Why our country is screwed

[Subie59]

"I will say it AGAIN. Profit motive is NOT the same thing as greed. You instantly seem to think that people doing business are instantly out-of-moral-control, as a de-facto state of operation. That is just not the case. Most people doing business are people trying to earn a living for their family, just as you are"

Tell that to Goldman Sachs, Citibank, Madoff, Enron, Lehman Bros..... and the list goes on. Million dollar bonuses to guys who should be put in jail... I guess that's the free market way....

[SubaROO]

Originally Posted by Subie59

If I got a serious form of cancer and my chances were not good and i knew I would bankrupt my family in trying to fight a losing battle, I think suicide is a very realistic alternative. That's all I'm saying. I'm sure it is a consideration many people facing this situation consider all the time. It's not cowardice at all. Cowardice is willing to bankrupt your family so that you can have a shot at beating the odds.
But what is ridiculous, is that anyone is forced to make this decision.

I have to disagree with your entire post here, and call you a sack of **** for even comparing cowardice to wanting to live. So you're calling my father a coward for having cancer and no insurance, but not committing suicide? He is a coward for wanting to see his son graduate college, or go to his wedding? A coward for wanting to share his life with his wife, whom he married? You make it sound as if getting cancer, or getting sick, is a personal choice. As if we're born with an options list, much like a car, and he just checked off the cancer box and said "What the hell, let's see what that's like!" People like you need a reality check.

What about the other people who live in the same, or similar situations? For the record, we live a fairly good life, even with the situation. I don't know you, but just from this post, I hope you go through something even HALF as serious as what my family is. Maybe then you'll understand how much of a MORON your post makes you out to be.

Think before you speak. Please.

[BoxerFanatic]

Did I ever say that greed didn't exist? Did I ever say that people who break the law deserve not to be prosecuted?

There are over 300 million people in this country, and hundreds of thousands of corporations. You've named 4 corporations, and one man. The man is now in prison for the rest of his natural life, and the vast majority of his wealth is likely being seized, as a result of his illegal, immoral actions.

The financial companies that were going out of business, largely deserved to. and if they were acting illegally, they deserve to be prosecuted as Enron sort of was.

The question is... does government meddling in legal business make illegal business any less common? NO.

Did government involvement in the financial industry help that problem, with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and either enticing, or threatening companies into going against their interests to lend to high risk debtors for the Community Reinvestment Act?

The government meddles where it shouldn't. The government then doesn't properly investsigate criminal activity AS it is happening, and then they under-prosecute once it comes to light, usually AFTER the stuff has hit the fan.

They do things that they shouldn't be doing, and then the things they should be doing, they either aren't, or are doing it relatively POORLY.

Where was the SEC while all this was going on? Why didn't the "regulators" catch the stuff you mention earlier? Maybe they were too busy hassling 'smaller fish', and meddling with people just trying to do their work... Maybe they were doing what little they could, I don't know. But they didn't prevent the crashes of the companies you mention. They didn't catch Madoff, until after it was too late.

And yet, you think Government is the answer for MORE meddling in legal activities, on the basis that they should copy YOUR assumption of guilt before innocence, and class warfare envy?

Do you want the police to come to your home, and assume you are doing something illegal? To presume you guilty before proven innocent? Or do you think they should just respond long after you've been victimized, and not really work to keep ACTUAL criminals detained, or catch them early when they first start to commit crimes.

As bad as you assume free market participants are, you cite very FEW examples. You advocate for government control, when government has yet to prove that it can really do ANYTHING it tries to do with competency and efficiency.

It is easy to regurgitate the names from the most prominent headlines of the news... How about using some more in-depth reasoning, and realize that most people... are just people. Protecting law and order does not involve impeding the lawful at every turn, but concentrating on dealing with the actual criminals effectively.

[Subie59]

Subaroo you have taken the discussion out of context. It is a discussion about universal healthcare. I simply stated that if I had a serious form of cancer and I knew treating it would bankrupt my family, suicide would be an option that I would have to consider.
i was then called a coward for considering it. I made an argument that suicide would not be a cowardice act in that circumstance.

