Mohammed Cartoon-what do you think?

[NapaBavarian]

On September 11 2001 a friend of mine whos father was a foreign dignitary asked me what I thought of the goings on, I looked at him and said that we have been going to other countries and playing policeman for years, the only thing that suprised me is that this didn't happen sooner. Why is it that in the USA we somehow believe that we can go to other countries and fight wars, killing tens of thousands of people and as long as we stay on our home turf we will be fine? Right or wrong, it really dosn't matter, don't kick a beehive if you are affraid to get stung.

As for the cartoons and pointing fingers at the Muslums, don't forget all the historical blood on the hands of Christianity...

[Weebitob]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

Ok guys, here where I step in and explain to you all what is the real problem with muslims.

The WHOLE worldwide problem started with the Israely/Palestinians conflict in the Middle East. Israely's are Jews and Palestinians are muslims. Muslims had nothing against USA or the World before they started aiding the Israely's in their War against the Palestinians. I am living in a country with 18 different religions, I am Christian myslef and I don't like Muslims more than you do (we were in a civil war with muslims), but people must have some pity in their hearts to see what is happening in Palestine.

Isrealy's are murdering Palestinians with high tech weapons, and the palestinians are defending themselves with stones! Put yourselves instead of of those palestinians... what do you think? each day an average of 10-15 kids are dying with bullets... those guys are patriots defending their country, does it seem right ot you? USA is aiding Israely's getting those high tech weapons and some are HUMANITARIANLY forbidden!!!

So in the beginning USA is the muslims' ennemy, and after the Iraqy war and the interfierence of all worldwide countries, Muslims will be launching more and more terrorists attacks against the whole world. Please understand that they consider the muslim in Indonesia as their brother, they have no problem bounding with him... they consider their ennemy as the one outside from their religion and not the one from a different country.

You may feel that it is becoming more ridiculous what they are making... but believe me this is the ULTIMATE INSULT for muslims. Let me explain: In their belief, muslims are not allowed to generate pictures of Muhammad as we do with our Jesus Christ. Denmark made a huge mistake with what they did, first as the pics of Muhammad and second as insulting him more by those bombs they added. The muslims were furious (don't be surprised but I envy their commitment to their religion, unlike us ) and Denmark will surely witness now terrorists attacks especially that it refused to apologise to the muslim world.

Because of these cartoons, the embassy was set on fire over here, 150 cars were either beaten up or set on fire, police and military vehicules were burned, 7 fire department vehicules are trashed, Christians in fear from those extremists muslims attacks (thank God war civil war wasn't started again, our condition is highly "Flammable"), the result? 10 million dollars worth of damage.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4686536.stm

I don't want to go into the issue with the Israel and Palestine considering my views are almost 180 or opposite of your's and is a bit more complicated than children throwing stones at tanks.

But Muslim fundimentalists have hated the US or the entire west for that matter allot longer than the current Israel's existence. Have you ever heard of the whole war the US had with the Barbari pirates and Tripolitan War? In fact a good portion of them or at least their leaders hold a resentment which has been around since the Crusades or when England's King Richard I's attempt to take Jerusalem. Some may ever dare say that the way Muslim extremists resentment or what some put soley on the Wahhabis is a whole lot like how the Vatican as well as England during the Crusades had pretty much a convert or suffer policy for any non-Christians.

Yes, it is grave to smear a profit but the fact most of the profits that the Christians and Jews hold dear the Muslims do too. With the exception of Abraham's son Jacob.

But some Muslim journalists and cartoonists have been generalizing and smearing other religions as well as nations for quite some time now. I guess you can say jounalists of any religion or nationality can be held capable and accountable for something like this. Another thing is that Denmark has already apologized for it but French, Belgian and some British papers have reprinted it, which is what is really fueling the fire. Some people think it is part of a larger controversy, to keep oil prices high considering the wife, Anders Eldrup, of the head of the Danish publisher responsible, Merete Eldrup, is the head of Danish Oil and Natural Gas, now that is something to think about.

Not all Americans or even Israelis are "baby killers" just as not all Muslim Arabs are. And I would laugh if any else calls the US media "evil, imperial or zionist scum" considering they refuse to show the cartoon.

