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  #31  
Old 05-09-2008, 09:06 AM
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Mike621 Mike621 is offline
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I have the answer.

I own one with a spoiler and one without.



I don't like the look of the stock wing, and I do not race either of the cars so it does not matter to me whether or not there is a gain to be had. I prefer being able to see more out my rear window, imo. I might keep the one on the pearly, for simplicity's sake, but I would NEVER put a spoiler on my Claret.
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  #32  
Old 05-09-2008, 11:25 AM
svxpert svxpert is offline
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on the topic of spoilers / wings, does anyone have a stock SVX one for sale? thanks
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  #33  
Old 05-09-2008, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svxpert View Post
on the topic of spoilers / wings, does anyone have a stock SVX one for sale? thanks
I have a black spoiler for sale. Pics in my locker. PM me a reasonable offer
(it will also help to know where you are so I can figure out shipping)
-Bill
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  #34  
Old 05-09-2008, 01:55 PM
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This is real simple.

Aerodynamic principals are certainly factored into the designing of a wing. However, on a SVX there are other considerations. This simple, yet through composition is prepared to establish a general, but completely understandable explanation of the function of the SVX wing!

By providing this simple explanation, hopefully we can just close this discussion. I for one am consumed with excitement, anticipating seeing the next, but perhaps just as meaningful…new thread!

The Wing!

The ability of an airplane to fly is not accomplished by the angle of the wing and not just from flying along, “mushing” through the air.

The leading edge of the wing an airplane is designed to provide a greater distance for air to travel from the leading edge over the top of the wing to the trailing edge, compared to the distance the air has to travel from the same point, to the same point, on the bottom of the wing. The greater speed of the air over the wing top, compared to the speed of the air on the bottom creates a negative pressure, a suction if you will. Hence, lift… the greater the air speed… the greater the lift.

This difference in distance is so dynamic that we are able to design “big old airplanes” with “little bitty” wings. Lowering the landing flaps simply increases the difference in the distance from the top surface the leading edge to the trailing edge and magnifies the difference in the two pressures gaining the required lift with the lower landing speed.

This is the same principal used in the design of the carburetor that was used on prehistoric cars.

Just like the wing on an airplane, the SVX wing has a specific design for a specific purpose. .
On an airplane, the desired effect is lift. We don’t need lift! The SVX wing is designed with the same principal but reversed to acquire the opposite result.

Another consideration is the weight of the wing itself. No one has mentioned that aspect. I personally haven’t put mine on a scale, but the dang thing seems sort of heavy… However, I will be 78 next month and everything seems to be “sort of” heavy. .

One other thing to consider is the distance between the rear wheels and the distance from the mounting of the wing on the trunk compared to the location on the frame for the rear wheels.. I will bet none of you SVX types have ever considered that. Think about it… Leverage! Yes, we have leverage. Compounding the actual downward push of the actual weight of the object

Now see there… Didn’t I tell you? “this is real simple”

Hope this helps!
Keith
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  #35  
Old 05-09-2008, 02:10 PM
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With a drag coefficient of .29, Subaru's engineers had a passion for the shape of the SVX. I simply can't see them tacking on a purely ornamental "wing". It would defeat all their work. You can bet, that even though Guigario's initial sketches didn't have a wing, he had a significant input as to it's shape.

Remember, his initial sketches had pop-up headlights too.

Earl's experiences with all 3 setups speaks louder to me than anything else. That, and my own experience with my car, and it's 2" rearward wing. Having had several opportunities to run my car at well over the legal speed limit, I can say that my car is rock solid stable at those supernumerary speeds.
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  #36  
Old 05-09-2008, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwren View Post
Just like the wing on an airplane, the SVX wing has a specific design for a specific purpose. .
On an airplane, the desired effect is lift. We don’t need lift! The SVX wing is designed with the same principal but reversed to acquire the opposite result.
Keith
Near as I can tell without taking a hacksaw to mine, the cross-section of the SVX wing is symmetrical. There is no "reverse lift." Downforce is determined by angle of attack, and there's no angle whatsoever on an SVX wing.

You're right about the weight. The added weight of the wing does indeed add that much downforce, but as I suggested before, you'd get more weight on the rear wheels by topping-off the tank or tossing some gear into the trunk.

Check out a race on TV this weekend. Any race. You'll see that the trailing edge of the wing on any type of race car is higher than the leading edge. NASCAR's new "car of tomorrow" design has replaced the old, steeply raked blade spoiler with a smallish wing which has the trailing edge gently curving upward. On Indy-type open wheel cars, the angle of attack is more extreme, and there's a reason for that: The higher the trailing edge, the more downforce is applied at high speed.

dcb
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  #37  
Old 05-09-2008, 02:46 PM
dragoontwo dragoontwo is offline
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dcarrb, I was going to say something earlier, but needed to find a pic.



