Engine Build Progress and Questions - Page 9

cdigerlando · #**121** 07-05-2007, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Same thing that happened to me... Except my debris broke the rings too and made the car unriveable... I was lucky that it didn't score the cylinder walls either

Tom

Well, I had to coax the flake out. It was just in there flush. Just looked like two little cracks. Didn't do anything to my walls either. The leak was more damaging, but should be fine after some honing.

I compared the land to the land on the new CP piston. That is where the gas groove is

Hope this helps reduce the cracking. That and the piston is forged. It's a bit over my head.

longassname · #**122** 07-05-2007, 10:05 PM

Look at the washers on the bolts that hold your block halves together a little more closely. They are seals too. If you tried using studs instead of bolts your seals wouldn't work.

It sounds like your engine had water in it instead of coolant. Is it ok? With corroded bolts and all that it's sounding a little scary. None of the engines I've taken appart have had corrosion.

cdigerlando · #**123** 07-06-2007, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longassname

Look at the washers on the bolts that hold your block halves together a little more closely. They are seals too. If you tried using studs instead of bolts your seals wouldn't work.

It sounds like your engine had water in it instead of coolant. Is it ok? With corroded bolts and all that it's sounding a little scary. None of the engines I've taken appart have had corrosion.

Good point about the seals. Wouldn't want coolant leaks into the bearings!

Yes. I had flushed the system prior to it sitting for a while. Fortunately there is not much that the water touches that is steel in the very bottom of the block. The water pump impeller and a few of the bottom bolts look like crap. I've since changed out the radiator, so no problems there. I will probably also change out the heater core just to make sure there is no debris floating through the system.

On another subject, I will be looking to clean the blocks and heads locally. Looking to have my valves removed, the heads pressure tested then cold tanked and magnafluxed to check for cracks. Will also clean and have the block MF inspected. Once I know that the heads and block are worth using I would like to work with you and your miami connection to do the machine work. I'll try to hurry.

longassname · #**124** 07-06-2007, 06:49 PM

my heads have been dropped off for flow testing and porting.

cdigerlando · #**125** 07-07-2007, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longassname

my heads have been dropped off for flow testing and porting.

Awesome. Are you also having the new valves and cams installed? Are you going to take some pics?

longassname · #**126** 07-07-2007, 09:46 AM

As soon as the new valves come in I will drop them and the cams off there too. They will be using the cams rather than a fixture for opening the valves during flow testing.

I'm sure I'll take pics when they are done. I won't be there while it's being done (kind of the whole point of having someone else do it).

I have a different shop that surfaces the heads and installs the valves when the porting is done. I'll be doing the engine assembly myself.

Oh by the way, discussed the cometic gaskets with some people I trust and they have good experiences with them. So if you are still wanting metal gaskets I can at least say I've heard good things about the cometic 3 layer stainless gaskets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdigerlando

Awesome. Are you also having the new valves and cams installed? Are you going to take some pics?

cdigerlando · #**127** 07-09-2007, 11:24 AM

I received dimension sheets from ARP for bearing main and head bolts. I'll make sure to mention the importance of seals, or perhaps planning to use stock seals. I believe they can provide them as well. If if anyone is interested in a group purchase, please let me know and I will try to coordinate. Some folks may also just be interested in head bolts.

longassname · #**128** 07-09-2007, 06:04 PM

Which series fasteners did you get quoted for? What did they quote them at? If others want them I can see if I can get them for you cheaper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdigerlando

I received dimension sheets from ARP for bearing main and head bolts. I'll make sure to mention the importance of seals, or perhaps planning to use stock seals. I believe they can provide them as well. If if anyone is interested in a group purchase, please let me know and I will try to coordinate. Some folks may also just be interested in head bolts.

cdigerlando · #**129** 07-10-2007, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longassname

Which series fasteners did you get quoted for? What did they quote them at? If others want them I can see if I can get them for you cheaper.

No quotes yet. Right now I've just taken all of the measurments that they requested and I'm to fax them to see if it is something that they stock. As for 1/2 of the head bolts, they are the same as the 2.2 liter head bolts so that should not be an issue. The other half are different and may have to be custom produced. Also there is the option of using new fasters for the bearings. This also includes the issue you raised regarding the importance of sealing, which I will ask them about.

As far as quotes go, I'm sure that would depend on quantity. If we had a group buy it would make it cheaper. If you would prefer to source them I can forward you the pdf they sent me with thier specification request. I took measurements, which I could fax to you, but I'm sure you would want to check them.

longassname · #**130** 07-10-2007, 01:44 PM

Turns out being horizontally opposed the new pistons/rods counter ballance each other so the internal ballancing of the crank is fine. All we have to do is regrind both the pins and the mains. I'm keeping the crank price at $400 but including the rod bearings now.

