Air intake Question?

[mbtoloczko]

Originally posted by Phil Hill
But I'd be interested in seeing the magazine test results. Any chance you could scan them in ??

...

In terms of the SVX all this is academic as the coil is connected directly to the plug, so the HT lead length must be all of 1/4". As the plug is grounded though the engine block, which is connected to the body by a dirty great big earth strap additional earthing should also be irrelevant.

The magazine was either a recent (within the last 5 months) issue of Super Street or Sport Compact Car. I don't remember which month, and I don't think I have the magazine. I was probably reading it at Barnes & Noble. Anyhow, the magazine tried the ground wires on two vehicles, one of which was a WRX, and the dyno charts showed a consistent HP gain throughout the entire powerband in both cases. I understand that the motor is already grounded to the body via a large strap, and the body is connected to the negative terminal of the battery. There is also a ground cable between the starter and the battery too. Perhaps its not an issue of resistance. Maybe its an inductance or impedance issue. We are talking about a dynamic process. I would guess that the ground wires do little to increase the voltage across the gap and rather they allow a shorter voltage discharge period giving a more intense spark. But what do I know; I'm not an electrical engineer.

[Phil Hill]

I'm pleased to see it's not only a UK thing to steal a read of a magazine at the store before deciding not to buy it !!

You could be right on the inductive/resistive/capacitive argument, I'm not sure how that would effect things. I'm not up on Imprezza's so I don't know about it's ignition system if it has distributed coils like SVX or not.

I think Trevor has a point about magazine articles though. It is very difficult for the article to remain unbiased if the product is being "presented" to a magazine project car for free on the basis of endorsement, or if the test was sponsored by the company who's product is being tested.

[Landshark]

Originally posted by Phil Hill
I'm pleased to see it's not only a UK thing to steal a read of a magazine at the store before deciding not to buy it !!

You could be right on the inductive/resistive/capacitive argument, I'm not sure how that would effect things. I'm not up on Imprezza's so I don't know about it's ignition system if it has distributed coils like SVX or not.

I think Trevor has a point about magazine articles though. It is very difficult for the article to remain unbiased if the product is being "presented" to a magazine project car for free on the basis of endorsement, or if the test was sponsored by the company who's product is being tested.

i work right near a bookstore - i read almost ALL of the car magazines, including the British ones.

i remember the article about the wire test - i believe what they did was put different mods on a WRX and dyno'd it to see which ones were the best bang for the buck. i think they even said they couldn't believe the effect the ground kit had. it seemed pretty objective to me.

if you look at the SVX (or WRX) battery wiring, it is very skimpy compared to most other cars i've ever seen. on NASIOC, they report that doing a 'grounding mod' smooths out the idle on their WRX's. does it add hp? i don't know. would i spend $60-$200 on a grounding kit? no, but i did spend about $6 for an 8 foot piece of 6awg wire and a couple bucks for some connectors. i figured it couldn't hurt anything.

[Trevor]

Originally posted by mbtoloczko


The magazine was either a recent (within the last 5 months) issue of Super Street or Sport Compact Car. I don't remember which month, and I don't think I have the magazine. I was probably reading it at Barnes & Noble. Anyhow, the magazine tried the ground wires on two vehicles, one of which was a WRX, and the dyno charts showed a consistent HP gain throughout the entire powerband in both cases. I understand that the motor is already grounded to the body via a large strap, and the body is connected to the negative terminal of the battery. There is also a ground cable between the starter and the battery too. Perhaps its not an issue of resistance. Maybe its an inductance or impedance issue. We are talking about a dynamic process. I would guess that the ground wires do little to increase the voltage across the gap and rather they allow a shorter voltage discharge period giving a more intense spark. But what do I know; I'm not an electrical engineer.

Is it not likely that con men and money ARE involved ? There is no problem tricking a so called ÒdynoÓ to print what ever is good for business.

Please someone explain this Ò dynamic process Ò and how once a given voltage has broken down a given resistance this additional magic pathway, which it now appears confirmed is even unlikely to alter resistance, alters an element of time and spark Ò intensity Ò.

