Phase 2: Looking for 380 N/A whp.

[cdigerlando]

Good luck with your project. A couple of us are running Tec 2 EMS. I could even give you a program to start from for that, and show you what I did for the crank trigger.

Have you ever considered using titanium valves? The big drawback is they can penetrate a piston. Not a problem for our motor. Also do you use titanium retainers? I know they are made for the WRX.

[LetItSnow]

Bob, what interests me the most is what can be done that could be considered a "civilized" mod. I'd love to have more horses, but I'd like them to come without buckets of noise or driveability issues. Come to think of it, I'm not much for doing internals, I'd rather not pull the heads off, and following all that, I might be wasting time with a pro tune.

Looks like my 1v5 is gonna have to do!

Good luck with the monster motors!

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by cdigerlando

Have you ever considered using titanium valves? The big drawback is they can penetrate a piston. Not a problem for our motor. Also do you use titanium retainers? I know they are made for the WRX.

I won't be using titanium valves. I think the dollar-per-hp ratio is pretty darn high for that upgrade! Stainless valves, with titanium retainers for sure.

Bob, what interests me the most is what can be done that could be considered a "civilized" mod. I'd love to have more horses, but I'd like them to come without buckets of noise or driveability issues. Come to think of it, I'm not much for doing internals, I'd rather not pull the heads off, and following all that, I might be wasting time with a pro tune.

I am interested in what can be done for cams while retaining hydraulic buckets as well, and without jeopardizing streetability or investing thousands into a shortblock assembly. I'm not interested in it from a business point of view (selling products or services)... but from an engineering point of view I enjoy projects such as this. In other words I'll do the homework and if someone else wants to take the ball and run with it, no problem there!

To all others who've commented, thanks for the enthusiastic replies. I hope I can generate the results we are looking for and not disappoint.

[NikFu S.]

It has been reported the ej22s (the engine which the eg33 is loosely based) had some problems when bored to 2.5 for the earlier Legacy 2.5Gt models.

/subscribe

[Schralper]

Are you planning on running a vac pump?
That should help crankcase psi and ring seal.
To bad you can't convert to non hyd lifters cuz I think that's gonna be the limiting fact on your HP and driveability.
Beauty looking headers btw!

[TomsSVX]

Originally Posted by Schralper

Are you planning on running a vac pump?
That should help crankcase psi and ring seal.
To bad you can't convert to non hyd lifters cuz I think that's gonna be the limiting fact on your HP and driveability.
Beauty looking headers btw!

Bucket & Shim = Non hydroulic lifters

Tom

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

It has been reported the ej22s (the engine which the eg33 is loosely based) had some problems when bored to 2.5 for the earlier Legacy 2.5Gt models.

/subscribe

This is the kind of info I find helpful. So standard bore for the EG33 is 96.9 mm, and the EJ25 is 99.5 mm, correct?

I was figuring on 98 mm for a final bore dimension, which on it's own creates a displacement of 3394 cc's. Ideally, I'd like to see a 78 mm stroke, but I can't relay this feasibility until I can inspect a stock piston's compression height to see if there's 1.5 mm of extra space available in order to move the pin height upwards. If so, this would yield 3530 cc's. Bore sleeves and a bit more stroke (98.5 x 78.81) would give 3603 cc's, which I'd call the upper 'practical' limit.

Any more insight?

[RallyBob]

On another note, I just got off the phone with Jack, and he may just bypass the original plans to add plenum volume to his stock EG33 intake manifold.

I showed him the info sent to me by the owner of Extrudabody about the taper-bore Porsche 911 throttle bodies, and he is pretty much fixated on them now! He may end up ordering them this week, if so we'll see the results of 'Phase 1.5' sooner than later.

I have to admit I'm a bit bummed out because I wanted to see the results of enlarging the standard intake's plenum volume on his engine prior to all-out ITB's.

[nextse7en]

Thank you for providing this information to us, you are an asset to the site.

There are currently two camps in the as far as engine management around here. There is a group currently attempting to "crack" the secrets of the stock (OBD1 only at this point) ECU, so that eventually we might be able to simply write to it whenever we modify our cars. Another group has given up entirely on the stock ECU and are now looking into various aftermarket alternatives.

The stock ECU as it sits appears to be a very large bottleneck to HP, I belive (and I am not alone) that simply running a well tuned aftermarket ECU would yeild another 30HP at the crank. This in part due to the fact that the stock ECU appears to yank timing at some very wonky times.

That said, I am curious what you think of your autronic unit, specifically...

1. What version are you using.
2. How difficult was the wiring/tuning process.
3. What was your cost, at the end of the day, for the autronic unit and associated installation/tuning.


Thanks in advance!

-Patrick

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by nextse7en

That said, I am curious what you think of your autronic unit, specifically...

