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  #1  
Old 10-27-2009, 06:48 PM
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starting problems- "fuseable link" melted?

I have been having quite a bit of work done on my LSi finally! I had the AWD transfer case re-done finally, that was an expensive proposition but now that is fixed and runs great. But I have also been having some intermittant starting problems. That is very aggravating!

So, the service dept replaced the ignition switch and ignition tumblers, both of which I needed. (at least I know I needed the tumblers, not sure about the ignition switch but I was game.) However, the starting problem remained and they have been having trouble tracking it down. So they ordered a new "fusible link" last week, a part he thought I needed and that he hoped might help them diagnose the problem. That part finally arrived and when they went to install it today, he said they discovered that where the fusible link goes into the fuse box had melted...(it had melted where the fusible link was attached to the main fuse block, I believe is how he described it.) He says there must have been an electrical problem at some time that caused this and he says the fuse box needs to be replaced, that this is likely what may be causing the car to not start at times. (When the car wont start, it is totally dead, not any clicking or anything. Can be hot or cold start attempt. Other times it starts right up.)

The service mgr said to replace the fuse box (or fuse block, I cant remember what he called it) is a $800 part when ordered new from Subaru ...He asked if I could help him try to locate a used one. He has been trying to find a used one for me but hasn't found one yet.

Can anyone help me with this?
- First of all, I dont know what the heck he is talking about (I am not a mechanic as you have probably guessed.)
- Secondly, does what he says make any sense (as I have tried to explain it?)
-And thirdly, is the fuse box or fuse block a part that can be found used rather than having to buy new?

thanks for any help or advice. I value all the help I get from this forum, always it is most appreciated!

Last edited by Bailey; 10-27-2009 at 06:55 PM.
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  #2  
Old 10-27-2009, 08:40 PM
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SoCal LS-L SoCal LS-L is offline
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Re: starting problems- "fuseable link" melted?

Bosch relay mod candidate people? I hope these guys already switched out your starter relay, and bench tested the starter, and tested the neutral start switch before condemning you to the labor hell of replacing an entire fuse block......
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  #3  
Old 10-27-2009, 08:59 PM
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Re: starting problems- "fuseable link" melted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey View Post
I have been having quite a bit of work done on my LSi finally! I had the AWD transfer case re-done finally, that was an expensive proposition but now that is fixed and runs great. But I have also been having some intermittant starting problems. That is very aggravating!
This is all rather strange. Please advise exactly what other work was carried out by the same shop.

Quote:
So, the service dept replaced the ignition switch and ignition tumblers, both of which I needed. (at least I know I needed the tumblers, not sure about the ignition switch but I was game.) However, the starting problem remained and they have been having trouble tracking it down.
How could anyone "think" a fusible link was required. This is an item very easily examined and checked. Strange that the damaged fuse board was not visible, when the link was looked at in order for the thoughts to be thought.

Quote:
So they ordered a new "fusible link" last week, a part he thought I needed and that he hoped might help them diagnose the problem. That part finally arrived and when they went to install it today, he said they discovered that where the fusible link goes into the fuse box had melted...(it had melted where the fusible link was attached to the main fuse block, I believe is how he described it.)
I gather that the car was out of action while a replacement link was obtained. Otherwise the plot thickens. Please advise.

Quote:
He says there must have been an electrical problem at some time that caused this and he says the fuse box needs to be replaced, that this is likely what may be causing the car to not start at times. (When the car wont start, it is totally dead, not any clicking or anything. Can be hot or cold start attempt. Other times it starts right up.)
Possible, if an associated connection within the fuse box was intermittent, due to the melted fuse box.

