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  #16  
Old 10-20-2014, 06:01 PM
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Sean486 Sean486 is offline
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Re: Powder coating SVX rims ( how hard can it be?)

Anxious awaiting result pics!
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  #17  
Old 10-20-2014, 06:49 PM
Chucksta Chucksta is offline
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Re: Powder coating SVX rims ( how hard can it be?)

It was all good up to this point, the, of course, it was time for an "oops".. I called the V.P. in to assist ( today, he's the V.P. of product improvement ). As I picked up the rim off the hanger, it was necessary to remove the copper hanger. Well, hanger is a bit of a stretch. To hang the rim, I just grabbed a length of 12/2 and stripped out the ground part. Anyway, for once he actually did what I said as soon as I said it. I said "Grab the rim"... I was about to add "from the center", but it was too late, he, of course, grabbed it from the back side. . As you may have noticed from the picture of the rim hanging, the wire passed through the center of the rim, necessitating removing it before it went in the oven. It didn't actually contact the face of the rim while being powder coated, but, unfortunately, it did contact the rim while being removed. Second "oops".

So we had the philosophical debate as to what to do about the two "oops". The solution we came up with was to sprinkle a bit of powder by hand over the affected area, and see if it spread out while baking. Along the lines of finding out what was within the tolerances of " that won't show after it's baked"..


So into the oven it goes. One of the things about powder coating is that there MUST be an electrical point of contact. If you're lucky, you can make it somewhere it won't be visible on the finished product. The other consideration is that, unless you can hang it in the oven by the same point, there will be marks from the contact points when baking. Thus the on it's back on the bottom rack for curing. That also introduces some considerations as to curing times due to the proximity to the bottom heating element. More about that later, but for now, in she goes.


So here comes the WTF factor, The oven was up to curing temp for over an hour before the rim was put in, so absolutely, the internal temperature was stable ( and verified with the gun ). Yet, with the oven door being open for less than thirty seconds, the oven started to lose temperature with the rim inside. Usually, with nothing in the oven, if the element was on, a reduction in the setting of a few degrees would result in the indicator light going off. Conversely, if the indicator light was off, raising the temperature setting a few degrees would bring the indicator light on. Four minutes after putting the rim in, the indicator light was still on, and I had to drop the setting down to about 340 F to get the indicator to go out. From that significantly less than double blind situational observational analysis, I could only conclude that twenty five pounds of cold aluminum was putting a smack down on the heating abilities of the oven. The other "dammit" factor was that it was apparent that the lower part of the rim was being blasted with the radiant heat of the element, mere inches away, while the top of the rim was not being heated properly.

As noted earlier, the actual timing of the curing process is supposed to start when the part reaches the specified curing temperature. That's fine as a concept, especially when curing smaller parts, that head up comparatively rapidly. I've done several small items, and all that I do is add two or three minutes, set the timer, and pull the item when the buzzer goes off. Small items usually show the powder starting to flow within ninety seconds, indicating that curing process has begun.

So here's the problem, the rim is way under curing temperature, but the coating is starting to flow...






Now, I'll be the first to admit that I know jack about polymers, resins, curing at lower temperatures, etc., so now I'm kinda stumped. If it says that it cures in ten minutes at 375 F, obviously, it would cure at 370 F, it would just take longer, it would cure at 350 F , but what would it take? An extra ten minutes? An extra hour?.. Once again, let down by the University of Y&G.. What I needed was a chart that said " If coated product weighs X, add X minutes for each additional pound"... Maybe such a chart exists, but if it does, I couldn't find it.


I pulled it out of the oven, and it smoked when it hit the cool air, so I stuck it back in for another ten minutes... and got this.





And on the back, with the black base with the burgundy overspray mixed in..



Not what I was aiming for, but definitely interesting..

Now what will a coat of clear do for it?
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  #18  
Old 10-20-2014, 08:49 PM
Chucksta Chucksta is offline
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Re: Powder coating SVX rims ( how hard can it be?)