[SilverSpear]

Look I am not trying to defend muslims, in fact I hate them but no more than I hate Jews. You might be an American Jew, I dunno, but I never lie and will give you my point of view. As you know all the Arabs agreed to boycott Israel, but later on Egypt and Jordan made signed a peace treaty with the latter. So there would be for sure exchanges between the countries, business, etc... you know what Israel did to Egypt? They started sending them radioactive material inside belts (the hook part), so that when egyptians wear them, it would affect their genitals, and in consequence their abilities to give bearth to healthy babies... this is one of the things... Israel is planning to invade all the meditarranean coast one day and is thinking ahead of removing all the obstacles, one of them is the advantage Egyptians have with their huge population... Isn't the meditarreanan David's promised land according to the old testament?

It may seem ridiculus to you, but believe it or not, it is true. There are hundreds of other facts... the belt thing is one of them.

The picture you posted in your thread, well I have to say that the Palestinians have the right to draw such pics. The jews only care about their land, the land that David promised to them. So they are kicking people out of their homes, demolishing them and building complexes for jews to settle in. What would be your feeling if someone comes now, kicks you out of your house by means of force, tear it down and builds himself a home instead? Come on, the Muslims didn't start this war, Israel did and USA stuck her nose because of some pressure from the Jews... Aren't they the ones controlling your economy over there? and I think the military?
What I cannot understand is why USA is sending the latest HIGH-TECH artilery to Israel, FOR FREE??? they have Nukes for God's sake! this is just not USA's policy, is it? When you see one 5 year old child shot to death, you will think the same way I am doing right now. Come on don't tell me that this 5 year old has a bomb strapped all over his waist?

And this link you gave also, come onnnnn you are talking about a thing from the early 1800's, that wasn't applicable in the 1900's, at least not until the USA started supporting Israel...

Look I say it again, I hate muslims more than you do, I am not defending them, I am just playing the role of a judge in this matter.

I think the jews would also be furious if the palestinians make a portrait of David and put a bomb on his head... don't you? I would make the same also if they portrait our Jesus with such a thing...

[Weebitob]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

Look I am not trying to defend muslims, in fact I hate them but no more than I hate Jews. You might be an American Jew, I dunno, but I never lie and will give you my point of view. As you know all the Arabs agreed to boycott Israel, but later on Egypt and Jordan made signed a peace treaty with the latter. So there would be for sure exchanges between the countries, business, etc... you know what Israel did to Egypt? They started sending them radioactive material inside belts (the hook part), so that when egyptians wear them, it would affect their genitals, and in consequence their abilities to give bearth to healthy babies... this is one of the things... Israel is planning to invade all the meditarranean coast one day and is thinking ahead of removing all the obstacles, one of them is the advantage Egyptians have with their huge population... Isn't the meditarreanan David's promised land according to the old testament?

I never knew about that, but you still can't say that every single Israeli agrees to that just because some generals or the Hagana commenced it. I wonder if operations like that are even carried out today? What you are doing is stating a generalization, which helps to get a point across quicker but fails to cover all the details. And I am aware that Israeli government has had its fare share of attrocities and bad dedes such as the USS Liberty (which they claim was the CIA's fault for relaying intelligence to Egypt, but is plausible considering the US government wanted to stay friendly with Egypt in a secretive way) as well as the genocide Aerial Sharon helped promote in Lebenon.

It may seem ridiculus to you, but believe it or not, it is true. There are hundreds of other facts... the belt thing is one of them.

As for Israeli being a Jewish only country, even though there government is slated to favor Jews more there are also Druze, Bedouin and Yemenite Arabs living freely there because they were forced to flee other Arab countries that sought to massacre them. And if you think Isreal is the only one with people soughting to destroy the Palestinians, don't forget the systematic massacre that occured in Jordan in the 1970s that resulted in over 200 Palestinians dead and many more despersed to the West bank.

I also don't hate all Muslims and I thought that was clarified in my last post. In fact I look upon Egypt, Jordan, Lebenon and the Arab Emrates as about the only other nations who's entire governing body is not completely off their rocker.

The picture you posted in your thread, well I have to say that the Palestinians have the right to draw such pics. The jews only care about their land, the land that David promised to them. So they are kicking people out of their homes, demolishing them and building complexes for jews to settle in. What would be your feeling if someone comes now, kicks you out of your house by means of force, tear it down and builds himself a home instead? Come on, the Muslims didn't start this war, Israel did and USA stuck her nose because of some pressure from the Jews... Aren't they the ones controlling your economy over there? and I think the military?
What I cannot understand is why USA is sending the latest HIGH-TECH artilery to Israel, FOR FREE??? they have Nukes for God's sake! this is just not USA's policy, is it? When you see one 5 year old child shot to death, you will think the same way I am doing right now. Come on don't tell me that this 5 year old has a bomb strapped all over his waist?

