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  #1  
Old 05-28-2012, 11:00 PM
Pnx Jay Pnx Jay is offline
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Rear end swap experts needed!

I recently rejoined the SVX community with a fairly trashed 1995 Green LS. I have fixed a lot of little quirks and I am stumped with the rear axles.
To begin with, I do not have any history on the car! The kid I got it from said the previous owner 'swapped out racing gears'. The only thing I know is the case decal on the transmission (TZ102ZSAAA-C3) comes to 4.11 gears speced from a 1990s Legacy Brighton and the rear diff is open (non-LSD). When I bought the car the rear axles were not fully seating into the rear end causing them to flop around and destroy the axle seals and knick the teeth of the slines on the axle stub. They weren't completely out, just an inch or so so they don't engage in the diff. This week end I tore it apart and was happy to see the splines inside the rear end look fine and I cleaned up the axle splines with a small triangle file. everything went back together OK and the axles fully inserted like they should. The ring clip seemed to be holding them in OK.
Here's the problem and the question: On my first test drive the rear axles popped right back out and began flopping around again. I have a feeling the axles may be too short. What axles are required for a swap like this? I didn't get any extra parts with the car, so I don't know what came out. Does anyone have a measurement I can go from? Is it possible to get axles from a non-SVX Subaru that will work? The local U-Pull-It yard is full of Legacys, Outbacks, and Imprezas. I am not against replacing rear diff, axles or whatever if I can get it used. The more I work on this car, the more I know it isn't worth pouring money into on new parts, its had a rough life. It'll be a great intern until I find THE ONE.

Thank you for your time.

Jay
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  #2  
Old 05-29-2012, 05:10 AM
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Hocrest Hocrest is offline
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Re: Rear end swap experts needed!

Is one axle stub longer than the other? Do the stubs have the small split ring in a groove near the end of the stub??
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:59 AM
Tapani Tapani is offline
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Re: Rear end swap experts needed!

Look thru the differential - along the axle holes. Are there "buttons" between the side gears? The "button" is a sort of large and thick washer with a threaded hole in the center.

If the diff is from an older car the rear inner joints in the axles are "female" and then there are (similar to the front) stub shafts which are attached to the diff with long bolts rather than C-clips like in the front.

I have one of these and checked - no grooves for C-clips in the side gears.... see photo - also the button is visible. The other attached photo shows the stub shaft and the mounting bolt.

I hope I made some sense....

Tapani

PS the 4.11 geared ACT tranny is from a 2.2 N/A Legacy..... it has fewer plates in the clutches and a higher stall converter - not really ideal for the SVX, but probably okay with a sensible right foot....
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 29052012463.jpg (623.8 KB, 131 views)
File Type: jpg 29052012460.jpg (648.5 KB, 121 views)

Last edited by Tapani; 05-29-2012 at 12:32 PM.
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  #4  
Old 05-29-2012, 07:40 PM
Pnx Jay Pnx Jay is offline
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Re: Rear end swap experts needed!

Yes, both axles have the split ring in the groove on the end. No they are exactly the same length.
I actually removed the rear diff today to get a good look at everything. Unfortunately I think I will need a different diff. The splines are OK, but the smooth area of the side gears outboard of the splines is worn significantly. Apparently when the axles pop out that couple inches it allows the splines of the axles to ride on the smooth bore part of the side gear, machining it away. I wouldn't have thought the side gears were that soft, but they must be.
I also strangely discovered the grove in the splined part of the side gear already had a split ring in it on both sides. Did these stick in the side gears from a previous set of axles? The axles look fully intact with no sign of wear. I pulled the cover and it is definitely a 4.11 open diff.
I'll try to post a pic of the axles to show you what I have.
I found a pic on the internet, both of my axles look like the one on the right.
I guess I am going to get a junkyard diff this week. I am still a little unsure if I have the right axles or not. I guess I will carefully inspect the axles stubs on the donor car to make sure they look the same.


Tapani: My elderly mother will be happy that I got help from 'Suomi'. I grew up eating Juusota and Nissua. My mother is 100% Finn (Maiden name Paananen). I was raised in the UP of Michigan and went to school with about 70% Finns.
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File Type: jpg Subby axles.JPG (332.1 KB, 131 views)
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  #5  
Old 05-29-2012, 08:16 PM
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Re: Rear end swap experts needed!

For a 4.11, look for an AT legacy with a 2.2 engine. Most 2.5 AT's will have 4.44.

MT's will have either a 3.9 or 4.11.
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  #6  
Old 05-29-2012, 08:45 PM
Tapani Tapani is offline
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Re: Rear end swap experts needed!

You need to pull the extra C-clips out and install new ones (or good ones) on the axles.

-edit: A clarification: The grooves must be chamfered either on the axles or in the side gears. You must install the C-clips in the grooves which are NOT chamfered.

The "smooth area" you refer to is the bearing surface on the carrier itself - not the side gears. When the axles rotate at differents speeds there is a speed difference between the carrier and the axle - that's when this surface acts as a bearing. It also supports the axle.

Depending how bad the suface is you might be able to get a way with just fixing the C-clips - if you want to keep the costs down to a minimum.

Kind regards

Tapani

PS Say hi to your mom from the old country

Last edited by Tapani; 05-30-2012 at 12:18 AM.
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  #7  
Old 06-02-2012, 12:12 AM
Pnx Jay Pnx Jay is offline
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Re: Rear end swap experts needed!

