What is worse? Why?

[iizbeastie]

Ok. This one has been building on me for a while and I need to figure it out. One poster may recognize this reaction.....

What is so horrible about an 18 year old having a child? I've know several 17-23 year olds who have gotten pregnant and I have to say that the worst thing they go through that I've seen is the people making it out to be such a "bad situation". Is it not better than drugged? Imprisoned? Killed? Or many other bad situations? Of all the parents Ive known not one, including those who were in their teens, would regret or trade their place in life. Perhaps anything under 17-18 is truly pushing boundaries but in general I don't get it.

I'm sure this will get me all kinds of people talking about financial stability and maturity, but think on it for a second. First, I've excluded the underage (under 17, almost 18). Secondly, especially for the parents, honestly ask yourself "if I waited until I was 'ready' would I have ever had children?"

Personally, when I was 11, I started thinking about when I would rather have children. I did because I knew a few other kids in school who had a dad, that when walking along side them or seeing them in the front yard would make you think "is that his dad or his grandpa". Better yet, you might think "oh his grandpa is visiting" and you would be WRONG!!! And I personally had a problem with becoming that guy. I decided I never wanted anyone to look at me and wonder if I was 'daddy' or 'poppa'. So, after concluding that I wanted at least 2-3 children, I knew I wanted to have my first by the time I was 22, and guess what, success.

[Manarius]

Seeing as I live in this age range (18-20ish) I think I can make an accurate position here. Most 18 year olds I know (and I don't live in poverty) can't make it on their own. They can't make enough money to support themselves, some sort of living arrangement, and a child. So, why is it bad that 18 year olds have kids? Well, when they can't support them, why should they bring them into the world?

[iizbeastie]

Originally Posted by Manarius

Seeing as I live in this age range (18-20ish) I think I can make an accurate position here. Most 18 year olds I know (and I don't live in poverty) can't make it on their own. They can't make enough money to support themselves, some sort of living arrangement, and a child. So, why is it bad that 18 year olds have kids? Well, when they can't support them, why should they bring them into the world?

Just as expected with financial stability. But, if you give a chance and assume that daddy isn't going to run away, anything is possible. As far as that is concerned most of those who cannot support themselves, are that way because they have little to no responsibility. I would have to say that in any stage in life, a child is one heck of a motivator to align ones priorities. To say they can't support them is looking at what they are doing prior to adding the responsibility. After having some added reason, I would like to think that "can't" is rarely the case and a word misused in place of "don't"

[odepaj]

My best friend had her son at 19.

She has no job and lives with her aunt. It's been really hard for her.

But the father joined the Army as soon as they found out she was pregnant.

"Finances" is not a good excuse........







Dustin

[SVXyGirl]

Finances are a huge issue with having children at any age....especially right now. If an 18 year old couple or single parent can afford a child good for them! But, in reality not all 18 year olds are as rich as Jaime Lynn Spears.

[odepaj]

Originally Posted by SVXyGirl

Finances are a huge issue with having children at any age....especially right now. If an 18 year old couple or single parent can afford a child good for them! But, in reality not all 18 year olds are as rich as Jaime Lynn Spears.

You don't need to be rich to be able to afford a child though.

And in any case, there are plenty of good paying jobs out there that are easy to get.

The Military just happens to be one of them.




Dustin

[iizbeastie]

Ok, but I've already mentioned that simply having a child is often a HUGE motivator to align priorities, get a good job (or just multiple jobs... whatever).

Thank you Odepaj for helping me out on this one.... are kids expensive, well yeah but if you cut out some of the useless stuff that people in this range buy then you wonder what they cannot afford. Most late teen, early 20's guys have a car or two, go through a stereo upgrade stage, many of them even spend insane amounts of money on huge/nice rims, and really what is with the 'new cell phone every 3 months' syndrome? These people do have money, they just spend it like idiots.... not bashing on anyone here for the rims or the low functional vehicles (lets face facts here, my SVX is NOT my family car and never could be!), I'm simply stating that your position in life dictates the fun spending you can have. I'm also not big on exploiting assistance programs, but there are some set up to help low income families get buy. You can get rental assistance, medical assistance, WIC (Women, Infants and Children), food stamps ect...

