The Subaru SVX World Network   SVX Network Forums
Live Chat!
SVX or Subaru Links
Old Lockers
Photo Post
How-To Documents
Message Archive
SVX Shop Search
IRC users:

Go Back   The Subaru SVX World Network > SVX Main Forums > Technical Q & A

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 04-17-2006, 07:28 PM
Trevor's Avatar
Trevor Trevor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 5,223
Registered SVX
Quote:
Originally Posted by THAWA
It's throwing a code, this is an electrical fault. There are no teeth that transfer power front to rear.
The fact that it is "throwing a code", does not mean that the fault is restricted to an electrical problem. The manuals state that a code can indicate the seizure of a solenoid valve. This in spite of what may have been previously recorded here in the past. Refer my previous suggestions which you could follow.
__________________
Trevor, New Zealand.

As a child, on cold mornings I gladly stood in cowpats to warm my bare feet, but I detest bull$hit!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-17-2006, 07:35 PM
Manarius's Avatar
Manarius Manarius is offline
1995 Subaru SVX LSi Polo Green
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Grantham, PA (Near Harrisburg)
Posts: 2,119
Send a message via ICQ to Manarius Send a message via AIM to Manarius Send a message via MSN to Manarius Send a message via Yahoo to Manarius Send a message via Skype™ to Manarius
Registered SVX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor
The fact that it is "throwing a code", does not mean that the fault is restricted to an electrical problem. The manuals state that a code can indicate the seizure of a solenoid valve. This in spite of what may have been previously recorded here in the past. Refer my previous suggestions which you could follow.
Solenoid seizures don't usually cause binding. And when they fail, most often it's C and that means you'll have slow AWD response. That's why Thawa thinks it's electrical.
__________________
-Jason
(8/23/07-Present) 1995 Subaru SVX LSi (197k) Polo Green (#1102) 03/95
Mods: DDM Tuning 4500k 35w Low Beam HID, 100w H3 Bulbs, Extra Ground Cables, 15 minute $12.96 mod,
svxfiles designed transmission mount (), sporting a "new" tail light bar,
silver BBS rims, custom power steering cooler (one that doesn't dump ATF constantly), new negative lead cable, no more third or fourth gear
(1977-Present) 1977 Chevrolet Corvette (81k) Silver
(12/01/2011-Present) 2005 Subaru Outback 2.5i Limited 5MT (97k)
I have a bad feeling about this.
-Obi Wan Kenobi
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-17-2006, 08:01 PM
TomsSVX's Avatar
TomsSVX TomsSVX is offline
Maniac modifier
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Branchburg, New Jersey
Posts: 15,489
Registered SVX Classic SVX
I know what manarus is talking about but That is not the issue. Thanks trevor for the info, this tell me that when the Sol C is lacking power, it will be stuck in the full open position and will keep it FWD. now that I know that, there are 2 real world posibilities. One, the wires are pinches somewhere and this is not allowing the solnoid to close and release the rear wheels. OR the solenoid is fried and it is stuck open. SO, all I need is a pinout for the sol C wire outside of the trans that I can ge a voltage reading from. If there is power on the outside of the case, I will have to operate anyway. If not, I do not have to waste 7 qt's of good atf and I need to find out where my electric failure is happening. I will take a look at my service cd's and see what I can find with the wiring. Anyone with access to these files and has the ability to post them... please do

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-17-2006, 08:37 PM
Trevor's Avatar
Trevor Trevor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 5,223
Registered SVX
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsSVX
I know what manarus is talking about but That is not the issue. Thanks trevor for the info, this tell me that when the Sol C is lacking power, it will be stuck in the full open position and will keep it FWD. now that I know that, there are 2 real world posibilities. One, the wires are pinches somewhere and this is not allowing the solnoid to close and release the rear wheels. OR the solenoid is fried and it is stuck open. SO, all I need is a pinout for the sol C wire outside of the trans that I can ge a voltage reading from. If there is power on the outside of the case, I will have to operate anyway. If not, I do not have to waste 7 qt's of good atf and I need to find out where my electric failure is happening. I will take a look at my service cd's and see what I can find with the wiring. Anyone with access to these files and has the ability to post them... please do

Tom
As I advised earlier in the thread, you should make your measurements at pin 3 of the TCU sixteen pin block, B68, which is 3rd in from left on the top row, looking inwards, key at the top. The connecting wire is shown as grey in colour (color).