Quote:
The service mgr said to replace the fuse box (or fuse block, I cant remember what he called it) is a $800 part when ordered new from Subaru ...He asked if I could help him try to locate a used one. He has been trying to find a used one for me but hasn't found one yet.
There must be someone here with a parts car who can save you a mint. A second hand item should be practically as good as one at $800.00. Problem is you have disclosed a price. Bugger all demand for this component. Say no more than $50.00

Quote:
Can anyone help me with this?
- First of all, I dont know what the heck he is talking about (I am not a mechanic as you have probably guessed.)
- Secondly, does what he says make any sense (as I have tried to explain it?)
-And thirdly, is the fuse box or fuse block a part that can be found used rather than having to buy new?

thanks for any help or advice. I value all the help I get from this forum, always it is most appreciated!
"Fuse box or fuse block" Spot on, not a problem. If you wish to get all fussy and proper, a box has a cover, a block is naked.

At this stage things look suspicious. Please provide more detail. Blowing a FL takes some doing, e.g. a spanner in the works.
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  #4  
Old 10-27-2009, 09:04 PM
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Re: starting problems- "fuseable link" melted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal LS-L View Post
Bosch relay mod candidate people? I hope these guys already switched out your starter relay, and bench tested the starter, and tested the neutral start switch before condemning you to the labor hell of replacing an entire fuse block......
I do not miss much.

For very good reason, the text included, ---- "(When the car wont start, it is totally dead, not any clicking or anything. Can be hot or cold start attempt. Other times it starts right up.)"
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  #5  
Old 10-27-2009, 10:14 PM
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Re: starting problems- "fuseable link" melted?

DEFINITELY replace the 10$ 5-pin bosch relay under the dash. Especially if when you turn the key, the dash warnings light up, and the electrical system behaves... but sometimes (in my case, increasingly frequently, until it was pretty much every time...) the starter just doesn't work. It isn't the starter, necessarily, though.

I just did it this weekend on mine. it seems to have improved things. I haven't put it on the road much due to waiting on another slight bit... but it cranks over much easier from what I can tell.

A 10$ relay, and a back-bend position for a while to get your head and arms under the dash...

as you are looking up from the floor, it is WAY up there, to the right side of the steering column. Not actually on the column, but a black box bolted to a black steel support that holds the steering column, above a bunch of black-wrapped wires... so it might be hard to see at first.

I had to identify it's location by tracing it's wires, which have a big paper label on them, way up under the gauges.

I didn't even bother un-bolting the old relay. It is tight, both in torque, and in hard to reach with any wrench. I just un-plugged the wiring jumper at both ends, fitted the new relay to the black plug, and plugged the white plug back into it's place near where the wiring comes through the firewall behind the dash. A little zip tie to just snug the relay wiring to the other wiring around the area, to avoid knocking around... and good to go.

I had the suede knee panel, and the steel liner behind that off, because I was working on the steering column otherwise, but that might not even be necessary to duck under there.

I would definitely do that FAR before putting a new fuse box in the car, unless it can be seen that electrical contacts are damaged in the fuse box that is already in the car.

With as hot as it gets under the hood, plus the heat of a "fusible link" burning out... it may just be a little melted plastic. the Fusible link is supposed to protect the actual electrical parts from getting burned, by sacrificing itself. The above comment is right... usually that is caused by a short circuit or something...

PM me if there is anything I can do. I got the info from another thread around here, but I am in the central Iowa area.
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Last edited by BoxerFanatic; 10-27-2009 at 10:26 PM.
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  #6  
Old 10-27-2009, 10:25 PM
oab_au oab_au is offline
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Re: starting problems- "fuseable link" melted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey View Post
That part finally arrived and when they went to install it today, he said they discovered that where the fusible link goes into the fuse box had melted...(it had melted where the fusible link was attached to the main fuse block, I believe is how he described it.)

Can anyone help me with this?
- First of all, I dont know what the heck he is talking about (I am not a mechanic as you have probably guessed.)
- Secondly, does what he says make any sense (as I have tried to explain it?)
-And thirdly, is the fuse box or fuse block a part that can be found used rather than having to buy new?

thanks for any help or advice. I value all the help I get from this forum, always it is most appreciated!
I would say that he is right.

The link may not have been plugged in properly at some time in the past, causing a resistance that just got worst with time, till it burnt out completely.
So first.. He is right.
Second ..Yes it does.
Third..Yes some body will have one to sell.

Harvey.
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  #7  
Old 10-28-2009, 04:07 AM
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Re: starting problems- "fuseable link" melted?