The facts I have pointed out are based on the knowledge of an electrical engineer.

As per my previous post ----- The deep technology can be quite involved and can be quoted by way of confusion by those peddling snake oil but I know something of it having developed high tension equipment for industrial purposes. You are being conned.

[elninoalex]

As far as magazine objectivity goes, I read an Import Tuner mag a few years back where they tested a stock Civic DX vs a Civic with a cold air intake, header and catback system. The manufacturers ad in that very issue showed 10hp gain for the intake, 8 for the catback and 10 for the header. Import Tuner's dyno results revealed a total peak hp gain of 5 hp. There was no gain until about 6800 rpms. It lost 3 hp below 3500 rpm. They even mentioned in their ad about manufacturer's claimed gains being optimistic.

In a Sport Compact Car mag, they tested a Random Technologies 'High flow" cat against a OEM cat on a Nissan Sentra. The R.T. cat lost 1 hp on the dyno. Yet R.T had a full page ad in there for their cats.

Stephen

[Landshark]

Originally posted by Trevor
Is it not likely that con men and money ARE involved ? There is no problem tricking a so called ÒdynoÓ to print what ever is good for business.

dynos results can be altered, but some of the tests show that some products clearly aren't worth the money. some even show a LOSS of power - maybe those manufacturers didn't 'grease' the magazines pockets well enough?

i also thought that even if additional hp could actually be gained, i wasn't going to pay over $100 for some WIRE - i made my own mod for around $8. at the very least i won't have to worry about a poor ground path.

[Phast SVX]

Originally posted by Landshark


dynos results can be altered, but some of the tests show that some products clearly aren't worth the money. some even show a LOSS of power - maybe those manufacturers didn't 'grease' the magazines pockets well enough?

i also thought that even if additional hp could actually be gained, i wasn't going to pay over $100 for some WIRE - i made my own mod for around $8. at the very least i won't have to worry about a poor ground path.

I hear ya, my friend owns a speedshop with dyno, they do not promote the grounding kits, they installed one on a WRX to only gain a 3hp, which could have even been cuased from the fan being closer then it was on previos pulls anyways i will be adding some ground wires as well, figure it couldnt hurt
phil

[wawazat??]

Trevor,

From your days working with dynos and reading your posts about their inherent variability and "tweak-ability" by the tester, what can be expected in terms of averages and standard deviations when a number of tests are run on a vehicle? What number of pulls/tests without any changes would you recommend for a good confidence level?

Thanks,
Todd

[michael]

put your svx on a low carb high protien diet. remove excess weight spare tire jack sound deadening material, lots of plastics in the trunk rear wiper + motor all depends on what you can live without amps speakers carpet. not for me but its worth a look.

[Phast SVX]

Originally posted by wawazat??
Trevor,

From your days working with dynos and reading your posts about their inherent variability and "tweak-ability" by the tester, what can be expected in terms of averages and standard deviations when a number of tests are run on a vehicle? What number of pulls/tests without any changes would you recommend for a good confidence level?

Thanks,
Todd

best results comes from a 3 pulls in the same hour, assuming the engine is fully warmed up. A fan infront of the car can deviate 2-5hp. Ive dynod quite a few cars now, and by the third pull, a fully warmed car dosnt tend to make anymore power
phil

[Trevor]

Todd,

Phil is spot on. Three is the accepted minimum in regard to any test measurement.

It is a matter of making sure that nothing deviates from one measurement to the next and operator integrity and skill is essential. Not only does the car have to be at optimum temperature but also the Ò dyno Ò, which most are not, as they employ a water brake in lieu of a dynamo. Exactly similar tyre pressures for each test is an obvious requirement.

By way of humour even if sarcastic, I would suggest that any one making up their own earthing system use some Ò Monster Ò cable. That way they will invoke all of the commercially advertising magicians on offer and could have angels playing harps of wondrous tone, strung with oriented copper strings along on the band wagon as well !