This coat (clear coat ) is going on on with the rim cooling off to ambient air temperature ( 7 C ). Also, I'm putting the hanging / ground wire around the rim's center ( inside where there'll be no coating ) and it'll be short / tight enough so that I can just lift the rim up, and leave it there and just toss it in the oven. This should eliminate any un mounting "oops"

For this coat, as it's a second coat, it's time to up the air flow to the powder coating gun, and raise the setting to 40,000 Kv.

Completely coated in clear coat, both sides, in about 45 seconds..




In the oven again, same issue with coating flowing, even though the rim itself is well below the temperature from which it calls for to start the timing of the curing..




sitting on top of the stove... Is it done? Hell if I know.. Timing something that is that slow to heat up is obviously it's own dog. The only thing that I could find on the University of Y&G is that you should do the part, and then test it by seeing what it would take to remove the coating, adjust methodology until the desired results are achieved, and then repeat the successful protocol for all remaining pieces Umm... yeah.. get right on that Let's give it another five in the oven.




After it cooled off and sat for a minute.



Damn, that center just looks so .. naked.. And the centers I have look grey and weathered and ... hey! there's a five year old rattle can of Krylon gold..




Let it dry and pop it in.




Let's try a different angle..





So, at the end of the day, this is about the best shot I have of the finished product. This shot doesn't do the rim justice. At all. The colour and finish bend with the light, it looks rich and deep, it looks different in sunlight, cloud, fluorescent, L.E.D., etc. I don't know whether I like it or not. Expectation clouds perception, and this is, clearly, not what I was expecting, all "oops" aside. I see the finish on svxcess's rims and just drool. My V.P. of "feng shui" loves the rim, warts and all, he thinks it's absolutely cool, and "oops" aside, that I should do the other three exactely the same, just pass the wire wheel over them after blasting to remove the "sparklies".



At this point, I'm going to have to decide whether to go after the finish on the aluminum until it's basically flawless, or to throw a base coat on the spoke side and hope that 50,000 Kv ( my gun's max ) is enough to get the third coat to stick ( the clear coat ).

Be blunt, be brutal.. love it or hate it?

Suggestions or resources? ( especially about the curing time for something as massive as a rim) would be more than welcome.

The original idea of this post was " How much could it cost?".. Damn near lost sight of that, now didn't I?

4 rims.. you already have those... free!
some form of grinder ( for the wire wheel ) $60.00
If you have a decent compressor, a die grinder ($45.00 ) does a great job, slower but still works is a decent drill, plugged, NiMh / Li/ion, doesn't matter..
powder coating gun $60.00 - $300.00. $150.00 ( median priced )
oven ( used POS ) $0.00 to $50.00

Cost of disposables per rim.

1 can of Permatex Gasket Remover...... $9.00
4 oz. powder coat $2.00
1 wire wheel $3.00


So, if you own everything but the gun, it's $50.00 a rim and about 4 hours a rim in time. That's if they're in the condition mine were. The nicer they are, the less work they are. Less time getting them prepped. And when you're done, you still own the gun.

Other than equipment, you could do rims for less than $20.00 each.

Seriously, if you can get someone to do, and do them right, for less than $100.00 a rim.... STFU, give them the money and smile.

Would I undertake this project again, knowing what I know now? Yes, but I'd do it with something that didn't have a time frame. Speaking of that, I haven't touched the fourth rim. I'm saving that for last so that I can time it, start to finish. I've been through a few ways of cleaning / prepping the rim, and am pretty sure I've figured out the best way to do it. On the last rim, I'll stop watch the process, and have a definitive final answer on how long it takes to take a POS rim through to pristine and finished. This project needs to be done, one way or another in a few weeks. These are my winter rims, my SVX is registered to my other house in Quebec. If I get caught there after mid November without snow tires, I'll get fined and lose points off my license. They don't pull you over to check, but if they pull you over, they will check and write the ticket. They got tired of pulling people with all season radials out of the ditch in the winter. The necessity of doing it now, with a deadline is pushing other things aside, but sometimes a deadline is excellent motivation. This is one of them.

