SVX Owners, Unite!

[Aredubjay]

Yes, eddy had salient points and yours are also. We take a dim view of people taking off with funds also, that's why Bill suggested, and I concur, that we will insist that the treasurer be bonded.

I've also been a member of stuffed shirt, full of themselves, what are we doing with the newsletter "social climbers" and this AIN'T gonna be one of those, or I AIN'T gonna be involved. Having been to every large meet since I owned my car, actually helping to spur on the first one, believe me, I know what meets should be. They should be fun and open to all, and they should not be BUSINESS meetings. That should be taken care of outside meet venues.

As far as value, value is a "relative term." I've paid membership to clubs from which I get a windshield sticker (25.00 as a matter of fact) and nothing more. Just a window sticker. And I don't put stickers on my cars. So, I've wasted my money. But still, I give yearly -- the cause is just. I can gain different color stickers for different levels of "membership", but, it's still just a sticker.

We could toss this about, pro and con, forever. The thread was begun to gather concensus or non- concensus. Do we want to organize, or do we not -- that is the question. Perhaps it should be put in the form of a poll.

I, personally think it would be good to organize (I didn't feel this way when it was first brought up several months ago on the Yahoo board, but, now, I can see the value in it). It's fine to disagree -- that's why we're here. Let's have further discussion, but, we probably need to put a time limit on it, so we don't burn up too much bandwidth.

Nevertheless, once the discussion has ended, I think those who would be willing to work toward formal organization should withdraw to a private forum for further discussion, and, hopefully, emerge with an organizational structure and vehicle that everyone can "live" with.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamsvx
oops... I forgot one thing.

If the club goes ahead, you can eliminate ANY chance of this continuing to occur combined with bye-bye to logo'ed T-shirts, umbrella's, mugs, pyjama's keyrings or the like unless we get the permission of Subaru - who may chose not to grant it.

At the moment, our defence is that we are fans and there is no profit or money involved. Make it a club and we expose ourselves to litigation - plain and simple.

As such, the issue will be what exactly is the overall benefit of the move to a more formalised arrangement.

When we can agree on that, then the path to be taken will become evident.


Thought I might chime in for a moment......

While it is legaly possible that a formailized club "could" be held liable for copyright infringement, I have to say it is highly unlikely. Especially in the case of a car that is not even produced anymore.

If this were a problem for car companies (free advertising) I'd have to think that Honda or Toyota or Volkswagon would have already made a stink. I don't think that Honda is producing all the SiR stickers found on many rice cars.

Heck, check this out http://www.edecals.com is a business, that sells all sorts of decals of manufacturer names, in all sorts of styles, and not a hint of a copyright logo. And this is a business..... If it were 100% legal, I'm sure that all of the different designs, spacing and fonts used would have has to be approved by the manufacturer... I doubt it, and I don't see this company going out of business anytime soon (the other car club I'm a memeber of just ordered 3000 stickers that say Toyota Tacoma, and a custom design at that!).

Some of these guys in the Tacoma Club have had custom TRD (Toyota Racing Development) stickers made, the size of the entire tailgate, and not once have I heard of a problem stemming from copyright infringement. And we're talking a club with 100 members in NJ alone, and a few thousand nation wide!

Just my .02

Seth

ps... the reason I haven't mentioned the Tacoma Club as one to possibly contact or emulate, is the shear size and setup wouldn't come close to that of the SVX community. I must say, it is very structured, with a National President, regional and state presidents and vp's. It's also fairly strict, in it's fashion of setting up meets and attending runs.... A run must be approved by and attended by a State president, in order for it to be "club sanctioned". So, I don't think it's policies would work at all for the SVX network.

