Close to another World War?

[dromano]

Believing in the truth is not the same as knowing the truth. In the Russia/Georgia conflict we may never know the "truth". All we know for sure is that Putin was and remains KGB. Remember he stated "the break up of the USSR was the 'most' tragic event of the 20th century"!!!! He puts it ahead of WWI,WWII & the Holocaust. By what is going on in Georgia Putin looks to me to like a Soviet that wants it all back in place and his oil is likely to take him well down that path.

Sov13t, instead of accusing me of being an air head who repeats what big media says, try discussing the topic. I was in Germany for 2 years in 67-68, the threat was always there that USSR armor could come over the border at any time, that was no fun. That situation was pretty much mutual assured destruction. I would guess by your comments (if they can be called comments) you are 47 years younger than I and most likely a lefty. Again, discuss, don't spew.

[Stilor]

Originally Posted by dromano

Was Georgia "set up" by Putin? It was not the normal course of events for Russia to have such a large force so close when Georgia attacked starting the conflict.

Really, I am not sure I understand what "large force" you're talking about. I do not have any official information, but according to the unofficial information the only corps which are not normally stationed along the Russian south border are airborne divisions and strategic aviation - which were not "so close" to Georgia.

Originally Posted by dromano

Remember he stated "the break up of the USSR was the 'most' tragic event of the 20th century"!!!!

To be exact, he called it the most tragic geopolitical catastrophe. He further explained that the result of that collapse was that the world suddenly became unipolar, without any checks and balances. So I guess he just placed the wars into a separate category.

And imagine the same happening to US - would you call it a catastrophe if it suddenly breaks into 15 separate countries which try to survive at the expense of each other? I tell you, you don't want to live in Russia as it was in the 90-ies. Not that most of the surrounding states were any better.

Originally Posted by dromano

try discussing the topic.

Well, my $.02 contribution to the news coverage:

• Live interview with Ossetian girl who was visiting her relatives in South Ossetia when the war broke out.

• More complete interview from the same girl and her aunt - which was not interrupted by the news host.

• You probably saw some CNN coverage on the outcome of bombstrikes in Gori. Here CNN has been caught red-handed using the footage of Tskhinvali as if it were Gori.

• Want to see more of Tskhinvali ruins? Look here. Or here (just photos).

So, I am not saying that you fell victim of big media brainwashing. But the fact is, the brainwashing IS very strong in the US mass-media. Please keep that in mind and take the news US with a grain of salt. Russia may not be the best country in the world, but whatever "set up" there was for Georgia (if there was one), it could not justify multiple-launch rockets systems use on a sleeping city at night.

PS. I have not been to S.Ossetia myself, but I have been to Abhazia in 2003. I talked to some people and if I said the Abkhazians hate the idea of being a part of Georgia, that would be a gross understatement.

[dromano]

Stilor,

What is your connection to the Russia/Georgia situation? You sound like you have a dog in the fight. Anyone that defends the Russians goes on my black list, if you need the reasons, try to picture a person who has lived thru 37 more years of history than you. You sound like a Commie, a Bolshevik radical, look in the mirror, do you belong in a capitolist system??????????

I can't believe that there are so many whimp a$$ lefties supporting RUSSIA in Putin's imperialistic agenda. Get a f***ing clue!!!! Maybe when you non-patriots spill some blood for your country you will get IT

Are you a "world citizen" that wants no borders?????? Do you love the invasion from the south???? You are pathetic, so what do I know

[Stilor]

Originally Posted by dromano

Stilor,

What is your connection to the Russia/Georgia situation? You sound like you have a dog in the fight. Anyone that defends the Russians goes on my black list, if you need the reasons, try to picture a person who has lived thru 37 more years of history than you. You sound like a Commie, a Bolshevik radical, look in the mirror, do you belong in a capitolist system??????????

I can't believe that there are so many whimp a$$ lefties supporting RUSSIA in Putin's imperialistic agenda. Get a f***ing clue!!!! Maybe when you non-patriots spill some blood for your country you will get IT

Are you a "world citizen" that wants no borders?????? Do you love the invasion from the south???? You are pathetic, so what do I know

Well, you missed it completely I am a Russian citizen. You probably forgot that this forum is not restricted to US citizens, it is called SVX World Network.

And please don't mix patriotism and mass-media lies. If you think you can live with your eyes closed and hear fairy tales from whatever news host you prefer - it's you who's being pathetic. Some people get through the childhood by the age of 20. Some still need a fairy tale at the age of 67.

[dromano]

Originally Posted by Stilor

Well, you missed it completely I am a Russian citizen. You probably forgot that this forum is not restricted to US citizens, it is called SVX World Network.

And please don't mix patriotism and mass-media lies. If you think you can live with your eyes closed and hear fairy tales from whatever news host you prefer - it's you who's being pathetic. Some people get through the childhood by the age of 20. Some still need a fairy tale at the age of 67.

/

A joke is a joke and you are one. No forgets. you are in Putin's shorts. what a joke Get real, OMG, punk a$$ commies!!!!!

