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  #16  
Old 06-20-2001, 10:25 AM
1994SubaruSVX 1994SubaruSVX is offline
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i could not have answered better myself!

basically the zinc coating is cosmetic by just as lightning said it does prevent corrosion. i have never experience warping and i drive the hell out of my car. i autox it, do driver trainings, and even run it hard sometimes in my everyday driving. i thinking all this warping is from improper installs. just my .02
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1994 SVX, true dual Magnaflow exhaust, K&N filter, 17" Enkei RS6 wheels, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 225/45/17 rubber, zinc plated cross-drilled rotors with yellow painted brake calipers. B&M tranny cooler rated at 19,000 GVW. GC springs and Koni strut inserts installed and the car is lowered two inches all the way around!!
"Too much fun to drive!"
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  #17  
Old 06-20-2001, 10:48 AM
lightning_8669
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i thinking all this warping is from improper installs

I think a sticky caliper will generate frightful amounts of heat. And it doesn't need to drag a whole lot either. Also not allowing them to cool between "panic" stops can overheat them. Another probable cause, improper torquing of wheel lug nuts. As in unequal torque or torqued out of pattern. (or both ) I now supply my lug wrench when having my tires removed for any reason at a service center and inform them that this is the tool to use to tighten the wheel lugs. They give me a funny look but either use it or a torque wrench.
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  #18  
Old 06-20-2001, 12:04 PM
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Re: i thinking all this warping is from improper installs

Quote:
Originally posted by lightning_8669
I now supply my lug wrench when having my tires removed for any reason at a service center and inform them that this is the tool to use to tighten the wheel lugs. They give me a funny look but either use it or a torque wrench.
Heeheeeeee...If you supplied me with a wrench to put your lug nuts back on, you'd be shooed out the door in a New York minute, (or quicker). Same applies to all the shops I've worked in. I've seen customers put manuals in the car with the section they *think* the tech should read bookmarked. Funny thing is...the car never got worked on.

I don't go into a restaurant and tell the chef how to cook, I just assume he's done it before. And if I get a bad meal, I gripe at management about it.
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  #19  
Old 06-20-2001, 12:16 PM
lightning_8669
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Heeheeeeee...

Yeah, that's what I was doing that night in the rain trying to remove a flat that was torqued on to something like 250 Ft Lbs by the "management". Maybe I should have invited the knowledgeable mechanic out so he could stand in the rain with me while I beat his head all soft and mushy with the factory supplied wrench I also don't talk to "managers" anymore, I go for a district VP or the owner of the restaraunt that burned my food.

An inpact wrench is a wonderful invention. But tell me honestly how many people do you know that can operate one properly? I doubt you'll have to take that second hand out of your pocket except maybe to scratch your head.
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  #20  
Old 06-20-2001, 12:23 PM
1994SubaruSVX 1994SubaruSVX is offline
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oooooohhh......harsh.....watch out for...

the lightning bolts raining down on you eddycat! but i do understand what he is saying. it is not that we dont necessarily trust the mechanic we just know that he is probably doing more than one task at a time. we are simply trying to not only remind him of the importance of whatever he is doing but also show him how important it is to us. it is not a knock on ability, more of concentration and taking into consideration our priorities and the personal importance to us. understand eddy......
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1994 SVX, true dual Magnaflow exhaust, K&N filter, 17" Enkei RS6 wheels, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 225/45/17 rubber, zinc plated cross-drilled rotors with yellow painted brake calipers. B&M tranny cooler rated at 19,000 GVW. GC springs and Koni strut inserts installed and the car is lowered two inches all the way around!!
"Too much fun to drive!"
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  #21  
Old 06-20-2001, 12:37 PM
lightning_8669
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trust the mechanic

Maybe I need to clarify. I have consistently seen mechanics do the wrong thing. Namely, Mr. Goodwrench taking his trusty impact driver to the lugs on a Metro the same way he did on a Cadillac. And if the highly trained mechanic (the same one who has had to rework repairs on my car SEVERAL times) is so damned proficient with an impact wrench why doesn't he use it to torque heads? Rims and rotors are made from the same materials as heads and (on some engines) blocks. But are made of much thinner portions and as likely, if not more likley, to warp from mis-torquing. You want to take them off with an impact wrench be my guest. You want to put them back on with one and I'll see you on the side of the highway in the rain some night with a tire iron in my hand.

There is a time and place for everything, including the use of tools.
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  #22  
Old 06-20-2001, 01:46 PM
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Re: oooooohhh......harsh.....watch out for...