With that out of the way, can someone offer a reason, other than $$$$, that makes it so horrible to be a pregnant/expecting teen? Ok, it can make things hard. Seriously, when is life NOT hard? I know there are some that will agree that life isn't, but those would also be able to recognize that some have a better ability/aptitude than others for dealing with life challenges. I personally take pretty much everything in stride and am capable of dealing with just about everything that has been thrown at me, and I know, 'great for me, not everyone is like that'. But what I'm trying to establish is why everyone seems to feel the need to look at a teen as if there is some life threatening violation. Why is it necessary to make them feel like a piece of crap and say that it's a "mistake", a "problem", or a "bad situation"? Really, how is it possible that in only a couple of short years (from 17 to 19 or 19 to 21) this can go from a huge issue, to a blessing?

Then there are the really stupid questions like "what were you thinking?"..... Honestly, WTF do you think they were thinking? They were thinking "ooh this is fun, hey I like this.... ooh baby, ooh baby" Everyone over the age of 15, often younger especially for men, knows that teens are hornballs... many of them will get much worse in the years to come, but it's still a fact. We also know that many of them don't think about much. So is this just what we say because we don't know what else to ask? Is it really that simple?

In my opinion, there are just as many teens that are capable of having a child as there are people that should NEVER have children. There are people who make it far past teens and twenties and have a maturity level or motivational level that would never allow them to be a proper parent. I also honestly believe that if you are 40, and have not had a child, you shouldn't. Seriously, by the time they move out you would be 58+. If you have more than one you will be supporting them from retirement funds. Most importantly, by then you have lost your understanding of what young people are like, and your ability to keep up with them. 'Been there done that' is always valuable experience, but people are best at what they are doing, and if you haven't been a 'kid' for a couple of decades or longer, then it will more than jog your memory.

[NikFu S.]

I was born when my mom was 19.

She is a very ambitious, driven, loyal, hard-working person.

She just was not mentally ready to raise a child at that age, and neither was my 22 year old dad. They divorced after 2 years.
According to her, he didn't want much to do with me. Pretty typical Detroit dad, I guess.

According to me, as I can remember what my mom was like in her early 20s, she was a person without self-control. Every good quality she had was offset with a bad one, and as luck would have it being raised by this person I was gifted with similar attributes so I could talk about them at length.

People are biologically ready to reproduce at what most people consider a very early age. Why not, it is advantageous in a tribal society.
Here comes my point.

We obviously do not live in a tribal society. Today's world is complex enough nobody has quite enough time to properly mature into the type of person necessary to take account of all possible responsibilities before this desire to procreate emerges. What's worse, puberty seems to begin earlier today than 100 years ago.

18/19 year olds in general are not mentally mature. Very few people are at that age. By having a child at that age you are taking a huge risk, with the greater risk lying in the parents ability to raise the child, not just feed it and watch it grow for 18 years.

My sister is 18, and according to an email I received from my mom, pregnant.

She does not have a decent job, she lives with her boyfriend who is of shady quality, she is a freaking pothead, she's a slob, she is lazy because her dad spoils her, she has no ambition, dropped out of high school despite having a gift for math, and when I asked her if she was going to keep it or not, she said "I dunno". I thought "This person can not possibly be related to me." There is no way in hell this kid could turn out right without a massive family intervention.
On that note I will tell you about my Filipino friends whom I have known since high school. Their family structure uncannily resembles my own.
My friend's sister got pregnant and had a child at 18.
She too, was a high school drop out. Maybe she got her GED, I dunno, who cares. Anyway this girl's child is over a year old now and walking and quite adorable.
This girl has not yet the single party life go.
She frequently drops off her kid to her mom and brother, whom are essentially raising her. Dad is in the Philippines, but they are not separated or anything. The child's dad is kind of a bum. He too, is very young. Can't be more than 20 and is certainly not in any sort of child-rearing condition. He does not "raise" his child. His baby's mama's brother and mom and sometimes best friend on occasion when this kid gets brought over, which is frequently, raise this child. Lucky for her to have such a supportive family as her mom prances around the night life in the Yukon she was given last year.