And this link you gave also, come onnnnn you are talking about a thing from the early 1800's, that wasn't applicable in the 1900's, at least not until the USA started supporting Israel...

Look I say it again, I hate muslims more than you do, I am not defending them, I am just playing the role of a judge in this matter.

I think the jews would also be furious if the palestinians make a portrait of David and put a bomb on his head... don't you? I would make the same also if they portrait our Jesus with such a thing...

Not all Israelis desire war, most want peace with Palestine. It is just that the currently cabinet is filled with war mongers. As for Israel having nukes, you can thank France for that not the US. And for Israel getting high tech weapons, the sole reason for that is Israel was pretty much the US's right hand man like how countries such as Vietnam and Cuba were with the Soviet Union and continue thanks to terrorism as well as current US foriegn relation altogether.

And as for Jewish settlers kicking Arab ones out of their homes, that hardly ever occured. You have to consider that Jews have migrated to Palestine since the 1800s and there has always been a tiny contingient there since even the Diaspora. My grandmother grew up in Palestine and her origonally Austrian parents in the 1920s-30s and worked on a farm owned by Muslims as well as dealing with them on a daily basis. The closest thing at the time to Jews "kick out" Muslims was when they legitemately purchased. You also have to consider a big part of Israel was swampland as well as the Negev and therefore undesirable for daily living. Things only started getting ugly once Jewish terrorist groups such as the Hagana fought against and further inclined the British to withdraw in 1948, which sparked the first Intifada with Arab nations calling for Muslims to flee Israel. They then shut their borders before many immigrated and called it a buffer zone. Maybe this is what I was "brainwashed" with this so perhaps you can enlighten me here, but from what I can tell as a nation Israel commited equal if not less evil then the other Arab nations.

I am stating about what happened before the creation of Israel, as for what happened after, with the exception of the 4 wars that occured with Israel against other Arab nations, as well as the Intefadas I don't know that much about what has occured in the Middle East in the 20th century and am very interested in what you posting.

You also can't forget a large part of the Jewish population of Israel is Arab and Persian, who's parents or grandparents flead from Arab countries who killed and drove them away because of the excuse that modern Israel was created. These are the ones who largely hate Muslims and want them dead. Just check out Arab artists such as Subliminal and Orphaned Land (website aside these are the most unbiased articles I can find in a Google search). As for anything that occured before the 20th not being applicable, then why were there some Muslims who sided with the Nazis against Britain as well as its allies which include the US. Even though colonialism played a large part, you can't say it was the only motivation.'

Also, our economy in the US is just as much controlled by Protestant or Anglicans as it is Jewish. As for the press, well the British publishing company Reuters which most of our newspapers and news channels rely on for international press was bought over by a Saudi Arabian prince so who do you think controls that.

And if anything cartoon was widely published depicting King David in a bad way, aside from what extemist orthodox Israel would do there would probably be no worldwide revolt. Some can call it lack of religious dedication while others may call it restraint, you decide. If it is one thing Jews are largely known for, it is being the most self loathing religion, have you ever seen the movie The Believer? Also I recall no ancient Israeli King from David to Solomon called for controlling the entire Middle East, just for Israel or the land of Canaan. So I guess you can say Jews or Israelis are like the rednecks of the Middle East with a NIMBY (Not in My Back Yard) attitude.


I will probably sound like Bill Clinton when saying this but I hope Israel and the currently Palestinian put aside their thoughts of war and agree to a peace treaty with Israel recognizing the current Palestine in return that they have a national policy to seek their destruction in return. It is alright to the rest of the Middle East to hate Israel and visa versa but not to kill each other. Of course with the US military occupying Iraq and with what Iran is saying as well as what the EU is calling for with wanting the destruction of Hamas, that complicates things.

[Electrophil]

Excellent reading in this thread. Well thought out explanations on both sides.

No comment on the matter. I just really enjoyed reading the thread.