Quote:
Originally posted by 1994SubaruSVX
the lightning bolts raining down on you eddycat! but i do understand what he is saying. it is not that we dont necessarily trust the mechanic we just know that he is probably doing more than one task at a time. we are simply trying to not only remind him of the importance of whatever he is doing but also show him how important it is to us. it is not a knock on ability, more of concentration and taking into consideration our priorities and the personal importance to us. understand eddy......
Well said. Very diplomatic! And considering I didn't even own a torque wrench until my 15th year or so as a mechanic...kinda funny to me. The only reason I bought one was when the heads were bolted on using the torque to yield specs. Up until that time I had torqued 1600 & 1800 heads by feel, and I have seen engines come back in later for other work that were purring like my Eddy and not a drip out of them.

It's funny, I bet I hear more horror stories on the various boards I've been on than I heard in them twenty years. Reason? I once asked a customer how his car was running after I had rebuilt the engine...he replied "It's never run this good before!" Did he write a nice little note to the dealer or get on a website and say I was an amazing mechanic....nope. It's a well documented fact that people that have been the victims of poor service are way more vocal than those that get wonderful service.

I do have here somewhere a letter that someone wrote to SOA telling them that he had been to several dealers and I was the only one that knew what was wrong with his car and that I fixed it properly and in a timely fashion. Let's see, that's one letter out of twenty years of fixin' Subaru's...not good. (There were a *few* others, but i've lost them over the years.)
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  #23  
Old 06-20-2001, 02:01 PM
lightning_8669
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by feel

The true design of a fastener has a "torque value". This is the value calculated by engineering and is quite accurate. But the best way is to tighten a fastener by hand and "feel" when the threads do their work. I shocked some engineers one day when I told them that I would prefer the mechanic working on my car to under torque all the hardware rather than over torque it. Why? Because if it is under tightened it has the ability to warn you that it is loosening (rattle, shudder, etc.) where as if it is over tightened then the fastener fails outright and off goes the wheel. I've seen examples of failures due to over torquing including broken aircraft engine crank shafts, broken bicycle axle, and a wheel from my friends work truck falling off (luckily) in his driveway.


"BRAAAAAAAPPPPPP!!!! "That wheel ain't comin' off!" I hear that and I get a very strong urge to grab my tire iron and adjust someone's brain case. It ain't distraction, it ain't multi-tasking it *is* stupid, unnecessary and dangerous.
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  #24  
Old 06-20-2001, 02:26 PM
1994SubaruSVX 1994SubaruSVX is offline
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remind me to stay away from you ......

when you are using hand tools! but i understand you concern lightening. your car is the second largest investment you make in a lifetime and you want to do what is in your power to protect it. eddy i actually have a general mechanic here local that does a good job for me. they are fair, do what i ask them to do, do not (to my knowledge, so far) take short cuts, and are generally kind to me when i am in the office. i make a point everytime i pay them for work to thank them for a job well done. i also comment when i go back for new repairs on how good they did on previous repairs. but they are not a suby dealer. most of the time on this site we are talking about suby dealers. i have never had a good experience at my suby dealer. everytime i take the car to them they either dont know what the hell i am talking about, dont believe me, order the wrong part, or worst of all they break something else. ask aredub what the did to the boot on the top of my alternator! apparently it cracked or they broke it. instead of replacing it they just took some silicon and gobbed it on top of the connection the boot was supposed to cover. so now i got this big glob of red silicon mess, very professional. not to mention the flywheel bolt they sheared, the exhaust bolt the left out, the transmission bolt they left off, the window tint they scratched to hell, and the seat levers the managed to break and not tell me about. the only way i would have even known about the levers is i saw the silicon he tried to patch it with. that kind of stuff is just frustrating. that is why i only take my car to them when there is motor problems. for all other repairs i go to my general mechanic.
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1994 SVX, true dual Magnaflow exhaust, K&N filter, 17" Enkei RS6 wheels, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 225/45/17 rubber, zinc plated cross-drilled rotors with yellow painted brake calipers. B&M tranny cooler rated at 19,000 GVW. GC springs and Koni strut inserts installed and the car is lowered two inches all the way around!!
"Too much fun to drive!"