The lock up fuse completes a circuit to ground from terminal 2, 20 pin connector B66. ( 2nd top row)
__________________
Trevor, New Zealand.

As a child, on cold mornings I gladly stood in cowpats to warm my bare feet, but I detest bull$hit!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-17-2006, 08:42 PM
TomsSVX's Avatar
TomsSVX TomsSVX is offline
Maniac modifier
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Branchburg, New Jersey
Posts: 15,489
Registered SVX Classic SVX
ok thnx i will look into it when i have time when i am at home

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-28-2006, 10:29 PM
TomsSVX's Avatar
TomsSVX TomsSVX is offline
Maniac modifier
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Branchburg, New Jersey
Posts: 15,489
Registered SVX Classic SVX
Trevor, need some advice. I am actually starting to get back into this car now that Reading is over. I was downstairs for a few minutes before taking a look at things. I found the #3 connector in B68 and did a quick test. Seems that when the ignition is on, FWD fuse in place, and acc pedal completely released(closed throttle) I have power enough to light my test light(12v). When I press the acc pedal any amount the power drops(light turns off). Now This is what I expected but what I didn't expect is that the power does not return upon release of the pedal. I know I need to get under there with my multi-meter but I didn't have any light to work with tonight.

Another thing. When I was trying to see if it was binding before the acc pedal was pushed I had a strange occurance. The FWD light on the dash was lit for a couple seconds, 3 at most. It quickly shut off and did not come back on after repeating the same steps.

This all makes me wonder if it could be TPS related. If I press the acc pedal the TPS voltage should change appropriately. Now if when I release the pedal the voltage does not return to .5v at idle it would still read at as using the throttle and not allowing the Solenoid to close(also causing power at pin #3 not to come back). It is a long shot and just a comment I felt necessary to make. I will look further into it tomorrow. I should also have time tomorrow to get a multimeter on pin 3 and get some more readings. Please respond to this and tell me what you think. I am almost ready to make a trip to Harry' U-Pull it for a cheapo legacy/imprezza 5 speed and get rid of the slush-box, but I would rather keep this auto. Thanks for your help and input

Tom

Last edited by TomsSVX; 04-28-2006 at 10:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-29-2006, 12:33 AM
Trevor's Avatar
Trevor Trevor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 5,223
Registered SVX
Stick with it Tom,

The TPS does not directly control the solenoid as you no doubt realise, but does so via the TCU, so that you should check it carefully so as to rule it out of the equation. Refer the simple method I wrote up for the “how to” section. Measure the voltage by sticking a needle or pin through the wire as I suggest.

You may think this overkill, but this is good advice. Make notes as you go along, writing down each test or check you make. I know how confused one can become ( I always fall into this trap.) with this sort of issue and it is not easy to be sure what has and has not been checked, as the path gets long and involved. Especially when the project has to be attacked in dribs and drabs.

Your test light measurement will be spot on and has a distinct advantages as resistance in the circuit is likely to show, when it would not using a sensitive meter. Have no concern in this regard.

It is quite possible that the voltage at pin 3 does not return after closing the throttle due to the TCU “holding the instruction”, if you get my meaning. After releasing the accelerator, turn the ignition of and on again, without touching the accelerator, see if the voltage returns. If it does, I think you can assume all is as it should be and what I suggest applies. If not, you could be onto something.

The FWD drive light is another issue. I have a problem in that the manuals I have cover the non US set up, whereby the fuse locks the front and rear for AWD, rather than disconnects the rear drive, but it would seem that the solenoid control is the same. It would appear that this indicator light is directly on the FWD control circuit which could mean that this circuit became live from the fuse end, or alternatively through a back feed from the TCU. Did you by any chance have the fuse left in the holder and nearly connecting ? If nothing is untoward on that side, you must get back to suspecting the TCU.

Don’t get frustrated, get mad, put your teeth into it and try to make the challenge fun. However proceed logically and not like a bull at a gate like some !! The answer is there and you have the brains to find it.