Now to the exceptions, we have the two other fili brothers, and my two older brothers. 3 kids to each side. My brothers are not much older than me, and are raising great kids at a young age. Not 18/19 young, but to me mid-20s is pretty young, which is why I have not committed to such a thing yet. They are doing great despite not having much luck financially. Hard times down in south Florida right now. My friend's brothers are also raising children at a young age, early 20s, and doing quite well from what I can see. One of then entered a relationship with a girl who already had a child at 17. They lived with me for a while and there was a lot of drama. The kind that drives people crazy, but in this case they stayed together and had twins, and I think found the right formula, and will be great parents though dad should turn off the X360 every once in a while.

[SUBBYRU89]

I was 19 when I had my first child...
You are trying to exclude the monetary facter, but in all reality money is the big thing. Do you know what formula costs? If your child has health problems do you know what it cost to keep traveling them to the specialist? It takes roughly $2K within the few months just for onesies and diapers...not including the actual baby clothing. Sure there might be "teens" out there with parents who will take the child at any given time or pay for any necessary debt brought on by the new baby, but in reality most grandparents don't. The cost of baby items such as cribs, walkers, playpens, toys, bottles, etc..is a big chunk of change. Granted..you get stuff from the baby shower, but a child grows rapidly in the first year so out goes all the simple stuff that was given to you (because really, who can afford to take from their own families and give to the new one)

You say welfare & WIC. Do you know the guide lines for them? They are not the same as a few years ago. You have 5 yrs. in your life time to collect any cash benefits from welfare. Any other benefits are determined by you family size and income. You have to be at the super poverty level to receive any if little help from them (they are trying to get rid of it all together)

That's only scratching the surface with financial stuff.

Emotional...as you grow up you make plans for your future. How many people do you know actually factor in a child at the age of 18-20? Most are planning where they are going to go to college. Opps get knocked up..there goes all those plans out the window...now you have to deal with the emotional bearings of not just taking care of yourself but to care for the life of another...to put all your hopes and dreams on the back burner and give every part of your being to this life (all while not losing your sense of self). So instead of going off and getting that degree you so wanted you have to pick up a job so you can keep this child in a comfortable living atmosphere (and when I say comfortable I mean roof, heat, water, electricity, land line, etc..) All this and so much more takes a toll on you emotionally.

Another emotional burden is the 3-4am feedings, the constant diaper changings, when the teething happens it's non-stop crying and drooling fest. This does not just take a toll on the mother (who is still trying to recover from birthing) but a toll on the dad if he chose to stick around (which is a whole other ball of wax in itself)

This is just small fragments of why I believe "teens" shouldn't have children until they've finished their education, travel a little bit and then are physically, financially and emotionally ready to take on such a huge responsibility.

There is only 1 person I know who has it cushy and that is because her parents keep her living in their 1/2 million dollar home, pay for all the child's expenses, take care of her needs, fly her to Hawaii whenever the urge hits her, and on top of it and she can come and go as she pleases doing whatever she wants. To me she is not a parent, her son is being raised by his grandparents.

I love my children with every ounce of my being, but I did not plan them and it has been one hell of a rocky road.

[odepaj]

Originally Posted by SUBBYRU89

I was 19 when I had my first child...
You are trying to exclude the monetary facter, but in all reality money is the big thing. Do you know what formula costs? If your child has health problems do you know what it cost to keep traveling them to the specialist? It takes roughly $2K within the few months just for onesies and diapers...not including the actual baby clothing. Sure there might be "teens" out there with parents who will take the child at any given time or pay for any necessary debt brought on by the new baby, but in reality most grandparents don't. The cost of baby items such as cribs, walkers, playpens, toys, bottles, etc..is a big chunk of change. Granted..you get stuff from the baby shower, but a child grows rapidly in the first year so out goes all the simple stuff that was given to you (because really, who can afford to take from their own families and give to the new one)

You say welfare & WIC. Do you know the guide lines for them? They are not the same as a few years ago. You have 5 yrs. in your life time to collect any cash benefits from welfare. Any other benefits are determined by you family size and income. You have to be at the super poverty level to receive any if little help from them (they are trying to get rid of it all together)

That's only scratching the surface with financial stuff.