[SilverSpear]

I am not stating that all Israeli's want war, only the war mongers and especially the Liqoud party (Ariel Sharon's party) which are controlling Israel right now. It is true that Israel has Druzes, Bedouin and even Christians.. but those hardly are considered a minority, most of them are Jews with terrifying beliefs. Population in Lebanon accounts for 3.8 million, of them 200,000 are from the Druzes which constitute the most country in the middle east to have that many Druzes... so what do you think their # is in Israel???

Weebitob you are always stating facts going from long time. Let me tell more about Jews. I have read books about them written by a Jewish author. The terrifying thing about them is that they still believe that their Messiah is coming as a strong leader, send by God himslef behind him a huge artilery and a great army, he will control the whole of David's promised land... Do you believe that God will send such a messiah to Earth with this army? ( ). Some Rabbies are getting used to the fact that such a thing will never occur and that the only Messiah was really Jesus Christ. The whole problem in the Middle East, and especially with the Jews/Muslims conflict was about that stupid thing...

One of those Rabbies I mentioned above (I am gonna stating now something as good as true, but I forgot the true details of it) got back to his senses after seeing what is happening in the World. Let's discuss this fact both Naturally and Humanitarianly.

Naturally, for the past 10 years the World witnessed Earthquakes, increasing numbers of Floods, the tsunami and many other natural disasters.
Humanitarianly, 9/11, war on Afghanistan, war on Iraq, the about to have happened war between India and Pakistan, terrorists attacks in UK, the increasing anger of Muslims on Europe and USA...

The World is deteriorating. This aspect is mentioned in the old testament of the Bible and that Rabby is refreshing people in Israel that if we continue with the conflict, the world as we know will come eventually to an end in a few years. He also started believing in Jesus as the one and only messiah who came to Earth and the only one who will ever come. And if he is about to come another time (we mention in our prayers that we are waiting for his second arrival...) he will come humbly and of course with no Army .

Do not get me wrong, this seems to you pretty much "Religious" because such a conversation about that conflict is based entirely on a religious basis, and no other.

And let me tell you something also about Jews and especially the extremists.. they don't give a damn about you or me, they are like the Nazis and they think that their race is the ultimate one, because they are from the descendant of Abraham and his legitimate wife which are blessed from God himslef. Whereas the Palestinians are from the descendant of Abraham and his wife's maid, so the Jews are superior than the Muslims and are the outmost superior race in the World. They only care about satisfying their needs. What do you think their attitude would be if the USA was not as powerful as it is. Let's assume that USA is in fact at the same level as Switzerland (no army, just internal police). You think they care about you?? No my friend, they are being "buddies" with you because you provide them with power which will be used some day to regain David's land.

Don't get me wrong, I also hate the extremists Muslims, they have a worse mentality than the Jews..

As for the homes thing, well that is happening in Israel, don;t you watch over the news how Jews come with their soldiers and tanks and demolish Paestinians houses and build their own? come on!!!. Maybe in the States you are not seeing what is actually happening in Palestine on TV. What do you think when you see a mother running down the street holding his baby with a bullet in his chest, or a small child hiding behind a small wall from an Israely tank, when that tank itself turns its bridge towards that wall (no more than 12 feet distance) and guns it down . I actually have seen it live on TV. The kid along with the wall just evaporates... consider that you have never seen this kid in your entire life, what would you feel after seeing such a thing in front of you???

You have had your share in the States with the black people/white people thing. Long time before you used to consider them as inferior to you... the same thing is happeneing in Palestine, why the Jews still have to consider that the Palestinians are inferior to them? because they are the Maid's children? WE ARE ALL CREATED IN GOD'S FIGURE, isn't it?

Do you also remember what the Israely Apache Heli. did in Quana (Lebanon) years ago? I will not mention it, it just gives me the creeps... because I get the chill each time I remember that picture in my head.