TomsSVX · #**131** 07-10-2007, 02:11 PM

so you are suggesting that the crank does not need to be balanced... this would be good news for me

tom

longassname · #**132** 07-10-2007, 06:36 PM

Correct, but if you are going to try to use your crank without getting it machined you will need to take getting your oil clearances right very seriously. Without a very acurate bore gage and outside micrometer you are going to need to do a bunch of trial and error bearing installation. You'll have to get two sets of acl bearings..both the standards and the ones with 1 thousandth more oil clearance, use plastigage, and switch out and rearrange your bearings to get the right oil clearances. You'll have to do the same with the mains which will really be a **** since it means assembling and reassembling the block an extra time or two. It is doable though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

so you are suggesting that the crank does not need to be balanced... this would be good news for me

tom

cdigerlando · #**133** 07-11-2007, 11:23 AM

So for the layperson shade tree mechanic like myself, I would want the crank machined true round, both the mains and the pins, then check the diameters achieved, or shoot for a diameter, if possible, to match either a standard size bearing or a slightly oversized bearing to account for the material removed to true the bearing, and achieve a desired oil clearance. In the case of the rod pins providing for 0.0018" of clearance between the bearing and the pin. Sounds like the machine shop needs to do more than just grind it true. Then when this is all done just balance the crank, after verifying that the bearings can all be installed without a hitch. It almost sounds easier just to assume a slightly oversize bearing is needed, then machine the crank to match, following up immediately with a crank balance. Or check all of the crank pin and main dimensions first to determine if grinding could get the crank to the high end of the clearance spec for the standard bearing. Does this sound right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by longassname

Correct, but if you are going to try to use your crank without getting it machined you will need to take getting your oil clearances right very seriously. Without a very acurate bore gage and outside micrometer you are going to need to do a bunch of trial and error bearing installation. You'll have to get two sets of acl bearings..both the standards and the ones with 1 thousandth more oil clearance, use plastigage, and switch out and rearrange your bearings to get the right oil clearances. You'll have to do the same with the mains which will really be a **** since it means assembling and reassembling the block an extra time or two. It is doable though.

longassname · #**134** 07-11-2007, 11:46 AM

The last part sounds right. The journals will most likely be round if it is in good shape without any bearing failures or scratching. The problem is the factory oil clearances can not be assumed to be good. In fact they can be assumed to be bad. Some of them will be too tight. What I'm doing is getting the cranks ground to more precise tollerances. Instead of the 1 thousanth range in the final size the factory shot for we are shooting for a 1 ten thousandth range and the particular crank shop I am using is good enough to actually do that. Also aluminium bearings are bored so their tollerances are MUCH tigher than tri-metal bearings. With the tight tollerances in both the journals and the bearings we can achieve the desired oil clearances.

If you are going through me for the crank work you don't have to worry about it. The crank shop will know what to do because they are working with me. They don't even want to/wont talk to you. You just send it to them, they send it back to you, and I send you the bearings to match what they did.

If you are trying to get away with not getting your crank machined then you have to have the selection of bearings on hand and do the trial and error assembly I described to Tom to get acceptable oil clearances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdigerlando

So for the layperson shade tree mechanic like myself, I would want the crank machined true round, both the mains and the pins, then check the diameters achieved, or shoot for a diameter, if possible, to match either a standard size bearing or a slightly oversized bearing to account for the material removed to true the bearing, and achieve a desired oil clearance. In the case of the rod pins providing for 0.0018" of clearance between the bearing and the pin. Sounds like the machine shop needs to do more than just grind it true. Then when this is all done just balance the crank, after verifying that the bearings can all be installed without a hitch. It almost sounds easier just to assume a slightly oversize bearing is needed, then machine the crank to match, following up immediately with a crank balance. Or check all of the crank pin and main dimensions first to determine if grinding could get the crank to the high end of the clearance spec for the standard bearing. Does this sound right?

cdigerlando · #**135** 07-11-2007, 12:29 PM

Sorry to be so confusing. It sounds like your shop will do the machining and the balancing. All I need to do is send them the crank after paying you. Will they also be machining the mains? Can we get these done and purchase the new bearings for those through you as well? Will they do the assembly of the rods to the crank as well? What RPM are they going to balance to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by longassname

The last part sounds right. The journals will most likely be round if it is in good shape without any bearing failures or scratching. The problem is the factory oil clearances can not be assumed to be good. In fact they can be assumed to be bad. Some of them will be too tight. What I'm doing is getting the cranks ground to more precise tollerances. Instead of the 1 thousanth range in the final size the factory shot for we are shooting for a 1 ten thousandth range and the particular crank shop I am using is good enough to actually do that. Also aluminium bearings are bored so their tollerances are MUCH tigher than tri-metal bearings. With the tight tollerances in both the journals and the bearings we can achieve the desired oil clearances.

If you are going through me for the crank work you don't have to worry about it. The crank shop will know what to do because they are working with me. They don't even want to/wont talk to you. You just send it to them, they send it back to you, and I send you the bearings to match what they did.

If you are trying to get away with not getting your crank machined then you have to have the selection of bearings on hand and do the trial and error assembly I described to Tom to get acceptable oil clearances.