[Stilor]

Originally Posted by dromano

/

A joke is a joke and you are one. No forgets. you are in Putin's shorts. what a joke Get real, OMG, punk a$$ commies!!!!!

Heh, you're even worse than I thought I hoped you're misled. Instead, you proved to be self-sufficient: you don't need ANY reality besides self-induced hallucinations. Anyone saying something different from your point of view just gets a bunch of $$$-substituted words. Hey, wasn't that you who asked to discuss facts instead of just spitting at your opponents? Running short on arguments?

[ensteele]

Originally Posted by dromano

/

A joke is a joke and you are one. No forgets. you are in Putin's shorts. what a joke Get real, OMG, punk a$$ commies!!!!!

Please don't flame here. Discussion is fine, but no personal attacks please.

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by Stilor

Well, you missed it completely I am a Russian citizen. You probably forgot that this forum is not restricted to US citizens, it is called SVX World Network.

Are you trying or intending to become an American citizen?? That would make a difference in my books. If you are purely a Russian citizen here for short term work or visit--that is one thing, but trying to become an American citizen with your obvious distaste for American government and total misunderstanding of our mass media is another issue. And---your very obvious first allegiance to Russia is something totally different from what the vast majority of Americans expect from citizens or even prospective citizens.

I suspect that is what is bothering dromano, as it does me.

I admit that I don't have a lot of knowledge about Georgia or the current situation and have not stated an opinion one way or the other, but the situation there and the obvious Russian attempts to regain their previous world stature is very concerning. We have no designs on Russia and pose no threat to them as long as they allow countries around them to remain free and independent to follow there own selected courses.

I will say that you also have a very little understanding of things in this hemisphere, so we are even. Your previous remarks on the US and Panama reflect this lack of understanding.

Lee

[Stilor]

If you are purely a Russian citizen here for short term work or visit--that is one thing, but trying to become an American citizen with your obvious distaste for American government and total misunderstanding of our mass media is another issue. And---your very obvious first allegiance to Russia is something totally different from what the vast majority of Americans expect from citizens or even prospective citizens.

I didn't know American citizens are required to pledge allegiance to Georgia Strictly speaking, US should have no stakes in that conflict and American mass media should have covered both Georgian and Ossetian views on this conflict. Their coverage is, however, one-sided. That's why I do have a distaste for mass media: they should inform, not manipulate.

And I don't have a distaste for American government as a whole. I believe that in many cases US made the world better, be it 1991 Gulf war (where immediate actions from US military stopped Iraqi invasion in Kuwait) or recent denuclearization of North Korea (though that was a joint diplomatic victory for several countries, not only US) . It's just this case that bothers me: the US government is ignoring the mass murders by Georgian forces in Ossetia and talks about punishing Russia for protecting Ossetian civilians.

And the last but not the least: I thought one of the American values was the right of speech, so that even being a US citizen, you don't have to agree with everything the government does.

We have no designs on Russia and pose no threat to them as long as they allow countries around them to remain free and independent to follow there own selected courses.

And Russia does not threaten sovereignty of its neighbors. I hope you also admit that Russia has the right to change its attitude towards its neighbors depending on the course they choose. For example, it may impose import/export restrictions on the countries which take unfriendly stance.

I will say that you also have a very little understanding of things in this hemisphere, so we are even. Your previous remarks on the US and Panama reflect this lack of understanding.

I would welcome your explanation of that Panama operation. I was basing my remarks on Wikipedia's description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...sion_of_Panama

Safeguarding the lives of U.S. citizens in Panama. In his statement, Bush claimed that Noriega had declared that a state of war existed between the United States and Panama and that he also threatened the lives of the approximately 35,000 US citizens living there. There had been numerous clashes between U.S. and Panamanian forces; one US Marine had been killed a few days earlier and several incidents of harassment of US citizens had taken place.

[lhopp77]

I notice you evade the question about whether or not you are a citizen or trying to become an American citizen. Like I said, that makes a big difference on how many of us perceive your comments. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech but questions national allegiance and loyalties.

Again, the Panama situation goes back much further than the explanation you quote. Why the Americans citizens were in Panama, our vested interest in the country and many other factors. And I do understand that the Georgia situation is not clear cut either and goes back a long ways and has changed many times over the last couple hundred years.

I have many problems with our news media as I have stated many times before if you have read many of my political posts. BUT--it is still the best and least controlled press in the world. I like to check multiple sources (including foreign sources) and don't depend on just one source for the truth. As most of us know--the press gets it wrong at first much of the time, but manages to get it right over time. As you know when it comes to internal issues and particularly political ones, I prefer a news agency that generally has reps from both sides of the issue on at the same time. The only one that does that consistently is FOX cable news. But, they are not the best for international coverage.

Lee

[Stilor]

I didn't evade the question, I have not decided myself whether I would apply for citizenship in the future. Not the last reason affecting this decision would be whether my views agree with the actions of the government.