As for the countries you mentioned, in my opinion look only for countries still with Royal regime... they are still better off than the others. Those who claim a democratic regimes are never near it for ex: Syria and the former Iraq (the worst, they are pure dictatorships), Egypt (also dictatorship, let's remember how many years Husny Mubarak is now in power, you think the Egyptian people loves him? they loved the one who was before him, Anwar Sadat which is believed that he was killed by Mubarak himslef. He was his Vice), Lebanon (at the time of the Syrian occupation, everything was controlled by Syria with the USA blessing. Our current President is appointed by Syria, so we didn't have a democratic system, up until now. Still a lot of work to do)

As for the Intifada, that was the stupidist thing muslims did in the middle east. We had a president named Kamil Chamoun in Lebanon. He was and still the BEST president a country ever had. In six years time, he managed to build our country's infrastructure, political system, police, army... almost everything. (BTW his son, also a great man, Danny Chamoun was assasinated along with his family and kids in early 90's by Syrians). Lebanon is a multireligion country, at that time the Druze leader named Kamal Joumblat was also in control of things around here and was hugely loved by Druzes and Muslims (pls note that Druzes are a part of Islam, their religion is very complicated and needs a whole thread just to explain it). But the presidency was in the hands of the President only (Kamil Chamoun), he is Christian of course. The Druze leader, Kamal was his friend, they agreed on everything, so they were known as the Kamil and Kamal duo which peaked Lebanon to it's top. When Jamal Abdel Nasser appeared in Egypt (the one before Anwar el Sadat), he managed to unite all the Muslims in all the Middle East against Israel in what is called as the Intifada. Here the chains were broken between Kamil Chamoun who wanted to be friends with USA and Europe and Kamal Joumblatt who insisted on following Jamal Abdel Nasser. The result? Israel backed by the state of the art jets, attacking all Arabs, and especially their infrastructure... this is the story

I am not defending either religion, but what I can tell you that I know details about how Jews think, from that book I read, that can make you hate them as much as I hate them and maybe a lot more.. Sorry I am living in a country near them and I am always updating myself with their daily behavior.

[demonsvx]

I live in the "Bible Belt" and southern baptist is the "ruling" factor around here. The churches dictate to our local government what is "allowed and not allowed" and it irritates me to no end. Our local community could thrive if certain beliefs were put aside. This also applies to the Middle East whereas who thinks what is best for the area, although none of the countries involved US, EU, etc care who pays the price. Coexistence is very difficult with different religions, customs, and among other things race. The US has its "interest" in the area for one thing- OIL and doesnt care who it pisses off. I love my country but hate the empirialist-facist way it does things.

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by demonsvx

Coexistence is very difficult with different religions, customs, and among other things race.

Not entirely true. It is true that we had a civil war because of a religious belief, but nowadays we are coexisting with no religious conflict. Take those words from a guy living in a very small country with the outmost religions existing in the world. There are even Lebanese Jews over here.

The late Pope JP II stated in his visit to lebanon: " Lebanon is a message to the World." He meant that even though many religions exist, we can still coexist.

[demonsvx]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

Not entirely true. It is true that we had a civil war because of a religious belief, but nowadays we are coexisting with no religious conflict. Take those words from a guy living in a very small country with the outmost religions existing in the world. There are even Lebanese Jews over here.

The late Pope JP II stated in his visit to lebanon: " Lebanon is a message to the World." He meant that even though many religions exist, we can still coexist.

We also must realize that we do not own this world, a higher power does

[SilverSpear]

Originally Posted by demonsvx

We also must realize that we do not own this world, a higher power does

Who is that power? the Demon or God himslef ?

[n00b on demand]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

Not entirely true. It is true that we had a civil war because of a religious belief, but nowadays we are coexisting with no religious conflict. Take those words from a guy living in a very small country with the outmost religions existing in the world. There are even Lebanese Jews over here.

The late Pope JP II stated in his visit to lebanon: " Lebanon is a message to the World." He meant that even though many religions exist, we can still coexist.

Coexisting with different religous beliefs is entirley possible. In our town in India we have a mosque, a hindu temple, and an Indian Orthodox church on the same block and across from one another. We all live peacefully and there hasn't been a fight over it before. People just go about their business and dont start problems. I'm not going to go deep into this whole muslim thing. Alot of them get the wrong idea about their religion. The extremists feel the need to kill to become a martyr and they think its honorable or whatever. India and Pakistan have fought 3 wars in their history because of terrorism and the disputed Kashmir region. The violence in Kashmir wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for terrorists jumping the border into india and blowing up busses...or like the time they invaded our parliament building in New Delhi and tried to assassinate our prime minister. Hopefully they will learn their lesson and stop because India has one of the best armed forces in the world...so if anyone messes with them they will get teh karate

[demonsvx]

I think the problem with Israel is it feels entitled to jerusalem and the area in which all these people live is very small.

[Electrophil]

I think there is a point being missed throughout this thread. Religion is not the reason, religion is the excuse used.