I am printing off your suggestions and will go over these with the service mgr today, especially the starter relay. As for when I turn the key, absolutely nothing happens, no lights on the dash, no sound, nothing. I will get more details from him as to what all they have checked. I dont think he was guessing about me needing the fusible link, but if your fusible link goes, would it create an "intermittant" starting problem?

I do know I had him check the the component that does not allow the car to start if it is in gear (I dont know what that is called.) He had a name for it, he checked it and reported it tested fine.

Also not sure why the melting on the fuse box would not have been visible before now, unless they didn't remove the old fusible link until the new one came in, and when they did do the swap, they saw the melted area? have no idea, I am just guessing. Am worried about what may have damaged the fusible link to begin with - possibly a short somewhere.

HISTORY: In the order of repairs it has gone like this: (I have always had my local Subaru dealer do the work on it, as the car was purchased new from them 15 years ago and has had 3 local owners before me. ) Replaced the MAF about a year and a half ago after experiencing all the text book MAF symptons, I purchased a used one from the forum here and after it was installed, everything was fine. (This probably is in no way related, but thought I should mention it.) Also, the AWD binding had gotten very very bad about that same time, so I put the FWD fuse in but drove it very little and it mainly stayed in my garage for several months while I got my cash together for that large repair. Around this same time that I garaged it, the car developed its starting problem. A month ago, we had to jump start it to drive it to the shop for the AWD binding repairs. (Sometimes jumping it works, other times it does not work.) When I left it with the dealer for the new AWD transfer clutches, I asked them to also diagnose the starting problem...he fixed the AWD transfer clutches, and they thought it was the the ignition switch that was causing the starting problem so they replaced that. I picked up the car and thought it was fine. I drove it for 2 weeks with no problems whatsoever, was super happy to have my car back and running great, then suddenly one day I parked in front of a store and when I came out 20 minutes later, the car was dead. Totally dead. It would not take a jump or anything. I had it put on a flatbed and taken back to the dealer where it has been since that day about a week and a half ago.

I really love this car, ( strange that I would love a car this much since I have never been into cars but you know how SVX's are) ... but I have actually toyed with the idea of selling it for these reasons, that repairs are expensive and I cant do them myself. this one is really bumming me out and I really appreciate your help.

As I type this, I am waiting to have a new windshield installed since my old one cracked. I got a bronze aftermarket with no molding. (no others available.) So not sure how that is going to go either. That fix has to happen after this one, if we can ever figure this one out.

Also, thank you for putting up with this long post and with me not knowing the proper terms for things, etc. SVX not good car to drive if you are not mechanically-inclined.

Last edited by Bailey; 10-28-2009 at 05:10 AM.
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Old 10-28-2009, 05:04 AM
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Re: starting problems- "fuseable link" melted?

Quote:
(When the car wont start, it is totally dead, not any clicking or anything. Can be hot or cold start attempt. Other times it starts right up.)
I suggest checking the electrical connections at the battery if they have not already done so.
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Last edited by michael; 10-28-2009 at 05:07 AM.
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:29 AM
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Re: starting problems- "fuseable link" melted?

Based on your comments and those of the board, there is one potential low cost solution that hasn't been mentioned. It has happened to me on other cars. Have them add an additional engine to chassis ground strap and check the battery ground at the starter The battery ground was removed when they removed the transmission and if the connection is not clean and tight will give you no voltage to many electrical systems. If the engine block is not grounded to the chassis you will have no voltage to many systems.
I would, if they haven't,
1. Add an engine to chassis ground.
2. Remove and check the battery ground at the starter.
3. Check both battery cables at the battery.
A complete loss of power to multiple systems and the problem being intermittant does not sound like a starter, a starter relay, or a key switch. I think it is a grounding problem.
The fusible link is a very large wire and hard to make go bad. When mine blow it blew 10 fuses, 2 relays and damaged the ABS controller, the transmission ECU and main ECU. I don't think that would be your problem.
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Old 10-28-2009, 11:55 AM
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Re: starting problems- "fuseable link" melted?