That's nice you mentioned FOX News. You may have noticed that one of the links I posted above is a live interview with Ossetian girl on FOX News. I don't know if any other channel made similar attempt to provide unbiased coverage. Hopefully, they will follow the suit and right their wrongs.

By the way, its seems that the US government somewhat backed off: John Bayerly, US ambassador in Moscow has said in his interview that US find the initial military response to the outbreak justified, he only criticized Russia for crossing the Ossetian-Georgian border. As a retired military, you probably understand that you can't stop the invasion by just repelling the armed forces. Now that the shooting range of weapons is dozens or hundred miles, one can stay within your borders and deliver missile strikes. That's why US military crossed the Kuwait-Iraq border in 1991, that's why Russian military crossed the Ossetian-Georgian border now.

John Bayerly also criticized some Russian politicians for suggesting the deposition of Georgian president. But that was not the official stance of Russian government and each country has its own share of radicals. The official stance was to collect the evidence of war crimes, submit that evidence to the Hague tribunal and let the international judges decide whether Mr. Saakashvili is guilty of those crimes. After all, "democratically elected" does not equal "immune from prosecution".

[Sov13t]

Do you really believe that allegiances and loyalty come with US citizenship? I'm sorry to disappoint you, but that's just not reality in today's United States. The floodgates are open, and Russians are the least of your worries. There are individuals that are granted U.S. citizenship that do not even speak the language - they have interpreters translate the oath to them and you’re talking about allegiances or questioning loyalty? We care enough to argue and worry about our two nation's relations. While I believe you have in general been much more vicious in your attacks, arguably based on stereotypical assumptions, on us than we have been with our rebuttals of your arguments, the fact is we still care about how this situation ends, and in fact hope it ends in a good way rather than blindly pointing our fingers and shouting "you capitalist pigs, you will pay for everything!" There is absolutely no question that Russian people, in general, do NOT want another World War or any war for that matter. Out of all the countries that have been in World War's, Russia has suffered the most, we will always remember and honor our past, and unlike some, we are able to change our opinions and are able to deal with stereotypes, Cold War is over but it seems, unfortunately, not for everyone. This brings us back to the argument... Russia did NOT start this, and the tag of "aggressor" in this case is a vivid falsification, as Stilor points out, Russia is and always will protect its citizens whether it is Osetia or anywhere else in the world. Also, why is it "very concerning" that Russia is trying to regain its "world stature"? Every country should strive to be a better nation. Russia is one of a few countries that can stand up and be a source of power, strength and stability in an area of the world that is not well understood (understandably mind you) by western powers. Is it really America's right or responsibility to make sure that all countries abide by its political will? Even in lands far away and ill understood to them? If you take a step back and reappraise the situation, I believe you will come to the conclusion that it would not be advantageous, to either the US or any other country in the world, to act in such a manner.

I know I am restating Stilor here, but I started writing the response before he posted his, thus I will leave this bit in here:

Isn't it ironic, that the interview with a 12 year old Osetian girl that was being interrupted by the host with intention to evade the blame on Georgian government is actually FOX News that you speak of?

[dromano]

Sov13t, Stilor,

Please understand the perspective of Lee (lhopp77) and me, we have lived the majority of our lives with the threat of Soviet mutual assured destruction.

How do you describe Putin?

Georgia, right or wrong is a democracy.

Noriega was a drug cartel money launderer, among other moral short comings.
The canal is vital to the world, a pin head could not be allowed to control it.

How do you explain the destruction of a vital rail bridge by Russian troops that is a big part of the Georgian economy? Did you see any Georgian apartment buildings burning and showing signs of artillery attacks? Why would Russian troops haul off Georgian patrol boats?

How long will Russian troops remain in Georgia?

What is your view of life in the Soviet gulags?

What Russian leaders do you admire and why do you admire them?

I don't watch CNN, CBS News. ABC News, NBC News or PBS News Hour, I am totally brain washed by FNC.

I apologize for my rants yesterday.

Is it your position that Russian armored units that ended up in Georgia are always along the Russian border north of the Ossetias?

[ensteele]

Thanks for getting back to a discussion.

I too grew up with the threat of the A Bomb and remember the bomb shelters and stupid drills where we would get under our desks in case of an attack - as if that would help anyone. I am not worried about the people of Russia, but do understand that the leaders are the ones that we have to worry about. I can change my mind about the world, but still have to keep looking over my shoulder to see if anything has really changed. When the news of this first came up, my first thought was - "Well, here we go again."

[dromano]

Originally Posted by ensteele

Thanks for getting back to a discussion.

I too grew up with the threat of the A Bomb and remember the bomb shelters and stupid drills where we would get under our desks in case of an attack - as if that would help anyone. I am not worried about the people of Russia, but do understand that the leaders are the ones that we have to worry about. I can change my mind about the world, but still have to keep looking over my shoulder to see if anything has really changed. When the news of this first came up, my first thought was - "Well, here we go again."

Pretty much my initial reaction as well. It is the leaders, Putin was, is and will always be KGB first as well as an oil mogul.