[svxter]

Eddycat

My mention of resumes was for this reason: If you're going to have people serving as officers in some sort of formal organization, I feel it is reasonable to have some statement of their background, experience, and perhaps their vision of what they would seek to accomplish as the holder of that office. This may not be of much importance for a local group that can interact with each other on a daily basis. It may not be of great importance for this group, at this time. But, if I may be allowed to indulge in a bit of fantasy, I would like to dream of any organization that we might create, as having a couple of thousand members at some point. Now how do you get some sense of who you might be putting in charge? All meet in a chat room every Friday night? I belong to several organizations that routinely send out a flyer with resumes of candidates for office, along with a ballot to vote for same. It just seems a reasonable way to get some handle on who you're voting for, that's all. Perhaps I should have been more explicit.

I'm quite curious as to what seems to have given you the notion that this forum would suddenly become a members-only sort of thing? I think it would be reasonable for a certain part of any membership dues to go to supporting this forum, if that were the will of the organization. We're depending upon the goodwill and personal pocket book of Chris, and a few others, at the moment. But that doesn't imply that it would suddenly become an exclusive facility. For one thing, that would be counter-productive, since this would be the best way any such club would have of attracting new members, for one thing.

Maybe, as has been suggested, there's a fundamental question to be resolved. Do we want an official, structured club at all? If so, what would it be like, and what would it do? Would it be a full-featured organization that would organize events, lobby manufacturers, etc.? Would it just be for the purposes of supporting this bulletin board? It was my understanding that we were working toward the former. But that may just be my delusion, so I'll shut up and see where the question comes to rest.

[Aredubjay]

<<If it be for force of numbers, Joe Blow Carbon Fibre hood land can be coerced into treating an order seriously by either a letterhead of an organisation or a person standing there waving money saying "50 orders here....what can you do before I go to the next place". Ditto when dealing with anyone else >>

Just as one more sidebar. The reason I brought up the carbon fiber issue is this: Several of our "Joe Blow" owners have waved their preverbial monies -- not only waved it, but paid it. Now, they're having difficulty receiving their goods. A call or letter from the head of an organization (as a precursor to a call from an attorney), might get the mill running a little quicker. It was just a thought.

[svxxx26]

<<Maybe, as has been suggested, there's a fundamental question to be resolved. Do we want an official, structured club at all? If so, what would it be like, and what would it do? Would it be a full-featured organization that would organize events, lobby manufacturers, etc.? Would it just be for the purposes of supporting this bulletin board? It was my understanding that we were working toward the former. But that may just be my delusion, so I'll shut up and see where the question comes to rest.>>

Well, those are good questions - and ones that must be answered before we go further, I suppose.
These forums are great as is: We can find out information we need, plan and hold meets around the country, get off-topic on other interesting issues, etc.
Thing is, as good as it is - it could be a LOT better with just a little more coordination that an organized club could provide. Meets could be scheduled so as not to conflict with another. Members wanting to hold a meet could get a little help with planning or locating goodies to hand out.
On the technical side, information could be pooled and made available to members, such as was done with the R&T Guide. Can you imagine being able to access a SVX Service Manual on a CD or online? True, such things CAN be done by individuals, but it usually costs somebody somewhere along the line. Perhaps we could have volunteer Subaru techs available to ask questions. BMWCCA has BMW techs listed that you can actually call on the phone during certain listed hours/days.
As I have mentioned earlier, as the years go by and Subaru support/parts dwindle, what then? I don't think that a message board alone will be enough. A dedicated liason with FHI could mean the difference between getting a actual Subaru part or trying to fabricate something. If that doesn't concern you now, just go visit the CF hood thread.
One more thing - there have been comments made that characterize this movement as being exclusionary in nature. I don't see that at all, in fact it's quite the opposite. This forum will be free of charge, as it is now. On the other hand, members that pay $25 or whatever should expect to get something for that money, and the ones that choose not to shouldn't.