Last edited by 1994SubaruSVX; 06-20-2001 at 02:29 PM.
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  #25  
Old 06-20-2001, 02:43 PM
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Re: zinc treatment

Quote:
Originally posted by lightning_8669
This may be a bit premature but.... I have a heat treat supplier that performs a process known as "atmospheric nitro-carburizing" on ferrous metals. The process is followed by a molten "salt" quench which oxidizes the surface of the material. The atmospheric portion hardens the surface and the temperatures used are non-critical. What this means is that the substrate material is not annealed. There are several benifits to this process over plating processes. First, the surface is hardened to a shallow case of Rockwell 52-55 on the C scale. Second, the salt quench yields a salt spray corrosion resistance in excess of 200 hours (Zinc is 70-75 hours, if I recall correctly. If I don't I'm sure someone will correct me ) Thirdly, the surface is very abrasion ressistant. By very what I mean is the rotors *don't* wear. I can have this process performed for a similar cost to "freezing" the rotors. The parts must be clean of rust and plating for the process to work.

If anyone is interested in this process let me know and we can do some experimenting.
If I were to buy a set of stock rotors, how much would it cost to have this done?
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  #26  
Old 06-20-2001, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tjpops
Now that you've all helped me with transmission issues - it's time for my next conquest - brakes! My front rotors are warped and I'm led to believe this is another weak spot (at least on my '92). I'd appreciate knowing how you folks are dealing with this. Are you replacing with stock rotors or does anyone have experience / advise re: 3rd party rotors that stand up better?

Look forward to your replies!
If you're just looking to replace and not necessarily upgrade, try an autoparts store that stocks Raybestos parts. I have Raybestos pads and rotors in the rear and pads in the front. They make a little bit of noise once in awhile, but they're cheaper than Subaru parts.

Just stay away from the $14.99 pad sets. They're just not worth it.
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  #27  
Old 06-20-2001, 09:08 PM
tober76b
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just so that i'm sure, please clarify

Quote:
Originally posted by 1994SubaruSVX
basically the zinc coating is cosmetic by just as lightning said it does prevent corrosion. i have never experience warping and i drive the hell out of my car. i autox it, do driver trainings, and even run it hard sometimes in my everyday driving. i thinking all this warping is from improper installs. just my .02
1994SubaruSVX:
so are you're saying that even before you got your new rotors, you didn't experience warping while autoxing and driving with zest?
i believe that how the lugs are torqued definitely comes into play.
thanks.
toby
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  #28  
Old 06-20-2001, 09:17 PM
tober76b
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Quote:
Originally posted by lightning_8669
<<how long does a zinc-plated rotor normally keep it's appearance? >>

That depends where you live. In Wisconsin, where we salt the hell out of the roads in winter, about 28 minutes.

<<can you re-plated it after it's been plated before? >>

Yes. But all old plating and rust must be removed first.

<<what is the benefit of zinc? (higher heat tolerance, improved appearance, or both) >>

Zinc resists corrosion and helps keekp the air passages clean. This allows them to cool the rotors more effectively. And it does make them look cool
thanks for your input lightning....it cleared up my assumptions quite nicely.
what is the 'freezing' process you referred to earlier in your "atmospheric nitro-carburizing" post?
toby
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  #29  
Old 06-21-2001, 05:47 AM
lightning_8669
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cost to have this done?

I could probably have a set of rotors done for around $90-$100. But you may want to experiment with an old, stabalized set first. One concern worth mentioning is once they are treated it may be hard or impossible to have them turned.

After processing the parts are a flat black to a dark gray. If you mangage to penetrate the processed layer that is the only part that will corrode. Not like paint or plating that will retain water and form blisters. I've recommended this process to a lot of peopele in manufacturing. It has some very nice features; dimensnionally inert, high corrosion resistance, good aesthetics, good wear resistance and so on.

The reason I suggest experimenting is I know the rotors will not rust for a long time but I don't know what pad compound will work best with this treatment. If it turns out to be something other members would like to try the price would become more reasonable with the more sets of rotors being done. There is a type of minimum charge to be met.

I'll make some phone calls over the next couple of days and try and post something under the technical heading.
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  #30  
Old 06-21-2001, 06:00 AM
lightning_8669
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'freezing' process

Freezing is a reference to cryogenic processing. Basically the parts are dunked in a very cold liquid (Nitrogen) and allowed to stabalize at that temp for a period of time. The science is that this "sets" the crystaline structure of the metal's molecules. Metal is sort of like wood that you can adjust the grain in for lack of a better analogy. I haven't had much experience with the process to be very knowlegeable on it but have heard of people freezing golf clubs, rotors and other stuff in the interest of getting the metal to "behave" better. I probably should read up on the process in case I come across a client with a need.
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