I actually like the whole powder coating thing. I've got a fair amount of "bits" that I'll do, which will amortize the cost per part of the equipment I bought down to a reasonable level. The V.P. of biological engineering managed to T-bone a fire hydrant with the John Deere and severely whuuped the front crash guard. Straightening the bumper and a coat of the liquid black are definitely on the "to do" list for the winter. I'll find a metal enclosure big enough to hang a body in, insulate it and use the current oven for parts to power it before the spring.

That being said, I'm not adverse to things to "practice the craft" on.. This offer is good until I withdraw it...

Ship me a part, prepped for coating, with a return mailer prepaid, and I'll coat it, bake it, and send it back within a week. $5.00. If you want it prepped ( that means it'll fit in a blast cabinet ) it's $10.00. Once again, with a prepaid mailer to get it home to you. My blast cabinet will fit a 16 inch SVX rim... barely.. and leaves me almost no room to work on it, so, please.. make sure the items are smaller. Please. I bought 8 finishes and a clear coat. Email me for a link to the colours if you are interested. I can attempt custom colours as I have the necessary bases to attempt to match any colour chip you send me. 50% off my end will be donated to the maintenance of this website. ( maybe enough money to upgrade the server so that we can host our own images, and not use "Photobucket", which eventually expires) Do NOT send me your front subframe! , but smaller bits are welcome! Lol. Any part sent to me may, (and probably will ) be documented, from start to finish and put with all pertinent details into a thread that would, hopefully, share the knowledge necessary to be able to competently do it yourself, with best results and minimum investment. Yes, the whole SVX community may see your alternator pulley, naked, with all it's flaws exposed. Such are the sacrifices we must make for the advancement of the beautification of our collectibles.
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  #19  
Old 10-20-2014, 08:59 PM
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Sean486 Sean486 is offline
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Re: Powder coating SVX rims ( how hard can it be?)

Looks kind of like what would come out of the kiln after applying the glaze in my pottery class. Happy accidents and all.

I think that black would work better than gold for those centers.
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  #20  
Old 10-20-2014, 09:59 PM
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Re: Powder coating SVX rims ( how hard can it be?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucksta View Post

So in my infinite wisdom, I decided to and powder coat them to match the burgundy paint on my '97.
.
If you were going for an exact paint match in both color and gloss, I am wondering why you did not just strip the rims, use aluminum primer under actual color-correct automotive paint, and just seal it under clear powder coat. Doing a 2-stage like that preserves the metallic sparkle, as the metallic is set and doesn't flow and sink to the bottom. It makes it easier to duplicate if you are only doing one wheel at a time in a small oven.

It also gives you the advantage of painting the center caps to match with a clear acrylic top coat. That is what was done to my original OEM wheels HERE

In large commercial powder coating ovens, the temperature is more precisely controlled, as many wheels and other parts cured at the same time, using heat and convection to evenly distribute air flow.


Look at this website for interesting effects and ideas. http://www.liquidpowdercoats.com/old...e/gallery.html


Their new website is HERE

According to their current prices, 2-stage (metallic base and clear top coat) is $97.50 each if wheels just need to be stripped and redone, no repair, welding or curb rash.



Although every company is different, here is their method of wheel prep for powder coating. http://www.liquidpowdercoats.com/old...wheelprep.html

Basically a hot chemical stripper bath to "melt" and remove all factory or aftermarket finishes (even powder coat). Then mild media blasting (no sand), followed by an Iron Phosphate coat to prevent corrosion and improve powder adhesion. This is also what Transwheel did with my wheels.

.
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Last edited by svxcess; 10-20-2014 at 10:43 PM.
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  #21  
Old 10-20-2014, 11:17 PM
Chucksta Chucksta is offline
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Re: Powder coating SVX rims ( how hard can it be?)

@ svxcess.. Excellent points.. I maybe should have used a word other than "matched", when describing the finish I was looking to get.. More accurate adjectives would have been "complementary", "accentuating", or simply "looks good with". I wasn't necessarily looking for the rims to look like they were done with the same paint as the body.

