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  #1  
Old 08-22-2006, 08:57 AM
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Electrophil Electrophil is offline
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A forgotten chapter in the novel 1984

Big Brother missed this one when the book was written.

Black box

I don't drive aggressively even a little. I rarely break 70mph on the interstate. Cars whizz by me in the left lane. I spend too much time worrying my 161k + mile tranny will end up scattered on the road.

But I still don't like being watched.
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  #2  
Old 08-22-2006, 09:15 AM
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lhopp77 lhopp77 is offline
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Agree

Robert, I suspect we would be in full agreement on this subject. Other than the insurance lobby and lawyers, it would be interesting to find out what is driving this and which legislatures are in bed with it. The auto industry is probably behind it also, simply to protect themselves from law suits from millions of lawyers.

When it gets right down to it, our main problems are the lawyers and their lawsuit driven agenda.

I think one of the best things in this administration has been attempts at legal reform that would limit lawsuit liabilities. I know the legal lobby trys to make this as a pro big business issue, but in reality it would serve to reduce trivial lawsuits and not force actions such as this to protect big business from these lawsuits. Our prices would actually go down and we would be much more competitive in the world market place which in turn would help our job market.

I remember the Ford Pinto and the gas tank issue. Those were great little commuter cars and reasonably safe. The car was taken off of the market because the gas tank would rupture with a rearend collision of 50 mph or higher----no chit---what car could reasonably be expected to take that kind of impact??

While lawyers on one hand are saying that they are protecting our civil liberties by their actions on the other side they are greatly reducing our civil liberties.

Another interesting sideline. Where is the ACLU in this blatant attack on privacy and monumental erosion of civil liberties??? The next logical progression is this will be GPS positioning added to the black box so you can be tracked in your every movement.

Lee

Last edited by lhopp77; 08-22-2006 at 09:53 AM.
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  #3  
Old 08-22-2006, 10:19 AM
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SubaSteevo SubaSteevo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhopp77
I remember the Ford Pinto and the gas tank issue. Those were great little commuter cars and reasonably safe. The car was taken off of the market because the gas tank would rupture with a rearend collision of 50 mph or higher----no chit---what car could reasonably be expected to take that kind of impact??
The main issue with the Pinto was that Ford recognized the design flaw, recognized it was going to kill people, and determined it was more economical for them to ignore it and deal with the lawsuits. For the record, it was at approximately 30mph at which the gas tank would rupture, with a 40mph impact the doors jammed trapping the passengers inside
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  #4  
Old 08-22-2006, 10:23 AM
RSVX RSVX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaSteevo
The main issue with the Pinto was that Ford recognized the design flaw, recognized it was going to kill people, and determined it was more economical for them to ignore it and deal with the lawsuits. For the record, it was at approximately 30mph at which the gas tank would rupture, with a 40mph impact the doors jammed trapping the passengers inside
They should have named it the Ford Death Trap...

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  #5  
Old 08-22-2006, 10:27 AM
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And back to the subject, the black box = bad

However, I think the technology could be used to limit lawsuits if instead of tracking speed, etc it tracked G-forces. Not only would you be able to tell if the car was accellerating/decellerating, you'd be able to tell how much force was impacted on the vehicle. It would be a little difficult to win a back injury lawsuit when there was only a .01 g-force change.
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  #6  
Old 08-22-2006, 10:57 AM
RSVX RSVX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaSteevo
And back to the subject, the black box = bad

However, I think the technology could be used to limit lawsuits if instead of tracking speed, etc it tracked G-forces. Not only would you be able to tell if the car was accellerating/decellerating, you'd be able to tell how much force was impacted on the vehicle. It would be a little difficult to win a back injury lawsuit when there was only a .01 g-force change.
accelerometers for the win!
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  #7  
Old 08-22-2006, 10:58 AM
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lhopp77 lhopp77 is offline
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Irrelevant

Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaSteevo
The main issue with the Pinto was that Ford recognized the design flaw, recognized it was going to kill people, and determined it was more economical for them to ignore it and deal with the lawsuits. For the record, it was at approximately 30mph at which the gas tank would rupture, with a 40mph impact the doors jammed trapping the passengers inside
The specifics are irrelevant for my point, so I am not going to bother looking up the specific case. My entire point is the lawyer driven---lawsuit mentality which hurts us all. Just a few blurbs on some of the cases in the Pinto time frame clearly reveals that---

Check out overlawyered.com for more samples of the lawsuit mentality.

"On the Ford Pinto case, the best resource is unfortunately not online, but is well worth a trip to the local law library: the late Gary Schwartz's 1991 Rutgers Law Review article "The Myth of the Ford Pinto Case" (43 Rutgers L. Rev. 1013-1068). Schwartz, a law professor at UCLA and prominent expert on product liability, showed that (as our editor summed up his findings in 1993): "everyone's perceived ideas about the fabled 'smoking gun' memo are false. The actual memo did not pertain to Pintos, or even Ford products, but to American cars in general; it dealt with rollovers, not rear-end collisions; it did not contemplate the matter of tort liability at all, let alone accept it as cheaper than a design change; it assigned a value to human life because federal regulators, for whose eyes it was meant, themselves employed that concept in their deliberations; and the value it used was one that they, the regulators, had set forth in documents. In retrospect, Schwartz writes, the Pinto's safety record appears to have been very typical of its time and class."