Does anybody really believe that Israel was the "promised land", or was it the justification Moses used to attack the cities of Canaan? David followed right behind him in attacking every city they crossed in the area. "Israel" as it is now called, was taken by force in the first place from the Canaanites. If it was "promised", why did they have to "take" it?

It was just their justification to kill everyone. But I don't say that as a slam toward the Jews. Every religion in the world has continuously used their "belief system" as a justification for doing bad things to other people.

Worked the same way in the US when the early settlers started wiping out the Native Americans. God's will.... ha! God's will my rear. Did he have a cell phone with those guys? My gosh, A pillar of the Mormon religion is based on the Native Americans being turned red by God for their blasphemy.

Religion "justifies" terror. It doesn't really matter which religion. They all do the same thing. And every single time a world leader pops up and starts quoting scriptures from any spiritual writings, we all need to take notice... cause something bad is about to happen.

Here's the real fact. We aren't important. We are not in the center of something big. We are on some insignificant planet, circling some insignificant star, some 3 quarters of the way out from the middle of some totally unremarkable and insignificant galaxy.

The guys who have used religion as a justification for their "victories/defeats" were also not important, and no "God" was faxing them instructions. They wouldn't have been important enough to someone who created an entire universe. But it did give their particular group a way of dealing with what they were doing.

Uhhh... That's why every time God spoke to these guys, they always seemed to be up a mountain somewhere alone with no witnesses.

Sorry..... Another point of view.

[Weebitob]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

I am not stating that all Israeli's want war, only the war mongers and especially the Liqoud party (Ariel Sharon's party) which are controlling Israel right now. It is true that Israel has Druzes, Bedouin and even Christians.. but those hardly are considered a minority, most of them are Jews with terrifying beliefs. Population in Lebanon accounts for 3.8 million, of them 200,000 are from the Druzes which constitute the most country in the middle east to have that many Druzes... so what do you think their # is in Israel???

The Liquoud party is what Aerial Sharon use to be a part of, he now has formed a new party called Kadema. Also, it is sort of funny to here Liquoud members touting that they are war veterans since technically almost every Israeli no matter what political affiliation or even religion at times has served in the military at one point.

It is probably not as many Druzes in Israel as in Lebanon, the last survey in 1981 showed that they were 72,000. That population has probably grown since then. I would also like to know who you are reffering to when it comes to Jews with "terrifying beliefs." If you mean some of the orthodox extremists then they would probably seem quite terrifying to you, in fact they are terifying to anyone they see on the road on Fridays, they're known to hurl stones at cars driving during the Sabath in Jersulem at times.

Weebitob you are always stating facts going from long time. Let me tell more about Jews. I have read books about them written by a Jewish author. The terrifying thing about them is that they still believe that their Messiah is coming as a strong leader, send by God himslef behind him a huge artilery and a great army, he will control the whole of David's promised land... Do you believe that God will send such a messiah to Earth with this army? ( ). Some Rabbies are getting used to the fact that such a thing will never occur and that the only Messiah was really Jesus Christ. The whole problem in the Middle East, and especially with the Jews/Muslims conflict was about that stupid thing...

One of those Rabbies I mentioned above (I am gonna stating now something as good as true, but I forgot the true details of it) got back to his senses after seeing what is happening in the World. Let's discuss this fact both Naturally and Humanitarianly.

Naturally, for the past 10 years the World witnessed Earthquakes, increasing numbers of Floods, the tsunami and many other natural disasters.
Humanitarianly, 9/11, war on Afghanistan, war on Iraq, the about to have happened war between India and Pakistan, terrorists attacks in UK, the increasing anger of Muslims on Europe and USA...

The World is deteriorating. This aspect is mentioned in the old testament of the Bible and that Rabby is refreshing people in Israel that if we continue with the conflict, the world as we know will come eventually to an end in a few years. He also started believing in Jesus as the one and only messiah who came to Earth and the only one who will ever come. And if he is about to come another time (we mention in our prayers that we are waiting for his second arrival...) he will come humbly and of course with no Army .

Do not get me wrong, this seems to you pretty much "Religious" because such a conversation about that conflict is based entirely on a religious basis, and no other.