Emotional...as you grow up you make plans for your future. How many people do you know actually factor in a child at the age of 18-20? Most are planning where they are going to go to college. Opps get knocked up..there goes all those plans out the window...now you have to deal with the emotional bearings of not just taking care of yourself but to care for the life of another...to put all your hopes and dreams on the back burner and give every part of your being to this life (all while not losing your sense of self). So instead of going off and getting that degree you so wanted you have to pick up a job so you can keep this child in a comfortable living atmosphere (and when I say comfortable I mean roof, heat, water, electricity, land line, etc..) All this and so much more takes a toll on you emotionally.

Another emotional burden is the 3-4am feedings, the constant diaper changings, when the teething happens it's non-stop crying and drooling fest. This does not just take a toll on the mother (who is still trying to recover from birthing) but a toll on the dad if he chose to stick around (which is a whole other ball of wax in itself)

This is just small fragments of why I believe "teens" shouldn't have children until they've finished their education, travel a little bit and then are physically, financially and emotionally ready to take on such a huge responsibility.

There is only 1 person I know who has it cushy and that is because her parents keep her living in their 1/2 million dollar home, pay for all the child's expenses, take care of her needs, fly her to Hawaii whenever the urge hits her, and on top of it and she can come and go as she pleases doing whatever she wants. To me she is not a parent, her son is being raised by his grandparents.

I love my children with every ounce of my being, but I did not plan them and it has been one hell of a rocky road.

A planned child is completely different from an un-planned child.

Yes I agree, it is stupid for someone to plan to have a child at 17-20 (personally I don't want kids until 25).

But s**t happens and sometimes one comes along that wasn't planned. Thats more the debate here.

Finances are a big thing yes, but there are plenty of ways to counter that.

Emotional maturity I think is the major factor here. When you face the facts, there are plenty of stupid/idiotic people that shouldn't reproduce....

But that stupidity is usually what allows them to reproduce.

But you can't just say "oh, that person is only 17, their kid is gonna be messed up"

My ex is 23 (almost 24) and she is a worse parent than my 20 year old friend.

To much stuff to add to the equation to say that there is for sure an age where people are ready to have children.





Dustin

[iizbeastie]

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

I was born when my mom was 19.

She is a very ambitious, driven, loyal, hard-working person.

Another commonality...... same as mine.

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

She just was not mentally ready to raise a child at that age, and neither was my 22 year old dad. They divorced after 2 years.
According to her, he didn't want much to do with me. Pretty typical Detroit dad, I guess.

Well, I won't go into her mental state considering I still think she's a nutcase. As far as dad was concerned, like all of his brothers he went OTR. Between dump trucks, school busses and semi's, he didn't want much to do with much... oh well life moves on.

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

My sister is 18, and according to an email I received from my mom, pregnant.

She does not have a decent job, she lives with her boyfriend who is of shady quality, she is a freaking pothead, she's a slob, she is lazy because her dad spoils her, she has no ambition, dropped out of high school despite having a gift for math, and when I asked her if she was going to keep it or not, she said "I dunno". I thought "This person can not possibly be related to me." There is no way in hell this kid could turn out right without a massive family intervention.

I really don't understand why it's always 'intervention'. Why can't it simply be help out? Not necessarily financially or babysitting, but simple emotional support? Isn't that what your family is supposed to be for? Just being there?

This is going into why individuals shouldn't have kids. Not teens, individuals. You mark many traits of people who are not destined to be good parents, they can be found in any age range... look at Willie Nelson....

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

On that note I will tell you about my Filipino friends whom I have known since high school. Their family structure uncannily resembles my own.
My friend's sister got pregnant and had a child at 18.
She too, was a high school drop out. Maybe she got her GED, I dunno, who cares. Anyway this girl's child is over a year old now and walking and quite adorable.
This girl has not yet the single party life go.
She frequently drops off her kid to her mom and brother, whom are essentially raising her.

That may be an opinion but "mom" will always have an influence on you. Like it or not, if you know who she is, she is part of your life.

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

Dad is in the Philippines, but they are not separated or anything. The child's dad is kind of a bum. He too, is very young. Can't be more than 20 and is certainly not in any sort of child-rearing condition. He does not "raise" his child. His baby's mama's brother and mom and sometimes best friend on occasion when this kid gets brought over, which is frequently, raise this child. Lucky for her to have such a supportive family as her mom prances around the night life in the Yukon she was given last year.

