Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

[bazza]

[Dessertrunner]

A number of parts arrived today so did a full trial assembly. Things like plumbing to heads still to go and remake a couple of the final design plates and also make the clamp for the pump. Still un decided if I will cut the mounting plates off the side of the pump. It will look better with out.

Tech info,
- Design enabled removal exist oil pump.
- Oil pump drive is off the crank to enable the load on the timing belt to be reduced. Other designs drive the oil pump from the timing belt.
- Pump will do 6,600 rpm when engine does 10,000rpm.
- Peak flow will be 140lpm.
- Belt used while small is rated at 12 times the pump load.
- In the image you can see the belt tensior which is rated for 15,000 rpm.
- The design allows for the timing belt covers to be reinstall with a slight gap in the bottom for the belts to come out.
- Crank still uses the exist seal.
- The final height of the dry sump is less then the exisiting sump.

Any way thats a summary of were its at. I am pretty happy with the way it has come together.

[RallyBob]

Looking good. If you have the chance, I'm curious about the measurement from the block's lower pan rail to the lowest portion of the pump and/or lines.

[Dessertrunner]

Hi Bob,
I need to find a diffferent outlet hose for the pump and then I can measure it for you. Or still better I can put the sump alone side and take a couple of photos to show the height relationship. I was a bit stressed about it when it was all bolted together for the first time then I put the old sump next to it and it looked good.
Tony

[oab_au]

Your pump and sump look the goods Tony, as long as the ground clearance will be ok to clear the sand dunes.
The output of 140lt/min. is twice the original, so there should be no problem in supplying the flow needed. This would be worth doing sum measuring of the flow through the engine, would not have to be running, just 65psi feeding oil into the galleries, and measuring what comes out. Won’t be the same as running when the rods are flinging the oil out, but it will give a good ides of how much will go through.

Those plugs on the top of the galleries look to be over the three plain mains. Why they have those “things’ in there, no idea, but it is a great place to feed the pump into the galleries.

I don’t think there is any worry about the bearing 5 problems, as I think I can see that it is caused by sump surge causing air to enter the pump. I don’t have a crankcase to look at, but the pictures that Bazza put up of the cases spells the problem.

I have always thought that the oil came from the pump/filter up to the top of the block at the pressure switch, there it splits to the rear of the block to feed the rear of the crank, and across the top of the block to feed the front of the crank.

Looking at the pictures I see that, right at the split of the two long runs at the pressure switch, there is a feed to No.1 main that feeds No.1 rod.
No idea why it is fed from there, instead of the gallery on the right side, that feeds the front of the crank, but when the pump takes air in, No.1 will rob the rest of the system of pressure, and flow.

The front half of the system feeds the No. 3 main that feeds rods 2 and 3, also the two plain mains, 2 and 4, that don’t feed rods.
The other side that runs to the rear of the crank feeds No.1 main and rod, No.5 that feeds rods 4 and 5, the plain main No.6, and No. 7 main, that feeds No.7 rod. So forgetting the plain mains, the front side feeds two oil flinging rods, and the rear feeds 4 oil-flinging rods. No. 7 feeds one rod, No.5 feeds rods 4 and 5 both through the one main, so this is the that runs out of oil flow first, and rods 4 and 5 suffer.
I think that as long as the oil it not aerated, and the flow is sufficient and fed into the galleries, and your sump and pump will take care of those requirements, there should be no problem.

[Dessertrunner]

Hi Harvey,
The forum has beena bit quite of late.

Measured the height of the pump below the engine and its about 20mm more clearance then the existing sump at the deepest point. When I get the hoses pluged in I will post a compare image. Hope to install a cross beam member off a car so it all looks clearer.

Bazza has done up a table of the viscosity of oils that should be suitable he also has a heater in his dry sump so we plan to play around till we get the a oil that we can pump at full 140l pm but only gives a pressure of 65psi. Not really clear if this is the right plan but from talking to a guy in the UK that is how they handled high flows with out redrilling the block. Before I plu the oil into different ports I would like to run flow tests.
We will let you know how it goes.


HOW WE RUN FLOW TESTS.
I would like to put a bit more of shared thought on the "How, Were & Why" also what we "Expect To See". For this reason I think we need everyones input.
There are 7 jurnals & 6 big ends so in simple terms when we run the test on the block I should see a different flow in the jurnals that have big ends hanging off them. In simple terms one oil gallery that has 1 jurnal & two big ends should have 3 times the flow.
Do we argree???

With out getting to complex the test has to be run with the crankshaft in other wise there may not be enough back pressure to get the correct flow to each oil point, or do we block off the other galleries then measure the flow each at a time.

I personlly don't think the how is clear yet, as you mentioned Harvey the main gallerie at the top may cause restriction so do we start there then work our measurment from that point.



Its all not clear in my head how we are going to get this data so it accurate and usable.

Tony

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Hi Harvey,
The forum has beena bit quite of late.

Measured the height of the pump below the engine and its about 20mm more clearance then the existing sump at the deepest point. When I get the hoses pluged in I will post a compare image. Hope to install a cross beam member off a car so it all looks clearer.