Got a diff from a 1996 Legacy L 2.2 today. It is a 4.11. I am getting a little confused on the retaining clips. On the rear diff I pulled, the clips stayed in the side gear groves, not on the grove in the axle. The same thing with the burned up diff in my car. The axle stubs I have are identical to the ones on the junkyard car, but the axles I have have clips on them. Should I pull the clips off the axles and try them or try to get the clips out of the side gear groves?

I worked on Subarus exclusively for a number of years at various dealers in Phoenix, but I pulled 100 front axles for every one rear axle. I truthfully never paid any attention since I was just slapping a boot on them and reinstalling. The average home shade tree mechanic does a lot of things that are just never seen at dealers. In 5 or 6 years I saw one SVX and it went to another tech. Oh well.

Thanks again!
Jay
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1992 Pearl LS-L, totaled, but
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1997 Outback, daily driver

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  #8  
Old 06-02-2012, 06:10 AM
Tapani Tapani is offline
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Re: Rear end swap experts needed!

For a diff which has the clips inside the side gears (sharp edged grooves) you need axles with chamfered grooves. These will force the c-clips to expand and slide onto the axle splines when you smack the axle out and the c-clips stay in the gears.

If you use axles with sharp edged grooves with a diff with sharp edged (grooves) gears you may not be able to get the axle out w/o breaking c-clip.

If you use the diff you mentioned take the clips off the axles and chamfer the groove edges. Before you do this confirm (measure) that the grooves are in the exact same axial position both on the axles and the diff side gears to that they will engage. There are at least two different set ups around.

The stock SVX visco diff has the clip on the axle on LH side and the clip stays in the diff on the RH side . See my axle related photo in the thread below

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/show...highlight=axle

Tapani
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  #9  
Old 06-02-2012, 09:24 PM
Pnx Jay Pnx Jay is offline
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Re: Rear end swap experts needed!

Mr. Tapani, you are gaining my respect as the Finnish R160 God! I misstated that the two axle stubs were identical. Whoever built up my car obviously had the wrong axle stubs for the rear end that was installed and also wrong for my new junkyard rear diff. They are close, but different as you described. I will posted a photo to show the difference, since I haven't found a photo of the two side by side.
The axle stub on the left (green) is the type mentioned that the clip stays on the axle. The one on the right (black) is the type were the clip stays in the side gear. The joint is bigger on the green one. The splined area is slightly longer on the black one. The total length of the housing and stub is slightly longer on the green one. As you mentioned there is a steep taper on the nose of the black one so it slides into the internal clip.

Hopefully my last question is: Can I order axles for a Legacy and get the right length or am I going to have to make a Frankenstein set of axles? I get reman axles for less than $50 from our supplier and it would save a trip to the junkyard.

Thanks!!!!!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2 axle stubs.jpg (539.1 KB, 114 views)
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1995 Green LS

1992 Pearl LS-L, totaled, but
100% mechanically intact

1997 Outback, daily driver

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  #10  
Old 06-02-2012, 10:33 PM
Tapani Tapani is offline
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Re: Rear end swap experts needed!

:-)

I think the black one is the correct one for your diff. The green one is a stock SVX LH inner joint - probably not compatible with your diff.

Pls see this thread:

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/show...+compatibility

Pls note, that the axle bars have different splines on different models - so not all joints (inner/outer) and bars are interchangeable. Also, I never got a confirmation which outer joints fit the SVX hubs.

It would be nice to compile a table on the differences and the compatibility.

Chuckls - did you ever get around to swap your?

Kind regards,

Tapani
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  #11  
Old 06-03-2012, 03:00 PM
Pnx Jay Pnx Jay is offline
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Re: Rear end swap experts needed!

I have concluded after much blood sweat and tears that my car has two LH rear axles and they will not work for the non LSD differential. I have decided to steal the parts out of my wrecked 92 and do the full LSD swap. I didn't want to make the 92 non-drivable, but I want to drive my 95! Sadly, I had a 4.11 and a 4.44 factory LSD differential until last year I got from a Subaru rep many years ago out of late model turbo cars. I sold one and gave the other away!

Jay
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1995 Green LS

1992 Pearl LS-L, totaled, but
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1997 Outback, daily driver

Former Subaru MasterTech
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  #12  
Old 06-03-2012, 08:56 PM
Tapani Tapani is offline
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Re: Rear end swap experts needed!

Ok,

You may have to gring some material off the 4.11 open casing to be able to fit the VLSD. Not a problem, but be prepared for that.

Being a Subaru Master Tech you know to use matching side bearings (if you do not replace them), i.e. the races and the rolling elements must be pairs.

Also, you will have enough adjusting plates to get the preload and both the tooth pattern and the back lash correct.

Enjoy ,

Tapani

edit: PS I checked the preload w/o the ring gear and the side seals.

Last edited by Tapani; 06-03-2012 at 09:07 PM.
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  #13  
Old 06-04-2012, 08:36 PM
Pnx Jay Pnx Jay is offline
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Re: Rear end swap experts needed!

Working at a dealer the only work I did on the rear diffs was at Subaru training school in Ontario, California. They have you take apart a lot of stuff at school that you just never do at an actual shop just so you know how everthing works. I have replaced at least 2 rear diffs at the dealer, but it was as a whole unit. Like I said, shade tree mechanics get into a lot more than you see at a dealer most of the time. Dealers usually deal with either cars under warranty or very new cars. Only us shade tree techs rip into 15 to 20 year old cars! Should see me slip a set of headgasket into a single cam (2000+) 2.5! After 100 sets or so I got em down to about 2 hours if my back could hold out! Dual cam was about 4 hours. Ahhhh, the good old days!

Jay
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