So giving her a Youkon is ok but that isn't helping out? That's all they can do? What is wrong with getting help where or if you can? I'd say it's merely being resourceful.

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

Now to the exceptions, we have the two other fili brothers, and my two older brothers. 3 kids to each side. My brothers are not much older than me, and are raising great kids at a young age. Not 18/19 young, but to me mid-20s is pretty young, which is why I have not committed to such a thing yet. They are doing great despite not having much luck financially. Hard times down in south Florida right now. My friend's brothers are also raising children at a young age, early 20s, and doing quite well from what I can see. One of then entered a relationship with a girl who already had a child at 17. They lived with me for a while and there was a lot of drama. The kind that drives people crazy, but in this case they stayed together and had twins, and I think found the right formula, and will be great parents though dad should turn off the X360 every once in a while.

And why is it we all assume the worst? Between the noted and the exceptions, no one knows which you will be prior to pregnancy so why do we assume, by the time the pregnancy test shows positive, that the fecal matter has collided with the rotary air displacement device?

Originally Posted by SUBBYRU89

I was 19 when I had my first child...
You are trying to exclude the monetary facter, but in all reality money is the big thing.

I'm merely trying to exclude it because like everything else, it is dependent on the input provided. "you can make it if you try" .... we tell these people their doomed before they have been given a fighting chance

Originally Posted by SUBBYRU89

Do you know what formula costs? If your child has health problems do you know what it cost to keep traveling them to the specialist? It takes roughly $2K within the few months just for onesies and diapers...not including the actual baby clothing. Sure there might be "teens" out there with parents who will take the child at any given time or pay for any necessary debt brought on by the new baby, but in reality most grandparents don't. The cost of baby items such as cribs, walkers, playpens, toys, bottles, etc..is a big chunk of change. Granted..you get stuff from the baby shower, but a child grows rapidly in the first year so out goes all the simple stuff that was given to you (because really, who can afford to take from their own families and give to the new one)

My daughter just turned 9 months and my son will be 5 in January. So as far as expenses, yes I'm quite aware. On the note of health problems, my son underwent surgery at 3 1/2 weeks old for pyloric stenosis, and we're quite lucky we had the nurse we did at the children's hospital. Her years of experience noted a condition, mixed with RSV, that is almost never found in a child under 6-9 months. As far as baby clothing and toys... do you need some? I have a mountain to get rid of!!! Including the crib, walker, high chair, play pen and baby gate. None of these came from a baby shower as my wife didn't have one and honestly I'm rather tired of my wife's parents loaning money from me.....

Originally Posted by SUBBYRU89

You say welfare & WIC. Do you know the guide lines for them? They are not the same as a few years ago. You have 5 yrs. in your life time to collect any cash benefits from welfare. Any other benefits are determined by you family size and income. You have to be at the super poverty level to receive any if little help from them (they are trying to get rid of it all together)

And rightfully so. It shouldn't take any longer than that. I mentioned I'm not big on them, but if you need it you need it. Through the taxes you will pay in through your life you will more than return the money you needed during a hard time. There are far too many people who exploit these programs, but there are also several who are either too proud or don't know they exist and really deserve to take part. I for one, got jacked on the whole financial stimulus check and it's rather irritating. I make almost exactly the same salary as my neighbor who received a full refund with his housewife and one child, and I was cut down though I have 2 children.... friggin IRS.....

Originally Posted by SUBBYRU89

Emotional...as you grow up you make plans for your future. How many people do you know actually factor in a child at the age of 18-20? Most are planning where they are going to go to college. Opps get knocked up..there goes all those plans out the window...

Why? Is it not possible? I had a child before I started college, yes it was hard but it's not impossible and you don't have to 'give up' anything. The whole notion that you are 'throwing your life out the window' is utter BS.

Originally Posted by SUBBYRU89

now you have to deal with the emotional bearings of not just taking care of yourself but to care for the life of another...to put all your hopes and dreams on the back burner and give every part of your being to this life (all while not losing your sense of self). So instead of going off and getting that degree you so wanted you have to pick up a job so you can keep this child in a comfortable living atmosphere (and when I say comfortable I mean roof, heat, water, electricity, land line, etc..) All this and so much more takes a toll on you emotionally.

see above..... instead of telling them how horribly difficult it's going to be, why don't we try to give them some direction and determination?