All the very best, Trevor *<)
__________________
Trevor, New Zealand.

As a child, on cold mornings I gladly stood in cowpats to warm my bare feet, but I detest bull$hit!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-29-2006, 09:01 AM
TomsSVX's Avatar
TomsSVX TomsSVX is offline
Maniac modifier
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Branchburg, New Jersey
Posts: 15,489
Registered SVX Classic SVX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor
Stick with it Tom,

The TPS does not directly control the solenoid as you no doubt realise, but does so via the TCU, so that you should check it carefully so as to rule it out of the equation. Refer the simple method I wrote up for the “how to” section. Measure the voltage by sticking a needle or pin through the wire as I suggest.

You may think this overkill, but this is good advice. Make notes as you go along, writing down each test or check you make. I know how confused one can become ( I always fall into this trap.) with this sort of issue and it is not easy to be sure what has and has not been checked, as the path gets long and involved. Especially when the project has to be attacked in dribs and drabs.

Your test light measurement will be spot on and has a distinct advantages as resistance in the circuit is likely to show, when it would not using a sensitive meter. Have no concern in this regard.

It is quite possible that the voltage at pin 3 does not return after closing the throttle due to the TCU “holding the instruction”, if you get my meaning. After releasing the accelerator, turn the ignition of and on again, without touching the accelerator, see if the voltage returns. If it does, I think you can assume all is as it should be and what I suggest applies. If not, you could be onto something.

The FWD drive light is another issue. I have a problem in that the manuals I have cover the non US set up, whereby the fuse locks the front and rear for AWD, rather than disconnects the rear drive, but it would seem that the solenoid control is the same. It would appear that this indicator light is directly on the FWD control circuit which could mean that this circuit became live from the fuse end, or alternatively through a back feed from the TCU. Did you by any chance have the fuse left in the holder and nearly connecting ? If nothing is untoward on that side, you must get back to suspecting the TCU.

Don’t get frustrated, get mad, put your teeth into it and try to make the challenge fun. However proceed logically and not like a bull at a gate like some !! The answer is there and you have the brains to find it.

All the very best, Trevor *<)
A few things. When I turn the key off and back on, the voltage returns to pin 3 no problem. In the US models the fuse grounds the cicuit and by this should be feeding a constant 12.v signal to the sol. in order to keep it strictly FWD. My concern is that it is not completing this circuit somewhere down the line between the fusebox and the TCU. I have replaced the TCU with another and nothing has changed. I figured this the easiest step and I would do this first. I do have a lead comming off the white(middle) wire of the TPS to test voltage without it grounding when I do not want it to. I am really leaning toward this being an issue as the idle is sometimes a little funky. But the only disheartening thing is, once I "blip" the throttle the idle will settle to where it should be and does not change. But when I do this, it is still binding. I would really like to get in it with a Select Monitor so I can see the volatages while I am driving or testing instead of being burried under the dash and hitting the gas and brake wit my elbows I will give you more information as I get it but for now this is all I know. There are too many things not doing what they should for it to be sol. C alone but it still very well could be so I am not ruling out that option as of yet.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-29-2006, 01:59 PM
TomsSVX's Avatar
TomsSVX TomsSVX is offline
Maniac modifier
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Branchburg, New Jersey
Posts: 15,489
Registered SVX Classic SVX
Took some more measurements today. At pin #3 I have the following voltages

Key on engine off
Closed throttle- 11.25v
WOT- .15 volts

Engine on
Closed throttle- 13.3 volts
Quick run to WOT in park- .35 volts(at least i think thats what I saw)

I double checked the TPS and it is showing .5v at idle and it does increase along with throttle movement. I have a feeling more and more that it is the actualy solenoid itself. Later I may have time to get under it and measure voltage off of the sol. C wire entering the transmission to see if I am losing it in the harness somewhere. If not I will split the ass end of the case open and check volatge at the solenoid itself. I may just have to buy a new solenoid but I want to be sure first.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-29-2006, 04:11 PM
nipper nipper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Oceanside NY
Posts: 91
HI new here

I'm sort of an expert on torque bind on the other soobie board. i just posted this to another thread i hope this help. The autos dont have a center differnetial, the manuals have one, in conjunction with a viscous coupling.