1. What version are you using.
2. How difficult was the wiring/tuning process.
3. What was your cost, at the end of the day, for the autronic unit and associated installation/tuning.

Patrick, it's the basic Autronic SMC...I think it was $1700 or so 5 years ago (this was scavenged from a stillborn 240SX project). I don't know the current pricing schedule, and how much inflation has affected it.

I'm primarily responsible for the engine's breathing upgrades...heads, cam design, intake, headers. I have had very little to do with the ECU and tuning, it's not my strong point.

I know that the ECU's wiring harness was made by grafting part of the Autronic's with part of the Subaru's. Jack did most of the work himself as I recall. Price? At least 8 hours of labor's worth. He also has the Autronic ignition amplifier, probably overkill for most applications unless it's got massive boost.

The tuning has been done by numerous people over time. I think the initial tuning was performed for free by a former XX Tuning employee who no longer works there. The engine was seeing 210-212 hp back then.

Later on the car/engine combo became the guinea pig for the advanced EFI-101 classes that were hosted at XX. So the instructor had plenty of time to further tune the car at least 5 or 6 times over the past two years. HP had crept up slowly from 210 or so to 221 hp via just tuning. Since the car was being used for the class, the cost of tuning was also free, as was the dyno time.

Most recently since the heads/cams were upgraded, Jack and a friend of his explored the wideband feedback potential for the tuning of the Autronic for the first time. They essentially reduced the previous 1.5-2 hours of tuning down to a 15-20 minute job, without using a $500-per-session professional tuner. Naturally this feature is pretty awesome, even someone like me who is computer illiterate could probably tune the car now.

[NikFu S.]

Originally Posted by RallyBob

This is the kind of info I find helpful. So standard bore for the EG33 is 96.9 mm, and the EJ25 is 99.5 mm, correct?

I was figuring on 98 mm for a final bore dimension, which on it's own creates a displacement of 3394 cc's. Ideally, I'd like to see a 78 mm stroke, but I can't relay this feasibility until I can inspect a stock piston's compression height to see if there's 1.5 mm of extra space available in order to move the pin height upwards. If so, this would yield 3530 cc's. Bore sleeves and a bit more stroke (98.5 x 78.81) would give 3603 cc's, which I'd call the upper 'practical' limit.

Any more insight?

I think by itself my comment was worthless for a few reasons, one being the number of ej22 trims available, and the fact we don't really know if the eg33 will have any issues in this regard, but it has been discussed quite a bit and the main point of contention is the cylinder walls may or may not be a touch on the thin side.

I don't recall of anyone successfully boring this engine, so who really knows. You've got the math down it seems, go for it.

[GreenMarine]

Originally Posted by RallyBob

That's my intent for posting it here to be honest. Not everyone wants, needs, or can afford to build for this kind of hp. But I figure parts of it can be detuned a bit and used on the street 'in moderation'. I really just love the way the engine sounds, that's my excuse for trying to get more hp!

Bob, would you beable to build an engine to about 300whp for someone if they had the $$$ to do it? If so, how much will it cost? I am VERY interested in this as I have never really been a fan of forced induction... Please let me know

Thanks

~ Chris

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by GreenMarineSVX

Bob, would you be able to build an engine to about 300whp for someone if they had the $$$ to do it? If so, how much will it cost? I am VERY interested in this as I have never really been a fan of forced induction... Please let me know

Thanks

~ Chris

Chris, I'll keep a running tab as I go in order to calculate the cost to duplicate any of this. And I'll try to include photos as well as how-to's. But I'm not looking at getting into business building engines for a living at this point in my life. There's a very limited market out there for this stuff, and I honestly don't want to tread on the feet of those who are already making a living supporting the marque. As well I'm sure there are plenty of others here who could do the work for you anyway.

[TomsSVX]

Bob, step on anyone's toes you like... The stuff you are doing is leaps and bounds beyond what has been going on here for the past 16 years You are doing great work and your input here is literally priceless

Tom

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Bob, step on anyone's toes you like... The stuff you are doing is leaps and bounds beyond what has been going on here for the past 16 years You are doing great work and your input here is literally priceless

Tom

Really...I'm not interested in doing this as a business. Part of my problem is I'm quite A.D.D., so I really enjoy doing the one-off type of work. But repeatedly doing the same stuff gets old with me very quickly, as well as taking it's toll on me physically (carpal tunnel, deafness, metal in my eyes, etc. from porting heads).

However I have no issues with someone else...oh say, maybe someone in NJ who is in the SVX business, applying what I'm learning to his own business plan, and making money from it. Welcome to the USA.

If I wanted to keep it 'secret', I'd never have posted about it to begin with. So IMO, all you guys are more than welcome to whatever knowledge can be extracted from my experiments.