Originally Posted by SUBBYRU89

Another emotional burden is the 3-4am feedings, the constant diaper changings, when the teething happens it's non-stop crying and drooling fest. This does not just take a toll on the mother (who is still trying to recover from birthing) but a toll on the dad if he chose to stick around (which is a whole other ball of wax in itself)

I will admit that we were lucky with my son, after a week of this he was sleeping through the night and does to this day....
EDIT- My daughter on the other hand still seems to think there is no difference between falling asleep and dying, and clings to conciosness tighter than a weld seam
Teething, yeah that is fun idn't it!
Dad sticking around (which is only the start of earning the name 'Dad') has alot to do with our badgering them. By nature we avoid confrontation and hard times, and we tell them that it's going to be the hardest time they've ever known and yet we wonder why they run scared.... that is half the point, can we not use fear?

Originally Posted by SUBBYRU89

This is just small fragments of why I believe "teens" shouldn't have children until they've finished their education, travel a little bit and then are physically, financially and emotionally ready to take on such a huge responsibility.

Define "ready"? As in my earlier post, can you honestly say that if you waited until you knew you were 'ready', would you have done it yet? Life will always give you another thing to strive for, another reason to put off a family, and another situation that makes you wonder how ready you are. Any parent who did think they were ready will still be blown away in the first week, if not the first time they see a new baby. Seeing a baby and seeing your new baby are two entirely different worlds.

Originally Posted by SUBBYRU89

I love my children with every ounce of my being, but I did not plan them and it has been one hell of a rocky road.

I for one refuse to believe life isn't a rocky road without them. I have every respect for this statement and I commend your efforts and feelings. I'm not saying my life has been smoothed over the the last 3-6 years.
This whole situation reminds me of the stream in 'Robin Hood, Men in Tights' They're acting like the bridge is completely necessary and you'll drown without it, when from at least one perspective the 'river' is a whole 18 inches wide and the stride of your step will get you over it.

[iizbeastie]

Originally Posted by odepaj

Emotional maturity I think is the major factor here. When you face the facts, there are plenty of stupid/idiotic people that shouldn't reproduce....

But that stupidity is usually what allows them to reproduce.

Ever seen 'Idiocracy'? It's a pretty lame movie in my opinion but it enforces this point quite well.

Originally Posted by odepaj

But you can't just say "oh, that person is only 17, their kid is gonna be messed up"

My ex is 23 (almost 24) and she is a worse parent than my 20 year old friend.

To much stuff to add to the equation to say that there is for sure an age where people are ready to have children.

Exaaaaaactly, Thank you for this as it the entire reason for my position on this.

[NikFu S.]

Originally Posted by iizbeastie

Another commonality...... same as mine.

I also use words like "commonality". Uncanny.

I really don't understand why it's always 'intervention'. Why can't it simply be help out? Not necessarily financially or babysitting, but simple emotional support? Isn't that what your family is supposed to be for? Just being there?

I advised my mom to not "just be there". If you knew this girl you would know that it will merely enable her to think she is doing nothing wrong. We have been "being there" her entire life, spoiling her rotten. Her dad gave her a truck he said he would give her upon completion of high school. He is employing her. He's spent a great deal of money on secondary education that she practically ignored. The girl needs to learn what it's like to be in trouble, otherwise she will never be able to anticipate it.
I have tried to help her, honestly I have. She is just resistant. I gave up.
She has no idea how to raise a child and she is not willing to learn in the interim.
I was her favorite person at one point, (back when I was an angry wannabe UFC fighter actually), now it seems she doesn't care about what any of us has to say.
I'm hedging my bets on the slim chance that if she is anything like us, she will come around on her own given time to figure things out. It took me until I was 22. If she doesn't get it in a few years she never will.

In case my point isn't clear which is likely due to my rambling, to summarize, we can't help because she doesn't want help and is in her own words, stupid.

This is going into why individuals shouldn't have kids. Not teens, individuals. You mark many traits of people who are not destined to be good parents, they can be found in any age range... look at Willie Nelson....