Bazza has done up a table of the viscosity of oils that should be suitable he also has a heater in his dry sump so we plan to play around till we get the a oil that we can pump at full 140l pm but only gives a pressure of 65psi. Not really clear if this is the right plan but from talking to a guy in the UK that is how they handled high flows with out redrilling the block. Before I plu the oil into different ports I would like to run flow tests.
We will let you know how it goes.


HOW WE RUN FLOW TESTS.
I would like to put a bit more of shared thought on the "How, Were & Why" also what we "Expect To See". For this reason I think we need everyones input.
There are 7 jurnals & 6 big ends so in simple terms when we run the test on the block I should see a different flow in the jurnals that have big ends hanging off them. In simple terms one oil gallery that has 1 jurnal & two big ends should have 3 times the flow.
Do we argree???

With out getting to complex the test has to be run with the crankshaft in other wise there may not be enough back pressure to get the correct flow to each oil point, or do we block off the other galleries then measure the flow each at a time.

I personlly don't think the how is clear yet, as you mentioned Harvey the main gallerie at the top may cause restriction so do we start there then work our measurment from that point.



Its all not clear in my head how we are going to get this data so it accurate and usable.

Tony

Two things mate, first the amount of oil that will flow through the engine, is controlled by the leakage, you can't push more oil through the engine than the bearing clearance or other leaks like the lifters will allow. Pushing the pressure up to get more, won't help.

Second, to test the flow, just block the original pump hole, and fit a tank filled with a light oil, pressurised by 65psi of air connected to the front gallery plug, to force the oil through all the engine. A container under the sump plug, to measure the amount that flows out, in a set time.

Set it up and let it flow till the oil is flowing out the drain plug. Stop the flow, wait 30 seconds, then put the container under the plug and turn the flow on again for X amount of time. Turn the oil off, wait 30 seconds and then measure the amount of oil that the container has.

I don't believe it will make much difference if the engine is running or not, the amount will still be a good average of the flow.

Harvey.

[Dessertrunner]

Harvey,
Thinner oil flows faster there for at a give preesure more oil will flow throught the sytem.

I am having issues with figuring out how to measure it at each jurnal.
Are you talking about measuring the flow in each Jurnal???? Or in the total system???
Tony

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Harvey,
Thinner oil flows faster there for at a give preesure more oil will flow throught the sytem.

I am having issues with figuring out how to measure it at each jurnal.
Are you talking about measuring the flow in each Journal???? Or in the total system???
Tony

The thiner oil will present the worst case situation, which is what we need to know.

I don't think it matters what the flow is at each journal, I don't think that they will be any difference in the flow, if the supply is adequate.

Harvey.

[Dessertrunner]

Harvey,
I am not sure I have the confidance to just go ahead with out checking the flow in each jurnal. I think its one of those things we need to be able to put to bed because we checked and are able to find a number for each bearing.
Need to think how, most likly start with a block with out the crank and bearing and work from there.
Tony

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Harvey,
I am not sure I have the confidance to just go ahead with out checking the flow in each jurnal. I think its one of those things we need to be able to put to bed because we checked and are able to find a number for each bearing.
Need to think how, most likly start with a block with out the crank and bearing and work from there.
Tony

Well if you think it is necessary. I don't believe there is any problem, from one journal to any other. The problem has been due to the aerated oil and the No.1 feed location, and that is only a problem if we have an aeration problem, your sump and pump will prevent that from happening.

Harvey.

[SVXRide]

Couple things to add (hope they're useful!)

1. I agree with Harvey's approach to measure the flow. I'd only add that I'd perform the test a couple of time more just from a statistical perspective.

2. Please, oh, please measure the clearances on the main and rod bearings before you perform the tests. With all of the "Stock clearances are fine, no you need to open them up" discussions to date, this is a perfect time to put some quantitative numbers into the mix. Combining this with "heavy vs light" weight oil trials would be great.

3. As far as the journals go, could you just put stoppers in the crank and tap into the oil galley at various points to measure the flow? Yes, I realize you'd need a test mule block to use


Bill

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by SVXRide

Couple things to add (hope they're useful!)

1. I agree with Harvey's approach to measure the flow. I'd only add that I'd perform the test a couple of time more just from a statistical perspective.

2. Please, oh, please measure the clearances on the main and rod bearings before you perform the tests. With all of the "Stock clearances are fine, no you need to open them up" discussions to date, this is a perfect time to put some quantitative numbers into the mix. Combining this with "heavy vs light" weight oil trials would be great.

3. As far as the journals go, could you just put stoppers in the crank and tap into the oil galley at various points to measure the flow? Yes, I realize you'd need a test mule block to use


Bill

As of now Bill, we have no idea of how much oil will flow through the engine. If the test was done as I suggested, we will have an idea of ballpark number.

The viscosity of the oil would be proportional to the test oil, we could extrapolate the effects of other weights.

I would then, like to block the feed to the lifters, so that only the crank and rods are measured, as this feed could be a source of pressure drop.


Harvey.

[Dessertrunner]

You Win Harvey,

before we do anything we will run the test your way to get a base line number. Bazza is sorting out the oil heater in his sump tanks as we do need it to be some sort of reaistic temp. I will see if I can rough up some thing to drive the pump electric motor. Not sure I want to screw with compressed air in a tank with oil.
Tony

[Dessertrunner]

New seal plate completed with the grafted sensor mount.
Bob I also took aa couple of images to show existing sump next to the pump bit rough but may answer your question,
Tony