And let me tell you something also about Jews and especially the extremists.. they don't give a damn about you or me, they are like the Nazis and they think that their race is the ultimate one, because they are from the descendant of Abraham and his legitimate wife which are blessed from God himslef. Whereas the Palestinians are from the descendant of Abraham and his wife's maid, so the Jews are superior than the Muslims and are the outmost superior race in the World. They only care about satisfying their needs. What do you think their attitude would be if the USA was not as powerful as it is. Let's assume that USA is in fact at the same level as Switzerland (no army, just internal police). You think they care about you?? No my friend, they are being "buddies" with you because you provide them with power which will be used some day to regain David's land.

Don't get me wrong, I also hate the extremists Muslims, they have a worse mentality than the Jews..

As for the homes thing, well that is happening in Israel, don;t you watch over the news how Jews come with their soldiers and tanks and demolish Paestinians houses and build their own? come on!!!. Maybe in the States you are not seeing what is actually happening in Palestine on TV. What do you think when you see a mother running down the street holding his baby with a bullet in his chest, or a small child hiding behind a small wall from an Israely tank, when that tank itself turns its bridge towards that wall (no more than 12 feet distance) and guns it down . I actually have seen it live on TV. The kid along with the wall just evaporates... consider that you have never seen this kid in your entire life, what would you feel after seeing such a thing in front of you???

You have had your share in the States with the black people/white people thing. Long time before you used to consider them as inferior to you... the same thing is happeneing in Palestine, why the Jews still have to consider that the Palestinians are inferior to them? because they are the Maid's children? WE ARE ALL CREATED IN GOD'S FIGURE, isn't it?

Do you also remember what the Israely Apache Heli. did in Quana (Lebanon) years ago? I will not mention it, it just gives me the creeps... because I get the chill each time I remember that picture in my head.

As for the countries you mentioned, in my opinion look only for countries still with Royal regime... they are still better off than the others. Those who claim a democratic regimes are never near it for ex: Syria and the former Iraq (the worst, they are pure dictatorships), Egypt (also dictatorship, let's remember how many years Husny Mubarak is now in power, you think the Egyptian people loves him? they loved the one who was before him, Anwar Sadat which is believed that he was killed by Mubarak himslef. He was his Vice), Lebanon (at the time of the Syrian occupation, everything was controlled by Syria with the USA blessing. Our current President is appointed by Syria, so we didn't have a democratic system, up until now. Still a lot of work to do)

As for the Intifada, that was the stupidist thing muslims did in the middle east. We had a president named Kamil Chamoun in Lebanon. He was and still the BEST president a country ever had. In six years time, he managed to build our country's infrastructure, political system, police, army... almost everything. (BTW his son, also a great man, Danny Chamoun was assasinated along with his family and kids in early 90's by Syrians). Lebanon is a multireligion country, at that time the Druze leader named Kamal Joumblat was also in control of things around here and was hugely loved by Druzes and Muslims (pls note that Druzes are a part of Islam, their religion is very complicated and needs a whole thread just to explain it). But the presidency was in the hands of the President only (Kamil Chamoun), he is Christian of course. The Druze leader, Kamal was his friend, they agreed on everything, so they were known as the Kamil and Kamal duo which peaked Lebanon to it's top. When Jamal Abdel Nasser appeared in Egypt (the one before Anwar el Sadat), he managed to unite all the Muslims in all the Middle East against Israel in what is called as the Intifada. Here the chains were broken between Kamil Chamoun who wanted to be friends with USA and Europe and Kamal Joumblatt who insisted on following Jamal Abdel Nasser. The result? Israel backed by the state of the art jets, attacking all Arabs, and especially their infrastructure... this is the story

I am not defending either religion, but what I can tell you that I know details about how Jews think, from that book I read, that can make you hate them as much as I hate them and maybe a lot more.. Sorry I am living in a country near them and I am always updating myself with their daily behavior.

Uhhh not really, in fact some Jews look at the next Messiah as an age of peace rather than a person that would bring it. Also the Jews are not the only ones awaiting a Messiah, even some Christians and Muslims are into it. As for that Rabbi who "snapped to his senses" some would be consider him a Jew for Jesus. For the prophecies he told, you have to consider there were those who predicted the end of the world while the Holy Roman Empire was falling into ruin and during the Crusades, this is not the only time ever the world has went into chaos. So even though it is good to remain vigalent, you don't have take this forcast with every grain of salt just yet. Also, you have to remember there are extremists in every religion and nationality, you seemed to state that so clearly with Muslims yet blured it with Jews. Sure, there are indeed those Jews that when they think "chosen people" they think total superiority, but there are others that also think of themselves as guilding other people whether through their own judgement or the hardships as total people went though. It is like the saying, for every two Jews there are three opinions.