In July 1999, rekindling a public debate about the irrationality of jury decisions in product liability cases, two California juries returned enormous verdicts within three days of each other: a Los Angeles jury voted $5 billion against GM for the allegedly defective design of its 1979 Chevrolet Malibu, and a jury in rural Ceres, Cal. returned a $290 million verdict against Ford in a case against its Bronco truck. The cases are discussed on Overlawyered.com in the entries for July 10, August 27 and September 10 (GM) and August 24 (Ford). In the General Motors case, plaintiffs successfully prevented GM from telling the jury that the accident had been caused by a drunk driver who had been convicted of a felony and imprisoned over the accident; or that the Malibu's real-life crash statistics showed it to be safer than the average car of its era; or that the alternative crash design proffered by plaintiffs raised safety concerns of its own and was not widely used by other makers. In the Ford case, a long series of emotionally manipulative trial tactics by the plaintiff's lawyers paid off when one juror told her colleagues that the reason they had to vote for liability had come to her in a dream."

The legal mentality was my point and not to get bogged down in minutia of the case since it only applied to that specific car and made NO comparison of most cars on the market at the time. THAT is a lot of what is wrong with our society. Georgia has more lawyers than the entire nation of Japan. These lawyers HAVE to make a living somehow and that "how" is by attacking every single element and sector of our society---right or wrong. Anything to curtail this HAS to be good.

Lee
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  #8  
Old 08-22-2006, 11:00 AM
dcarrb dcarrb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrophil
But I still don't like being watched.
Drive through Atlanta (and surely most every major metropolitan areas) on an Interstate and you're on camera all the way. I understand the rationale there, but still, that's spooky.

Radio frequency identification implants in everything we buy... that's more worrisome than black boxes in cars, to my mind.

Ford's been doing the Pinto tapdance once more over instances of the Crown Vic platform exploding from violent rear impact and, again, the issue isn't that fuel tank rupture from high-speed rear impacts is exceptional, but that Ford deliberately elected not to install protective gear to prevent rear suspension hardware from acting like a can opener on the tank in the event of such impact. Even my '68 Mustang had steel guards to help prevent bumper hardware from penetrating the fuel tank (the top of which happened to serve as the floor of the trunk, as if those guards would have helped anything).

dcb
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  #9  
Old 08-22-2006, 11:08 AM
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Noir Noir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcarrb
Drive through Atlanta (and surely most every major metropolitan areas) on an Interstate and you're on camera all the way. I understand the rationale there, but still, that's spooky.

Radio frequency identification implants in everything we buy... that's more worrisome than black boxes in cars, to my mind.

Ford's been doing the Pinto tapdance once more over instances of the Crown Vic platform exploding from violent rear impact and, again, the issue isn't that fuel tank rupture from high-speed rear impacts is exceptional, but that Ford deliberately elected not to install protective gear to prevent rear suspension hardware from acting like a can opener on the tank in the event of such impact. Even my '68 Mustang had steel guards to help prevent bumper hardware from penetrating the fuel tank (the top of which happened to serve as the floor of the trunk, as if those guards would have helped anything).

dcb
and i thought i was the only one that noticed all those cameras. at every intersection of every main street you will find cameraS.
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  #10  
Old 08-22-2006, 11:22 AM
dcarrb dcarrb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
and i thought i was the only one that noticed all those cameras. at every intersection of every main street you will find cameraS.
And on those poles way over the Interstates... they're everywhere.

I unintentionally blew a (quick) yellow at a major intersection down there several weekends ago and am still kinda anxious to see if I get a ticket in the mail.

dcb
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  #11  
Old 08-22-2006, 11:23 AM
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Manarius Manarius is offline
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Glad my car's old and doesn't record that kind of stuff.
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  #12  
Old 08-22-2006, 11:26 AM
dcarrb dcarrb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manarius
Glad my car's old and doesn't record that kind of stuff.
Hmm. If the SVX ECU and TCU can store error codes...

dcb
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  #13  
Old 08-22-2006, 11:21 PM
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Electrophil Electrophil is offline
Which manual is "that" in??
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcarrb
Drive through Atlanta (and surely most every major metropolitan areas) on an Interstate and you're on camera all the way. I understand the rationale there, but still, that's spooky.


dcb
We have a cable channel here dedicated to those cameras, and they switch every couple of minutes. You probably have that same channel hidden among yours there in Atlanta also. Spooky is the correct word.

In Vegas though, the cameras are not allowed to be attached to recording devices, but.... that doesn't mean they aren't.

Maybe they aren't... I keep going back to our mayor being a retired mafia attorney... He's probably against the recording aspect.
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Is Bush in jail yet? (Looks frantically at watch, then back up) How about now? Now? Come onnnnnn...... Someone freeze me until January, this wait is killing me.
Update: 09 January, and still not in jail! Wassup??

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  #14  
Old 08-22-2006, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcarrb
And on those poles way over the Interstates... they're everywhere.

I unintentionally blew a (quick) yellow at a major intersection down there several weekends ago and am still kinda anxious to see if I get a ticket in the mail.

dcb

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