But my real argument is that no-one should ever have to choose between fighting a serious illness and bankrupting their family. That is ludicrous in this day in age.
It would never ever happen in a society with universal healthcare.
I in no way meant to say anything mean about someone who fought cancer or is fighting cancer. sorry if that offended you.

[SoCal LS-L]

Originally Posted by SubaROO

I have to disagree with your entire post here, and call you a sack of **** for even comparing cowardice to wanting to live. So you're calling my father a coward for having cancer and no insurance, but not committing suicide? He is a coward for wanting to see his son graduate college, or go to his wedding? A coward for wanting to share his life with his wife, whom he married? You make it sound as if getting cancer, or getting sick, is a personal choice. As if we're born with an options list, much like a car, and he just checked off the cancer box and said "What the hell, let's see what that's like!" People like you need a reality check.

What about the other people who live in the same, or similar situations? For the record, we live a fairly good life, even with the situation. I don't know you, but just from this post, I hope you go through something even HALF as serious as what my family is. Maybe then you'll understand how much of a MORON your post makes you out to be.

Think before you speak. Please.

Look man, its ok to disagree and its obvious you feel very strongly on the matter, but PLEASE refrain from insulting other members. I know you havent been here long but in this network the overwhelming majority of us show mutual respect to each other, even if in disagreement with one anothers views. I didnt see anything in Subie59s post that directed any insult at you so please be a little more tactful in your replies, even if offended. Thanks

[SubaROO]

What a joke. Not much else to say there.

[demonsvx]

Yes please keep the discussion on track and not flame other members whatever their opinion may be. Rather voice your anger, frustration, pain, etc to your local REPRESENTATIVES, SENATORS, MAYORS GOVERNERS, ETC. These are ELECTED officials and let them know if you are not happy with their SWORN DUTY they will lose your vote.

But what I fear the most is our country is failing due to greed, corruption, waste and stupidity. I think our country is becoming a socialist state because of the governments control on so many levels. We used to fear socialism but now embrace it. Remember a government that can give you everything can also take it away.

[SubaROO]

Originally Posted by demonsvx

Remember a government that can give you everything can also take it away.

It seems too many people are a-OK with that idea.

[SoCal LS-L]

Originally Posted by SubaROO

What a joke. Not much else to say there.

Dont get me wrong, your opinion is welcome, and encouraged, just please dont call people names. We're all here to help and exchange info, thats all. And im sorry about your dad, my uncle died of cancer a few years back and my 5 year old golden retriever died of it on friday... so I understand your feeling on the matter.

[demonsvx]

[BoxerFanatic]

Originally Posted by Subie59

But my real argument is that no-one should ever have to choose between fighting a serious illness and bankrupting their family. That is ludicrous in this day in age.
It would never ever happen in a society with universal healthcare.
I in no way meant to say anything mean about someone who fought cancer or is fighting cancer. sorry if that offended you.

No, it wouldn't.

Suicide would not be necessary, health-care would be rationed and denied to someone old and terminally ill.

Socialized medicine is a breeding ground for eugenics, and has been for several hundred years.

It makes sense. Bureaucratic health care cannot keep up with demand, especially when people think it is "free" while they are being fleeced for it.

Then they ration. Like Great Britain... they pass laws limiting the wait time in the emergency room. Now, they hold people for hours in Ambulances in the parking lots of emergency rooms, until the waiting room time break-over, which wastes a lot of resources for the ambulance operator, and denies ambulance service to other people.

After rationing for everyone, and as costs in the bureaucracy continue to rise, and taxation gets more ownerous, and still doesn't solve the problem, they then have to start rationing people completely out. The elderly. The disabled, the chronically ill, the terminally ill, and the genetically deficient. Even people with habits like smoking, or issues like being overweight.

When the government can pick and choose who gets health care, people who don't meet the criteria, or don't have political connections, don't get timely service, or sometimes service at all...

So you don't go bankrupt paying for over-priced, over-regulated treatment, you deteriorate and potentially die waiting for treatment at all, while your income, and eventually even your wealth, is taxed away anyway.

Just keep in mind, money means nothing if you are dead, by your own hand, or by someone else's.