[svxcess]

Since my taillight panel says it, as does my vanity plate, I was in search of the proper pronunciation of that 7 letter word. I can now rest easier as I have received the results of my many inquiries, including the Haydn Planetarium and the New York Public Library. The proper pronunciation of ALCYONE overwhelmingly seems to be el-SIGH uh-nee

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

[Aredubjay]

Just a quick question. I know some of the members here are also members of SCOA. Would any of you care to share with us how much you paid in dues, and what, thus far, you've received as a result of your membership?

[svxxx26]

<<Just a quick question. I know some of the members here are also members of SCOA. Would any of you care to share with us how much you paid in dues, and what, thus far, you've received as a result of your membership?>>

First year dues: $20.00, subsequent years are $15.00.

So far, I've got a inside decal and one newsletter.
Now I'm sure there are probably more club benefits . . . I think

[Aredubjay]

Originally posted by svxxx26
<<Just a quick question. I know some of the members here are also members of SCOA. Would any of you care to share with us how much you paid in dues, and what, thus far, you've received as a result of your membership?>>

First year dues: $20.00, subsequent years are $15.00.

So far, I've got a inside decal and one newsletter.
Now I'm sure there are probably more club benefits . . . I think

And you've been a member for, how long? Okay, I believe that, in the newsletter, there is a list of "SCOA Friendly" vendors and such, right? And a schedule of activities, etc. And, how many members? Just wondering. I guess I could contact Garry Grimes. He would probably give me the whole skinny.

[Jamsvx]

On the issue of copyright,

The reason I brought up the carbon fiber issue is this: Several of our "Joe Blow" owners have waved their preverbial monies -- not only waved it, but paid it. Now, they're having difficulty receiving their goods. A call or letter from the head of an organization (as a precursor to a call from an attorney), might get the mill running a little quicker. It was just a thought.

I used the example of the hoods merely as the first thing that came into my head that would have to be custom made for the SVX....I see your point and agree totally, however in the long run, I would imagine that the issue of maintaining the cars as the parts become scarcer will become more of a priority than 'optional accessories' be they hoods, lights, scoops or the like!! My point was that with regards coercive force, is the force increased to such a degree by a move to a more formalised organisation to, in combination with the other factors, an outweighing of the existing situation.

With regards copyright, one does not have to exercise one's rights, one can choose to - or not, as the case may be. I suppose as a counter to the examples you cited, takes Jurgeens (???spelling) experience with his SVX website in Germany and as for cars no longer made, McLaren shut down el pronto a site that appeared to be, with the amount of info it contained, F1 central (being the road car). *I can't remember the address...I will try and find it if people need proof! " It has to be considered that the possibility of action being taken by FHI or SOA will increase - whether they do it is up to them but who wants to run the risk of our sites being reduced to mere shells as we remove anything that could bring attorneys knocking at our door!our door.

I stuufed up with the 'bold' function and couldn't undo it -- sorry!

Jamsvx

quote: It has to be considered that the possibility of action being taken by FHI or SOA will increase - whether they do it is up to them but who wants to run the risk of our sites being reduced to mere shells as we remove anything that could bring attorneys knocking at our door!

I admit to not knowing all of the legalities of it, but, what if the club were to become an official organization, with a bonded treasurer and bank account? I would imagine the bank account would not carry a hefty balance. So, if FHI or SOA were to invest the time, resources, and money it would take to "shut it down", what would they get? So, we "turn it off", and maybe they clean out the organizations bank account.... no personal loss. I say we take our chances, and if it comes down to it, it's gonna hurt Subaru's public reputation to tkae down a club that supports one or more of their products.

We're (Club memebers and owners) are already there, as far as infringement goes.... look at the network logos, and the replica models John has had made.... and if it were that big of a deal, I think SOA or FHI would go after the business that actually created the model, or stickers, remeber, there is money to be had there, not here. If the stickers and models and whatever else were to become "club sanctioned" then, at least SOA would only have the club to go after, and no one would be held personaly responsible... it may afford some protection to our members that graciously devote time energey and $$$ into getting these projects off the ground. I guess I'd make the analogy to a business that incorporates, so that only the business is liable, and not the owner's personal finances or properties.