My point was directly aimed at the lack of emotional growth teenagers have compared to people 10 years older or more. That is the source of increased risk from which complications can arise.
My opinions on the topic are nothing more than a risk assessment based on personal experience. Lower age, higher risk, until you hit the point where senility becomes an issue..

That may be an opinion but "mom" will always have an influence on you. Like it or not, if you know who she is, she is part of your life.

I don't recall stating the contrary.

So giving her a Yukon is ok but that isn't helping out? That's all they can do? What is wrong with getting help where or if you can? I'd say it's merely being resourceful.

The Yukon is a very luxurious vehicle for a teenager who was recently in trouble, "moved out" at 17, had a child out of wedlock in a strongly Catholic household, and hasn't even graduated high school. She was rewarded for being rebellious.
She isn't just "getting help where she can". She is being lazy and shirking responsibilities onto others, and her family is enabling her. You should hear them complain about it and say the things I am saying (often in a language I can't comprehend and at a high decibel level) while doing the opposite of what they believe.
Let me also fill you in that she had the option of staying at her parents house and be spoiled there for free, if she wanted to. She chose to go "live on her own", just like my sister.

And why is it we all assume the worst? Between the noted and the exceptions, no one knows which you will be prior to pregnancy so why do we assume, by the time the pregnancy test shows positive, that the fecal matter has collided with the rotary air displacement device?

Doesn't the saying go, "assume the worst and hope for the best" (or something)? That's a safe mantra to live by.

[iizbeastie]

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

I advised my mom to not "just be there". If you knew this girl you would know that it will merely enable her to think she is doing nothing wrong. We have been "being there" her entire life, spoiling her rotten. Her dad gave her a truck he said he would give her upon completion of high school. He is employing her. He's spent a great deal of money on secondary education that she practically ignored. The girl needs to learn what it's like to be in trouble, otherwise she will never be able to anticipate it.

To clarify, "just being there" was meant for a scenario where that is all they have the means for. There are plenty of new grandparents that are lucky to have made it through a months rent, at which point "just being there" is at least a minimal requirement.
Spoiling children is a whole new issue. Many parents cause harm with this behavior and it's not only annoying in this respect but it will cause frustrations later in life as well.... that includes those that don't have children. This sounds more like a case where her parents messed up and didn't prepare her for life. Just like the secondary education. From what I saw in college (over priced rich kid college that I couldn't afford), those who have tuition paid by the parents don't usually pay attention and waste the money that has been thrown at them since birth. Is it their fault, sure to a point, but parents need to realize that this is not only unnecessary, but will be taken for granted. And yes, you have to learn to deal with all of lifes troubles, period.

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

I have tried to help her, honestly I have. She is just resistant. I gave up.
She has no idea how to raise a child and she is not willing to learn in the interim.

But did you, unlike anyone else, do this without looking down on the "situation". Honest question, I'm not saying you didn't. Willingness to learn is often misunderstood. As an x-teacher I can tell you that teaching style is not nearly as critical as knowing your students learning style. Girls especially are far more prone to whining and ignoring a problem if they don't feel they will accomplish the goal. "Getting through to them" isn't figuring out how to pound it into their heads, it's figuring out what bait they will bite on. As a parent, I can tell you that 'I gave up' is simply not an option. In parenting, there are no breaks, there is no giving up, there is no changing your mind and there are no sick days. As impossible as it may seem, I don't mean that in a drill sargeant "you can not fail" sort of way. Mistakes are completely acceptable as they are the only true source of learning, but "I suck, I'm not going to do this anymore" is out of the question.

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

My point was directly aimed at the lack of emotional growth teenagers have compared to people 10 years older or more. That is the source of increased risk from which complications can arise.
My opinions on the topic are nothing more than a risk assessment based on personal experience. Lower age, higher risk, until you hit the point where senility becomes an issue..