But neither over-regulated, expensive to operate half-government healthcare, and WAY over-regulated, INSANELY expensive, FULL government healthcare are not the only two options.

How about appropriately regulated, economically competitive, minimal government involvement, privately chosen and purchased healthcare.

If health care practitioners want customers, maybe they should be expected to cater to them. Maybe people should learn that health care isn't free, and the only way for it to be affordable, is for it to be competitive, and freely chosen, and not socialized and built into a nanny-state.

Socialism fails EVERY time it is tried, even if it takes a long time. Freedom works, if people would try it, and be responsible for their participation in it. The US hasn't done that in many, many decades, so don't fool yourself that it is failing now.

The government tendrils are already far too long, and wrapped around the arteries of this country and economy. More constriction is not the answer, but will suffocate us, and people in other countries that may or may not realize how much of their economies depend on a larger economy.

[Green1995SVX]

Originally Posted by Subie59

So greensvx if you get into a car accident and need to go to emergency and have to stay in hospital for a couple of days, you might have to pay $5,000. That's ludicrous. How about if you and your wife had a child. I understand that a simple birth of a child, no complications, can cost $4,000 or more.
So whatabout a visit to the doctor's office, do you pay for that as well?

The last time I went to see a doctor was when I was in college and still covered under my father's health insurance. (6 years ago). I would never consider going to see a doctor. A couple of years ago I was very sick and inquired at a doctors office as to pricing. It was actually VERY expensive because they said since I hadn't been to see a doctor in so long, they would need to charge me some sort of new patient fee. I decided not to follow through with going because of the price.

You're right though. If i got into a car accident, I would have to scrape together 5 grand.

Regarding the child birth thing. Though my partner and I have been trying quite hard, he hasn't gotten pregnant yet! *crosses fingers!* Your point, though, is correct.

Mike

[demonsvx]

Originally Posted by Green1995SVX

The last time I went to see a doctor was when I was in college and still covered under my father's health insurance. (6 years ago). I would never consider going to see a doctor. A couple of years ago I was very sick and inquired at a doctors office as to pricing. It was actually VERY expensive because they said since I hadn't been to see a doctor in so long, they would need to charge me some sort of new patient fee. I decided not to follow through with going because of the price.

You're right though. If i got into a car accident, I would have to scrape together 5 grand.

Regarding the child birth thing. Though my partner and I have been trying quite hard, he hasn't gotten pregnant yet! *crosses fingers!* Your point, though, is correct.

Mike

"he hasn't gotten pregnant yet! " I hope you meant "she"
Anyway if you acheive this you would be quite famous but I think your work will be futile

[Mike621]

Originally Posted by demonsvx

"he hasn't gotten pregnant yet! " I hope you meant "she"
Anyway if you acheive this you would be quite famous but I think your work will be futile

My partner and I have been trying too!

[Wikedjuggalo]

Originally Posted by Subie59

Subaroo you have taken the discussion out of context. It is a discussion about universal healthcare. I simply stated that if I had a serious form of cancer and I knew treating it would bankrupt my family, suicide would be an option that I would have to consider.
i was then called a coward for considering it. I made an argument that suicide would not be a cowardice act in that circumstance.

But my real argument is that no-one should ever have to choose between fighting a serious illness and bankrupting their family. That is ludicrous in this day in age.
It would never ever happen in a society with universal healthcare.
I in no way meant to say anything mean about someone who fought cancer or is fighting cancer. sorry if that offended you.

My father is currently battling Leukemia. I will say this, yes he pays for health insurance and he'd much rather go bankrupt then commit suicide. He has so far over 1 million dollars worth of medical bills which thankfully the insurance has covered. When he was first diagnosed he was taken to a cancer center in Portland Oregon. There was no waiting no sign up sheet to see a doctor. He was admitted and immediately started running test. When he was diagnosed it there was no waiting or anything. I fear with universal health care and the negatives they bring with them his chances of survival would have dropped. Simply search the survival rate for Cancer patients and you'll see that the US is #1.

How would you feel if you job suddenly had a set salary and all those years at college to be paid the same. Doesn't matter how many patients you treat or if you even care about them. I don't have time to type out a 3 page report on this at the moment.