Sorry to ramble on, but I really enjoy this discussion, and hope to see what other people's reactions and thoughts are. This is such a positive idea, and hopefully we can weed out most of the negatives.....

Seth

??????

[Aredubjay]

Seth, I agree. This is a great discussion. I ask forgiveness for continueing to be devil's advocate, but, it seems to have done what I've wanted it to do: Keep the discussion active and keep it toward the top of the list. There WAS method to my "madness."

The whole copyright issue is going to be a crap shoot. For example, there is a little 30-40 seat restaurant in Philpot, Kentucky. Hardly noticeable, it sits on HWY 54 on the way to Whitesville. The only "crime" committed by its owner was to make it his namesake: McDonalds Restaurant. He had no ambitions of being a chain. He was a local hangout and never dreamt that he was doing anything wrong. But, yes, the big guys came knocking on his door with a cease and desist order. They agreed that if he added his first name to his sign, they would not pursue any legal recourse. So, he did. It is now "Norman McDonald's Restaurant." Now, let's hope the comedian of the same name doesn't get wind of it.


<<My point was that with regards coercive force, is the force increased to such a degree by a move to a more formalised organisation to, in combination with the other factors, an outweighing of the existing situation.>>

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying here James. Although I think "coercive force" is a bit strong (it may be right, but it's strong ) Perhaps you'll expound?

[svxistentialist]

Originally posted by tat2skullz
quote: It has to be considered that the possibility of action being taken by FHI or SOA will increase - whether they do it is up to them but who wants to run the risk of our sites being reduced to mere shells as we remove anything that could bring attorneys knocking at our door!

I admit to not knowing all of the legalities of it, but, what if the club were to become an official organization, with a bonded treasurer and bank account? I would imagine the bank account would not carry a hefty balance.

Sorry to ramble on, but I really enjoy this discussion, and hope to see what other people's reactions and thoughts are. This is such a positive idea, and hopefully we can weed out most of the negatives.....

Seth

Seth,
I agree with the thrust of what you are saying. Subaru spend millions on a rallying campaign to build and strengthen their brand image. Why would they spend a red cent trying to strongarm a small group of loyal supporters and fans and dumba$$ mechanics??

James is being the devil's advocate, fools rush in and all that, so it is wise to check out these issues and if possible ensure FHI or other parties understand that unwitting infringement is not for personal or corporate gain.

If the club and the treasurer are incorporated and bonded, and it is made clear to all in the club manifesto that it is a not-for-profit organisation, then corporate lawyers will see neither a threat nor a bonanza to be sued for.

Joe

[Jamsvx]

*image of a smilely face with horns!!!*

James is being the devil's advocate, fools rush in and all that, so it is wise to check out these issues and if possible ensure FHI or other parties understand that unwitting infringement is not for personal or corporate gain.

Very true. Forgive me if any thinks I am the eternal pessimist but in my line of work, it pays to think "worst case scenario" - it allows a more rapid and effective, not to mention preconsidered, response if the scenario eventuates!!!

On the issue of copyright, I agree that stickers and logos are being used left right and centre but it is more of a 'backyard' effort (from an outsiders perspective) than a "dedicated" enterprise. If such activities, and indeed, use of images, falls within the ambit of a dedicated endeavour, such as a national/global organisation, thence SOA and FHI may very well respond by treating such copyright infringements in a serious manner mirroring the very intentions that underlay the formation of the organisation in the beginning - ie, to have unity, coercive force of members etc etc....ie: up till now we can plead "we're only a bunch of fans who love a car that no one else does"...Move to the next level and our ability to claim that falls away: if one demand to be treated seriously in the eyes of others eg SOA, then expect to be treated in a reciprocally equal manner - a plus for transmissions and bearings, a no-no for just about every one of our PC's contents!!!

Jamsvx

Not tyring to throw a spanner in the works, just trying to work backwards to a solution!