As for Israel just using the US as an arms seller, my grandfather told me a great saying that "nations do not have friends, they only have interests." Which means that the government of one nation is not going to diplomatically extend their hand to another unless they that other gives offers them something in return and the nation that is excepting it is usually seeking some sort of benifit from the other. The US is not the only one who has ever supplied arms to Israel there was also France and Britain who supplied weapons to Israel in the hope that they would have a "dark horse" so tp speak in the Middle East to prevent the recently independent Arab nations from getting too strong, this became prevelant by the Suez Canal War. After seeing that most of the Middle Eastern nations used Russian weapons the US started supplying weapons to Israel as a test bed to see how their technology fared against th Soviet's without going to war themselves. Of course Israel gladly accepted all of these offers because the Arab nations were at war with them ever since they declared independence in 1948.

And as far as I can tell most Israelis, even the extremist ones feel like they have already accomplished their goal in aquiring the holy land (with the exception of those that want to see the Gaza strip and West Bank in Israeli hands). They just see an act of war as the only way to protect that from what they see as invaders.

It is indeed sad to hear what happened in Lebanon and Israel's invasion of it during the late 1970s through early 80s in an attempt to expel Syrian troops and the PLO made things even worse. In fact most Israelis look at that war as their Vietnam and feel they didn't need to be there. And from what I recall with the exception of Lebanon where the IDF pretty much leveled chunks of everything, in the other wars Israeli jets only attacked enemy air fields and tanks.

As for Israeli troops demolishing Palestinian houses, they have pretty much laid off that for almost two years now in hopes of peace and the only time they ever did that was when they suspected the people living in there had weapons or were buidling bombs. With the exception of profiling amongst individuals the IDF as a whole behaves about as professionally as the US army. Even though some may dispute what the US is doing in Iraq they are still acting under regulation and not going around like total shock troops.

And for current events I don't think Lebenon has to worry about strikes from Israel, as their targets right now are situated way south and northeast of you in other words the Gaza and perhaps Iran. However, if they do also stage an assault on the West Bank there maybe Hamas who would want to flee to your country, but then I hope it doesn't become a repeat of what happened in the 1980s.

As for how ancient Israel and the Jews originated even though the religion started with Abraham, their nation started with King Saul who started out who united all the tribes of Judea against the Canaanites who also inhabited in the area but they didn't conquer all of Canaan until David. Remember that the tribes which united in the north to who called themselves the Israelites and were Jews as well were conquered by the Hittites and were dispersed. You see, prior to him the Israelites or tribes of Judea in the south were separate tribes that roamed Canaan and were ultimately a minority. So yes, Jews originated as conquerors but an interest fact you cannot miss is the one that the Israelites only desired that area of land and nothing more. What is to be said about Muhammed, one relate him to Alexander as a conqueror which would ascorbate one aspect of him while deminishing another. I could even call Jesus a great polititian, I bet that would anger many. I wonder what could be said about Buddism?

[NapaBavarian]

Electrophil- I'm with ya on that I spent significant time in 3 different major sects of Christianiaty and understood from a very young age, 3rd grade to be exact, what you just said. It struck me as strange, for instance, that the teachers in one school spoke ill of the Jews even though their lord and savior was a Jew (although I would believe that he was Buddahist) and the constant use of the phrase "fear of God" was reported to to be the old way of saying respect... Riiiiiiiight, it ment that the people were scared! Worship me or you will go to hell!

I got sick of the teaching of missionary, AKA going to other lands forcing other people to abide by your beliefs and "saving" them, the pain and blood shed horified me, and all in the name of God! I stoped in on a Christian radio station last week and listened to a tirade on Muslums in america and how they should all be thrown out of this country... Would that make God proud? To hate his children who follow many of the same beliefs, but under another name? Would it make God proud that millions of his children have been murdered in his name? Just a couple of hundred years ago I could have bought a Negro, this was not a man, but a piece of property, in fact the bible belt was the strongest hold of slavery.

I don't believe that the majority of religious people are like this, but many are, and it seems to have become part of the institution, like any animal the institutions of religion will do whatever they can to further themselves...