The concept of an aluminum primer that would withstand the required temperatures to cure powder coating and a clear coat is something that I hadn't looked into. Most of the stuff I read said that paint had to be removed from the item, as it would just pull ( flake up ), from the heat when you went to cure the polymer coating. The Clear Burgundy that i'm using cures at a relatively low temp, compared to other finishes, so I'll definitely have to look into that combination for a finish.

It's obvious at this point, the opinion of the V.P. aside, that I either need to get the rim to an absolutely uniform state of finish, or coat it prior to the Burgundy going on. To match the center caps, that can't be baked, to the final finish just doesn't seem likely. I'm probably better off just taking the wire brush on the end of the die grinder to them and going with a gloss black.

Personally, I didn't mind the shading on the spokes, up to a point. But, that point was not controllable in the application process, not by a long shot.


I've got at least another day of rain, so nothing is going to happen outside till after then. At least with the rim cleaned, a rebake is only a thirty minute job. Permatex Gasket remover means a clean rim is less than 20 minutes away. this "oops" is, realistically, only an hours setback.

So, I can tell.. Ya all really didn't like the funky look of the rims.. LOL.. They've gotten a 2 for 2 thumbs up from the "under 25" crew.. Kinda like in "Back To The Future", when Marty McFly, goes Van Halen on "Johnny B Good".. The crowd starts dancing when he starts, but then grinds to a halt when he starts doing double tap hammer ons.. His parting comment? You're not ready for this, but your kids are going to love it/..

I absolutely agree that they should show a solid finish, no flaws whatsoever. That was the objective. But it was definitely a surprise to see the difference of opinion of the "oops" finished product, based on age.

If anyone reading this has a resource / algorithm / educated guess as how to compute curing times based on weight as it affects curing time on a per pound basis, please give it up.. I've seen some of the brain power on this site turned towards finding solutions to other issues, reverse engineering of Subaru programming, etc., some of you guys occasionally give hints as to owning skill sets that you don't exactly brag about. Nows the time to unleash the beast...post it! . The chances of you being more wrong than me are zero. If I have instructions, I'll follow them.. otherwise, it's "use the force Luke, use the force." So far, the results of that methodology have been less than exemplary. Lets's get a set of SVX rims being stripped, coated and looking crisp a slam dunk.

Thanks guys..
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  #22  
Old 10-21-2014, 04:45 AM
Blacky Blacky is offline
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Re: Powder coating SVX rims ( how hard can it be?)

In Quebec snow tires are mandatory by December 15th.

As for the rims..meh. Nota berry good to me. Sorry.
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  #23  
Old 10-21-2014, 05:14 AM
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Re: Powder coating SVX rims ( how hard can it be?)

Just a thouught to stabilize the temperature of the oven. Use the upper element and line the bottom with fire bricks? Also is it possible to put a hook in the center of the ceiling of the oven to hang the parts?
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  #24  
Old 10-24-2014, 02:50 AM
Chucksta Chucksta is offline
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Re: Powder coating SVX rims ( how hard can it be?)

Minor update...

Well, I hate to say it, but the rim I just did, although not what I wanted, grows on you.. It looks funky, and, like I said, the "under 25 crowd" ( my kid's buddies ), say do the other three just like that, just wet sand them before coating them.

Ummm.. no.. LOL.. That's not the look I was going for, so it's not the look I'm going to settle for. Limitations of the oven and timing issues aside, it's obvious that the oven is more than capable of baking the finish properly. It'll just take a bit of guesstimation on the curing time.

I'm going to take a whack at what kind of time is going to be required to get the bare aluminum of a severely neglected rim into pristine enough condition to coat and bake. If it's less than a couple of hours per rim, then that's the plan and it's game on! If, however on the other hand, it's going to be way worse than that, it's going to be rattle can high heat enamel primer ( like you'd use for an engine clock or similar high heat application), and then coat and bake. That will also give me the chance to see if my equipment will properly coat the final layer ( clear coat ) over primer and base coat.