So, a 30 year old is lower risk than a 40 year old? 35 is better than 45? Where do you draw the line, why and how?
I will honestly admit that I cannot remember the last year that I didn't look at myself and realize how dumb I was a year or more younger. I still do, perhaps this has something to do with the fact that like you, I study everything and have an insatiable need to know something about everything. If it functions I like knowing how, if it's confusing I figure it out, and if it doesn't make any sense I will muddle over it for days until it does.
BUT, I consider that you have a parental age as well as an actual age. No matter how more mature or developed you are, when it comes to raising your own children you are stupid until you're doing it. My parental age is 4, almost 5. Because that is how old my son is. This did not change when I read books on parenting or when I listened to parents in person or on TV. These viewpoints and books will only help you in the slightest degree because they are based on the experience of the writers with the children they have encountered..... Why is it not directly related? Because they have never met your child, and your child is and always will be unique just like we are. I practically raised my nephew (cousins son, but that is what I call him), and it only helped me slightly...... because one, it still wasn't my child, so it still didn't feel the same. I thought it did, but then I had my own. And he and my son have virtually nothing in common personality or behavior wise.

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

The Yukon is a very luxurious vehicle for a teenager who was recently in trouble, "moved out" at 17, had a child out of wedlock in a strongly Catholic household, and hasn't even graduated high school. She was rewarded for being rebellious.

Yes, it is. And it isn't fair either, what in life is? When I was growing up, my father told us(me and my older sister), when we graduate high school he will take us to Disney World, and when we graduate college he would buy us a car of choice. My sister cheated her way through high school, lied about her intentions of going to tech school and drove home from Disney World in a one year old Honda Civic. The very same car I was supposed to be driving to football practice, leaving me to the bus. (generally, my father couldn't afford a car over 2G's, this was from an insurance settlement).... Now, my sister is working a cash booth at a casino while I have two children, a 4 year degree, make as much as the two of them combined and still haven't been to Disney World. Am I whining about it? No, just stating the fact that I too have dealt with a spoiled moron sister. Personally, I would have sold the Youkon, bought a cheap car or minivan, and had some spending money for things I need.

But this only proves why she shouldn't have children. Not why no teenager can.

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

She isn't just "getting help where she can". She is being lazy and shirking responsibilities onto others, and her family is enabling her. You should hear them complain about it and say the things I am saying (often in a language I can't comprehend and at a high decibel level) while doing the opposite of what they believe.
Let me also fill you in that she had the option of staying at her parents house and be spoiled there for free, if she wanted to. She chose to go "live on her own", just like my sister.

This doesn't surprise me, it happens often. Its also no surprise coming from a Catholic home (I despise organized religion and this is part of the reason why) and BTW my mother is bullheaded Catholic. This is a family structure and upbringing to blame, not her. Sadly, this is also commonly found in the holy $h!t phase that directly follows "you're pregnant" at any age.

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

Doesn't the saying go, "assume the worst and hope for the best" (or something)? That's a safe mantra to live by.

"You have to shoot for the stars to land on the moon"

I agree with both.

[NikFu S.]

Originally Posted by iizbeastie

But did you, unlike anyone else, do this without looking down on the "situation". Honest question, I'm not saying you didn't. Willingness to learn is often misunderstood. As an x-teacher I can tell you that teaching style is not nearly as critical as knowing your students learning style. Girls especially are far more prone to whining and ignoring a problem if they don't feel they will accomplish the goal. "Getting through to them" isn't figuring out how to pound it into their heads, it's figuring out what bait they will bite on. As a parent, I can tell you that 'I gave up' is simply not an option. In parenting, there are no breaks, there is no giving up, there is no changing your mind and there are no sick days. As impossible as it may seem, I don't mean that in a drill sargeant "you can not fail" sort of way. Mistakes are completely acceptable as they are the only true source of learning, but "I suck, I'm not going to do this anymore" is out of the question.

I can't get through to her because she is 500 miles away. All she has to do to ignore me is sign off MSN, which she does without saying a word. I'm not really in a position to do anything. That said I'd do almost anything for my blood counterparts provided they can prove to me my time is not wasted. If they can't, blood starts to look pretty anemic.

So, a 30 year old is lower risk than a 40 year old? 35 is better than 45? Where do you draw the line, why and how?

I draw the line between pre-adult and adult, professional and non-professional. I make no distinctions between adults until health becomes a factor.

I'm not ignoring the large chunks of post you have written, just do not feel a need to respond to all of them.

But this only proves why she shouldn't have children. Not why no teenager can.

I'm not making the argument of why no teenager should have children. If that was your angle, I missed it.

"You have to shoot for the stars to land on the moon"

That's a good one, but logically nonsensical as you have to shoot for the moon to land on the moon, but I get it.