Happy horsepower hunting. *<)

[mbtoloczko]

Originally posted by Trevor


Is it not likely that con men and money ARE involved ? There is no problem tricking a so called ÒdynoÓ to print what ever is good for business.

Please someone explain this Ò dynamic process Ò and how once a given voltage has broken down a given resistance this additional magic pathway, which it now appears confirmed is even unlikely to alter resistance, alters an element of time and spark Ò intensity Ò.

The facts I have pointed out are based on the knowledge of an electrical engineer.

As per my previous post ----- The deep technology can be quite involved and can be quoted by way of confusion by those peddling snake oil but I know something of it having developed high tension equipment for industrial purposes. You are being conned.

ok, so I may be ignorant on the deep technology and associated electrical engineering theory behind it (care to explain it in laymen's terms?), but I have read enough reports from end users of grounding cables that I do believe it makes some difference.

[Trevor]

Originally posted by mbtoloczko


ok, so I may be ignorant on the deep technology and associated electrical engineering theory behind it (care to explain it in laymen's terms?), but I have read enough reports from end users of grounding cables that I do believe it makes some difference.

In layman's terms electricity can be compared with hydraulics (plumbing) and any child able to suck on a straw should be able to appreciate the following.

If there is high water pressure suck/blow (volts being the equivalent) a good quantity will flow through a small pipe/straw (wire). The higher the pressure (volts), the greater the flow possible and therefore there is less reason for a large pipe or advantage gained in using one. The longer the pipe the greater the resistance to flow, i.e. the greater the need for larger cross section (pipe or wire).

According to Mr. Ohm and those of us who agree that the earth is not flat accept that he is correct, Amps = volts divided by resistance

In the event that there are two parallel pipes of unequal size subject to equal pressure the larger will pass the greater quantity of water and the same holds true in respect of conductive paths for electricity.

That said the head (resistance) against which the pressure (voltage) is applied becomes involved as should be obvious.

Here we are talking about an existing earthing system capable of passing starter current i.e. 100 + amps at a low voltage of approximately 12 volts. What is being said is that this system is not capable of passing milli amps of current at a voltage in excess of 8 kilo volts. Also that added copper wire of relatively small cross section and long length will provide a lower resistance path than the very short large cross section earth straps and the huge mass of the alloy engine.

What is more it is being suggested that the very, very small resistances involved could have a significant effect in respect of voltage delivered to the spark plugs. Credulity is stretched even further by suggesting that there will be a significant gain in horsepower.

In considering all this it should also be pointed out that carbon suppressor plug leads which have a high resistance are a normal path for h.t. ignition voltage and in theory have been claimed to offer advantages in respect of the spark produced.

[mbtoloczko]

ok. I understand the V=IR stuff. You said something about deep technology. I'm interested in that.

[Trevor]

Originally posted by mbtoloczko
ok. I understand the V=IR stuff. You said something about deep technology. I'm interested in that.

You now say that you are conversant with OhmÕs law. If I had thought you were I would not have wasted my time in presenting my previous post. If you do, how is it that you have been taken for a fool ?

You appear to be intent on probing for a weak point in my knowledge of the subject and you are stretching my patience. I continue not for your benefit but in respect of others who will be viewing this thread.

Modern ignition systems incorporate electronic components and circuitry which effect time factors involving the the H.T. coil primary circuit so as to increase the duration of the spark particularly at high R.P.M. This technology involves the low voltage side of the system and nothing in the H.T. circuit can have any effect in regard to the factors involved. The Subaru system using separate coils for each plug has major advantages in this area.

As soon as inductance and capacity become involved the element of time enters the equation. An inductance takes time to saturate and a capacitor to charge all of which involves primary circuit components.

There is so much to talk about in this area that in order to confuse those without specialised knowledge it is easy for terms to be dishonestly used describing that which in fact can not be altered or affected by any modification to the H.T. return path. This is the point to which I drew attention. In lay terms it is difficult to provide more exact information. If you wish to learn more you will have to undertake some study.