Wow, that sucks.

TexasSwift may be on to something there... My intermittent starting issue was a bit different, as the electrical system was fully active, but just not engaging the starter. If yours is dead, it might be something else, and a bad ground would make sense.

BTW, I think I saw, and was admiring your SVX when I was window-shopping at the dealer a couple weeks ago, bright red 94-95 SVX with tan interior and a bit of a crack in the windshield.

It is in very nice shape. I hope this problem gets resolved well. The windshield deal should be fine, as long as they are careful with the existing rubber trim, and re-apply it to the new glass. Probably old-hat to a pro glass installer.
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Old 10-29-2009, 05:19 AM
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Re: starting problems- "fuseable link" melted?

I will definitely suggest an engine to chassis ground, thank you for that idea.
This starting problem began before they did the transfer clutches. I cant clearly remember when it began, but was around the time I garaged my car awaiting my funds for the transfer clutch repair.

Boxerfanatic, that was definitely my car you saw. It is 94 Barcelona Red LSi sitting over at Ramsey Subaru. Windshield crack and all! Yes, it is a really nice car, has about 103,000 miles on it.

Here is what Corey , the service manager, says he has checked: all electrical connections at the battery, at the ignition cylinder, switch, column and fuse box. In looking at the fuse box, he said he cant tell if the electrical contacts are damaged or not, the melted plastic was at the base of the terminal where the fusible link attaches to the fuse box. He didnt want to put in fusible link if there are damaged contacts in the fuse box or it that terminal is damaged, thats why he thought installing a new or used undamaged fuse box might help. He is going to look at the starter relay today, but is in agreement my intermittant completely dead car does not sound like the starter relay.

Also, he said he can go ahead and put in the new fusible link and see what happens. I may have him do that tomorrow if we cant figure something out. but I suspect something else is causing this short.

Am I understanding that replacing the fuse box is labor-intensive? It sounds like I dont want to do that if I dont have to, I dont mind a $50 part but dont want to pay a bunch of labor charge if it is not going to fix the problem. I wish I was close to Toms shop or someone here on the forum who could help diagnose this!

Last edited by Bailey; 10-29-2009 at 05:27 AM.
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Old 10-29-2009, 05:23 AM
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Re: starting problems- "fuseable link" melted?

Bailey, when I first owned my car I had a melted fuseable link and it damaged the fuse box as well. I bought the assembly new on subaruparts.com and it was actually easy to replace. I believe it came with all of the fuses.
I think the part is affordable because I didn't hesitate buying it. I didn't have to mess with the wires either.

P/N 82232 on subaruparts.com (looks like after shipping it will be just over 200.00)
If I recall the assembly plugs into a few wire connectors underneath the box housing. So it's disconnect, swap-out, reconnect, done.
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Last edited by msvx95; 10-29-2009 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 10-29-2009, 05:45 AM
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Re: starting problems- "fuseable link" melted?

$200 sounds better than $800 for sure.
I'm just afraid there may be a short somewhere else...my thoughts keep going to the sound system in the car for some reason. I may have them check that out. My daughter had a nice sound unit put in during the period she was driving this car, maybe something faulty there.
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Old 10-29-2009, 03:36 PM
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Re: starting problems- "fuseable link" melted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey View Post
$200 sounds better than $800 for sure.
I'm just afraid there may be a short somewhere else...my thoughts keep going to the sound system in the car for some reason. I may have them check that out. My daughter had a nice sound unit put in during the period she was driving this car, maybe something faulty there.
Hi again, if it had a short, it would have blown the feasible link in the middle of it. It is burnt at the end where it connects to the fuse box terminal. This is from a bad or loose connection, when it was fitted at some time ago.

All the power that the car needs to start, except the high starter current flows, through this link. The resistance it has will get worse with the electrical load, so that it will pass current, at first ,then pass nothing when loaded.

The terminal in the box will need replacing, either with a new box or the terminal itself replaced.

All the best Harvey.
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Old 10-30-2009, 06:26 AM
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Re: starting problems- "fuseable link" melted?

ok, thanks!
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