Nice idea about fire brick.. Nice idea about the top element.. Nice idea about hanging the piece from the top of the oven... Trouble is, they are all pretty much exclusive.

If I use the top element, I'll need something to circulate the air in the oven. That means a high temp fan, which I don't have and have no room in the oven for. Years ago, I had an oven pooch out the lower element on Christmas Day, with a turkey in the oven. I switched to "broil".. Let's just say that the result wasn't what I had in mind. Heat rises, and with no forced circulation, Mr. Turkey didn't cook evenly... not even close. Fortunately, I usually just eat the white meat.

If I remove the top element, I'd have more clearance, but lose the ability to run both elements at the same time, which is something I should probably do when I put in something with as much heat load as a rim. Also, removing the top element and hanging the rim, would just transfer the heat imbalance from the radiance of the element from top and bottom to side to side. As I cure the rims "face up", it's the most invisible part of the rim that is ( possibly ) being over heated.

Fire bricks? Hmm .. that does present a couple of possibilities.. Take out the top element for clearance, and put the fire bricks over the bottom element to diffuse the heat, without losing the heating capacity of the element.. might be do- able, but I'll need to measure for total clearance. I've actually been using the top element as a hanging rack for small pieces I've done. It works well, is firmly screwed to the roof of the oven..

I'm going to be too busy to get anymore done for the next couple of days, but I've pretty well cleared off Sunday to have at it again.. pics of a science experiment ( hopefully not gone horribly wrong ) sometime Sunday night / early Monday morning.

Yeah... How hard can it be? Lol..

It hasn't been hard, but it's been educational and fun..

Thanks to all for the suggestions and links and support.

I still wish someone who can, would figure out how to accommodate curing times based on aluminum heat absorption per pound to ambient ( oven ) temperature as a curve.. I could do it with the temp gun as another science experiment, but I would've thought that somewhere, somehow, someone would've already known the answer, or, where to find that info..
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  #25  
Old 10-24-2014, 05:49 AM
Blacky Blacky is offline
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Re: Powder coating SVX rims ( how hard can it be?)

I've sent your aluminum heat absorption per pound query to my brother. He's a bit of a techno/mechano genius, former technical director of GM Motorsports in Oshawa. I'll let you know his answer.
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  #26  
Old 10-24-2014, 09:11 AM
Blacky Blacky is offline
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Re: Powder coating SVX rims ( how hard can it be?)

Well...You asked for it!

Hi James.
It's theoretically possible, but not practical. Given the weight of the wheel and knowing the specific heat of aluminum (how many calories it takes to raise one gram by one Celsius degree) the total required transmitted heat could be calculated, but then one would have to know the rate of conductive, convective and radiant heat transfer from the stove atmosphere and heating element to the wheel. The radiant heat transfer alone would be dependent on the reflectance, absorbance and insulative values of the particular paint used. The former values would also be continuously changing as the wheel warmed up.

Bottom line: Far easier just to monitor the wheel temperature. I just recently bought a very accurate laser-guided infrared thermometer gun from Costco for under $20... Once the requirements are established, subsequent wheels could just be given X minutes each.

Hope this helps.

-Bill
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Old 10-27-2014, 09:54 PM
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Re: Powder coating SVX rims ( how hard can it be?)

Well.. Where to start?

Sorry about not posting yesterday as promised, my bad. I intended to get at it, but the weather didn't co-operate. My back yard is fairly well cushioned against wind, most times, but yesterday wasn't one of those times. Although powder coating is held to the piece by an electrostatic charge, once the leads are off, there's literally nothing keeping it in place that would withstand and significant wind.

Secondly, I'd like to thank Blacky for helping out with a difficult technical question about temperature rise gradients. I appreciate the info. But, damn.. I was hoping for " No worries Chuck, it's X per gram of aluminum per minute on a sliding scale of X per degree of temperature difference... here's what it'd look like plotted on a graph. Hey, I can dream, can't I?