If you look at the image, a lot of the air coming over the body will not be parallel to the ground when attacking the spoiler. Hence creating some downforce. It may not be an ideal spoiler, but it *should* be functional.
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  #38  
Old 05-09-2008, 03:11 PM
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Downforce can be ahchieved at 0deg AOA even with a symmetrical profile. If you place even a flat board in the right place, it will push down on the car. In the case of the SVX, putting even a dead level spoiler into the descending airflow, will cause downforce, or more precisely, a reduction of lift.
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  #39  
Old 05-09-2008, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ownbot View Post
Come on, At 70 I find it hard to believe that there can really be a difference Its not a functional wing...and besides, I think the SVX looks terrible w/o a wing
The SVX spoiler (or technically, "Wing" since it is elevated above the trunk deck) is most definitely functional. I had been meaning to calculate the actual lift that the wing produces so I might go out an measure it now and take a look at what I come up with :P...

(an hour passes and I haven't submitted the post yet...)

Alright, well after getting most of the measurements that I can get I am left lacking one measurement... Lift Coefficient (that or I need to come up with the Aerofoil Type and the AOA)... I am going to write Subaru in Japan to see if I can get an answer for it... Once I get the Lift Coefficient then the calculation will be complete and we should have a good idea of how much "lift" our wing produces at about 70mph (just landed on 70mph because that's what I do down the highway most of the time...)...

~ Chris

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  #40  
Old 05-09-2008, 03:39 PM
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GreenMarine GreenMarine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyhorse View Post
Downforce can be ahchieved at 0deg AOA even with a symmetrical profile. If you place even a flat board in the right place, it will push down on the car. In the case of the SVX, putting even a dead level spoiler into the descending airflow, will cause downforce, or more precisely, a reduction of lift.
Not entirely true, but on a good track... The problem with that assumption is that the SVX wing isn't a "flat board"... It is actually an aerofoil... Therefor it will produce lift... So the things I am writing Subaru of Japan about are one in the same:

- Coefficient of Lift
- Aerofoil type (and there are thousands) and Angle of Attack

To give you an idea of how varied the results can be without the proper numbers, my friend and I were working out this problem and estimating the Lift Coefficient and coming out with numbers ranging as high as 2,000lbs...

~ Chris
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  #41  
Old 05-09-2008, 03:49 PM
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Courtesy of Road & Track's Guide to the New Subaru SVX:

"...winged version has much more aggressive character than standard rear deck." -p.22

"An optional spoiler is mounted above, beginning on each side at the decklid cut and sweeping up, back and around at a significant though harmonious incidence." -p.22

"...the rear deck [was] lowered somewhat for visibility..." -p.72

"Every SVX gets a subtle rear deck lip, and a larger, optional spoiler is also available." -p.72


I quoted the third one because it leans toward validating the idea that the spoiler offers its existence toward aesthetics. With as much talk as is done regarding respecting Giugiaro's original design, it's possible that the spoiler simulates a higher rear deck, which could be a concession for the alteration. That's your call.

I vote for its being available for appearance preference until I have some science to back up the potential for placebo.
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  #42  
Old 05-10-2008, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenMarineSVX View Post
Not entirely true, but on a good track... The problem with that assumption is that the SVX wing isn't a "flat board"... It is actually an aerofoil... Therefor it will produce lift... So the things I am writing Subaru of Japan about are one in the same:

- Coefficient of Lift
- Aerofoil type (and there are thousands) and Angle of Attack

To give you an idea of how varied the results can be without the proper numbers, my friend and I were working out this problem and estimating the Lift Coefficient and coming out with numbers ranging as high as 2,000lbs...

~ Chris

Chris, I made a couple assumptions, and simplifications there. I know what they say about assume-ing too

My point holds true in that regardless of the profile of the wing on the SVX, it's placement in the descending airflow will reduce lift significantly. This is regardless of it's ability to create negative lift (downforce from an airfoil). Once that is factored in, I'm certain that the OEM wing, spoiler, whatever, will make useable downforce at sublight velocities.

All the math aside, I'm SURE Gugario had a hand in the placement, and shape of the OEM wing. He tends to be a bit... umm... anal about his designs. Making SURE they STAY his designs.
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  #43  
Old 05-10-2008, 02:34 PM
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Just out of curiosity, I'm not really all that mechanically-adept of a person, and I was wondering how exactly you'd go about moving the spoiler back 2 inches? I searched for a thread that could answer me but none were found. Is it simple? or is there much more to it than I'm currently seeing?
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  #44  
Old 05-10-2008, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Gr8Dane View Post
Just out of curiosity, I'm not really all that mechanically-adept of a person, and I was wondering how exactly you'd go about moving the spoiler back 2 inches? I searched for a thread that could answer me but none were found. Is it simple? or is there much more to it than I'm currently seeing?
Looks like you just unbolt the 4 nuts holding the wing on, and drill 4 new holes in the trunk lid. and then bolt the wing back up. I was going to do this today, but I got a little lazy...
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  #45  
Old 05-10-2008, 06:11 PM
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Yeah i opened the trunk to take a look, it seems really simple, but I'm also nervous at the thought of drilling new holes in the trunklid
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