was going to grow into more money for us.

That's allllllll gone now, isn't it? To the tune of Twice the debt we were in just 5 years ago.

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by mohrds

Racism and its ignorance will always keep people from getting along. Most of the time it is based on religion. Some day history will look down at the Muslim crusades against the US the same way history looks down at the Christian crusades.

Doug

This is an outstanding point that deserves to be repeated.

[Electrophil]

Incidentally... Phil:

I did challenge my thoughts, that is why... after the incredible squandering of our assets and military, I switched from being a lifelong Republican for the first 40 years of my life, and registered as a Democrat just before the last national election.

My whole family is closed minded, republican, and won't wake up to see what has happened over the last 5 years. They pull the "Oh that's just un-american!" routine on me even though I am the only one to have served in the military for 20 years among them.... I'm the only one to have joined! But then.... That's the Bush crowd. Extremely blind to actual things happening around them.

Luckily, our country is waking back up, and seeing Bush as they saw him prior to 9/11. He's down to 37% approval this month. Just 2 points below where he was right before 9/11.

Originally Posted by Electrophil

Luckily, our country is waking back up, and seeing Bush as they saw him prior to 9/11. He's down to 37% approval this month. Just 2 points below where he was right before 9/11.

Shhhhhhh!!!! Did you have to say that so loud?! Now "something" is bound to happen to bring his ratings back up!

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by mohrds

If the small percentage of Muslims that have taken sides with the terrorists want to blame the US for their problems, I can't help that. Throughout history, groups are lumped into convenient categories to blame and hate. Jews, Christians, Arabs, Indians (American), Blacks, Whites, Witches, Blondes, Redheads, etc.

Small %age? Who told you so? They are all against USA and Israel, the only difference is the difference of commitment. By commitment i mean people ranging from hating you till organizing attacks against you.

Originally Posted by mohrds

Racism and its ignorance will always keep people from getting along. Most of the time it is based on religion. Some day history will look down at the Muslim crusades against the US the same way history looks down at the Christian crusades.

Try to convince THEM in what you are saying. They are highly racist and they think GOD gave them his blessing to carry what they are doing.
The Muslims believe that the afterlife will be heaven in all its glory in case they carry out the Jihad (duty to defend his community by Kamikazing the enemy)...

They will never see that as a "mistake" but rather as an act of courage and belief in their religion...

[mohrds]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

Small %age? Who told you so? They are all against USA and Israel, the only difference is the difference of commitment. By commitment i mean people ranging from hating you till organizing attacks against you.

Try to convince THEM in what you are saying. They are highly racist and they think GOD gave them his blessing to carry what they are doing.
The Muslims believe that the afterlife will be heaven in all its glory in case they carry out the Jihad (duty to defend his community by Kamikazing the enemy)...

They will never see that as a "mistake" but rather as an act of courage and belief in their religion...

I'm not saying the current people will see it as a mistake, but future generations will. The Christians had the same philosophy during the crusades.

Its pretty scary how any religon that is supposed to improve your life and give you a purpose can be twisted into making you kill yourself and others.

Doug

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by mohrds

Its pretty scary how any religon that is supposed to improve your life and give you a purpose can be twisted into making you kill yourself and others.
Doug

The scary thing is rather the religion that will never evolve even for a million years. Try to speak to a Muslim while he is praying... he will ignore you and continue praying. I really envy the way they are committed to their religion Doug, unlike us Christians... and believe me, most of my friends here are muslims, and most of them have been living the way their ancestors lived... they do not accept to revolutionise their way of life. Only the basics (car, phone..)

Do you know that depositing money at the bank and earning interest on it ( interest earning accounts) is a great SIN in their religious vocabulary?

Muslims have millions of dollars deposited in banks on which they can earn substantial amount of interest sufficient to cover their monthly expenses, but they never do that!! (because they are only entitled to deposit them in non interest earning accounts)

They will continue in that trend for a million years to come!!!