However, the answer that I did get, was, if nothing else, a great shove in the right direction. The buffugly ( or freekin' cool, depending on your taste ) outcome of the first attempt, did have one redeeming factor. It showed that the powder coating is fairly forgiving as to temperature and time. Way more forgiving than I would have expected. Part of the prep process for powder coating is called "off gassing". That's where you toss the rim in and leave it in long enough that all the contaminates that are in the pores of the metal are cooked out, so that they won't cause an issue when the part is in the oven with coating on it. So, I'm going to take the opportunity of having to do what Blacky said, and just use my laser guided infra red $14.00 Ebay, shipped directly in 45 day, guaranteed accurate within 1 degree, temp sensor to chart the temp rise of 1 rim. I'll do my best to minimize the variables. I'll start the oven one hour before putting the rim in, to stabilize the oven's operating temp. Keep the rim in the house for at least four hours before, etc. That should give me a very rough guideline on the warmup temperature.

As the temperature rise of the heated part as a time value is a function of mass and temperature difference, I'll try a second rim with the same methodology, but with one difference. When I actually bake food in an oven, I use a high initial heat to sear. For example, a roast at 350?, put the oven to 425, and then put the roast in and turn it down to 350. I'll try that methodology with a rim. That should accomplish a quicker rise to curing temperature, and, as the rim absorbs the heat from the oven, the lower element won't come on immediately, which should reduce uneven / radiant heating, or over curing. I'll follow the rims temp with the temp gun and see if my hypotheses proves correct.

Moving right along to what I actually did get accomplished, ..

I was a bit pissed at Subaru for there not being anymore fresh factory rims in stock at my local Dealership, so on Sunday afternoon, I rounded up every SVX I could find and we stormed the gates of Subaru Canada's Corporate Headquarters. I wanted an apology, or, failing that, to either confirm or deny the rumours about the 2017 SVX. Unfortunately, they're closed on Sunday, and they have gated security arm post thingys... The SVX has 6.5 inch ground clearance, and they had 8 inch curbs... damn!! It's not that kind of all wheel drive.






Not much point in a protest with nobody to see it, and I forgot to send the press release to the media. Having nothing else to do, I bought this on my way home. Rather than try to get a rim flawless, I'll use this to get an acceptable base to powder coat.




And, because it would seem that I shouldn't have gold Krylon spray painted centers for my rims unless I dig out my platform shoes from the back of my closet. I bought this. I was not going to buy just "black", when, for a couple of bucks more, I could get "Carbon Mist"



I took a rim that was baked to "off gas" it, whipped it with the wire wheel on the die grinder, blew it off with compressed air and painted the high heat on it.... No other prep. The high heat is very, very thin coming out of the can. I picked up one sag before I could even say, " I hope I don't put a sag in this!"..

It came out like this. Yup, you can see the road rash imperfections through the paint, but, it's way closer to the uniform finish than I could have possibly gotten with just the wire brush. Not without spending a considerable amount of time on. If I can get the rim to hold both the "Clear Burgundy" and the clear coat, it should come out very close to what I had in mind when I said " How much could it cost?".



The centers went through the blast cabinet and the gold Krylon came off in less than a minute per center. The "Carbon Mist" came out like this.





Yes, I know, I know.. this is the rim that I still have to strip and redo, but this will give you an idea.




Tomorrow ( Tuesday ) is supposed to be really warm for this time of year.. 20 C.. it'll be windy, but I won't know if the wind will get into the area I work in or not until I get there. I'll either do the powder coating on the prepped rims, or, if weather isn't friendly to that, I'll work on prepping the other rims.

Once again, thanks to all for comments, suggestions, research, etc.. greatly appreciated. I'm still open to comments, suggestions, ideas and creative / constructive criticism, mentoring, outside the box thinking, random thoughts, kudos, whatever..

Oh.. and if anybody knows what the pass code for the gate arm thingys at Subaru Corporate, please share. The kids felt like Mom and Dad had locked them out.

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