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32960

i have a beutiful description from subaru on how the 4eat transmission works if anyone wants it.

nipper
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-30-2006, 01:30 AM
oab_au oab_au is offline
Registered User
Subaru Gold Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Coffs Harb, Australia.
Posts: 5,032
Significant Technical Input Registered SVX
Tom I think it there is confusion on the C solenoid. The one on the US model is different to the VTD model. I have written about it before some where. The one in yours, turns FWD, when on full signal. With no signal, the transfer clutch is full on.

The VTD is the opposite, no pressure with no signal, full pressure with full signal. The difference is in the C solenoid, the US one is normally closed. The one in the VTD is normally open. I guess that this was to allow the units to "fail safe" differently. Yours defaults to 50/50, ours to no Limited Slip Clutch.

This the VTD unit, but your hydraulics are the same.

You can see that the C solenoid bleeds off The yellow pilot pressure, to reduce the pressure on the transfer spool valve so that the spring can move it across to turn the RED line pressure off the transfer clutch.

For it to bind, either the transfer valve has to stick in the on position, or the C solenoid is not fully bleeding off the pilot pressure, to hold the transfer valve on.

It your case I think it is the C solenoid that is not opening fully. Maybe it has a mechanical problem to prevent full armature travel, or there is some foreign body stuck in it preventing full travel. There is also a chance that the duty cycle signal is reduced by a resistance somewhere, though I don't know if the TCU could detect that, to post a code.

Harvey.
__________________
One Arm Bloke.
Tell it like it is!

95 Lsi. Bordeaux Pearl, Aust. RHD.149,000Kls Subaru BBS wheels.
97 Liberty GX Auto sedan. 320,000Kls.
04 Liberty 30R Auto Premium. 92.000kls.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-30-2006, 09:47 AM
TomsSVX's Avatar
TomsSVX TomsSVX is offline
Maniac modifier
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Branchburg, New Jersey
Posts: 15,489
Registered SVX Classic SVX
Ok so this confirms my suspicion that when the solenoid does not have an ~12v signal the transfer clutces are fully engaged. In this case I know what I am looking for. Thank you guys and I will keep you updated as I have time to work on it

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-01-2006, 12:27 PM
THAWA
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor
The fact that it is "throwing a code", does not mean that the fault is restricted to an electrical problem. The manuals state that a code can indicate the seizure of a solenoid valve. This in spite of what may have been previously recorded here in the past. Refer my previous suggestions which you could follow.
I view a failed solenoid as an electrical fault, but I see how you could think of it as a mechanical fault. Mechanical fault to me means more like clutches stuck or worn, or broken drum or something. It's just different thinking.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-01-2006, 06:45 PM
Trevor's Avatar
Trevor Trevor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 5,223
Registered SVX
Quote:
Originally Posted by THAWA
I view a failed solenoid as an electrical fault, but I see how you could think of it as a mechanical fault. Mechanical fault to me means more like clutches stuck or worn, or broken drum or something. It's just different thinking.
OK but nothing to do with clutches atc. The solenoid valve, the item referred to, can fail in a mechanical or electrical sense, i.e. (1) The armature or valve could be mechanically seized/stuck, open or closed. (2) The solenoid coil could be electrically shorted or open circuit, either fault thus effecting the hydraulic circuit.
__________________
Trevor, New Zealand.

As a child, on cold mornings I gladly stood in cowpats to warm my bare feet, but I detest bull$hit!
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-08-2006, 07:51 PM
TomsSVX's Avatar
TomsSVX TomsSVX is offline
Maniac modifier
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Branchburg, New Jersey
Posts: 15,489
Registered SVX Classic SVX
Ok, finally got it up in the air tonight and did aquickl test. Turns out that my sol. C is working and it is working properly. With the ignition on/engine off, when I hit the throttle, I can hear the sol. cycling. As I open the throttle, the solenoid cycles less and less until it doesn't cycle anymore at/close to WOT. So, Why the hell am I having a binding issue and why is the Sol C code comming up?

Tom
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2015 SVX World Network
(208)-906-1122