SMALL single turbo project, thoughts welcome! - Page 3

ZephTheChef · #31 11-07-2010, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

You get what you pay for.

Tom

The problem is, you all too often pay for it and don't 'get' it. I've tried things both ways...throwing lots of money at the "right" parts...and quite frankly I've personally had not only better luck, but learned more, spent less, and had more fun doing things as cheaply as I can.

My $500 budget sounds ridiculous and likely is. I'll probably spend at least double that on turbo-related goodies in the end. But I'm not going to spend $1500-2000 on engine management, sensors, and goodies that won't give me as sophisticated a tuning system as the stock ECU...and I'm also not going to spend $3,000 performance-building an engine that hasn't failed yet, and that I haven't personally verified the weak points of.

TomsSVX · #32 11-07-2010, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZephTheChef

Tom, you've been around these cars for a long time. I respect your opinion and input. Let me clarify that I've been VERY guilty of leaving out details that I considered obvious. The thing that I'm getting the most criticism about is the budget. Allow me to clarify what I have and haven't considered in that budget.

A whole lot of the reason this build is possible, on the budget that I'm working with, is that I have a TON of parts just laying around already from other projects. I've had a dozen or so 3000GTs and Stealths, and many others I've worked on for friends...lots of turbo related parts have piled up over the years. I have oil coolers galore, and I had considered that a given with this project, which is why I didn't mention it. I have intercoolers laying around, I have lots of leftover exhaust-fab materials, I have everything I need for the fuel system already in my possession, as leftovers from other projects. I have spare EGT and wideband gauges and sensors just sitting around doing nothing, etc. In other words, the $500 budget is basically for the things I do not already have, and it's just for the turbo-related stuff.

I'm not counting the clutch, driveshaft extension that I'll no doubt need, or other miscellaneous service I'll be doing in the process. I re-iterate, I do know what I'm doing and have put a lot of thought into this build that I haven't necessarily discussed here. All the same, I'm appreciative that you brought it up. As far as engine management goes, as I said, I've ordered a stage1 from LAN, with the older-style board. I've already written ROMs for this project, and will be comparing them to the tunes he has used to see if I'm at least on the right path. I have quite a bit of experience tuning forced induction cars, and a little experience with direct ECU tuning. With access to the fuel and timing maps, anything goes.

I don't have it ALL figured out, and that's what this thread is really for. For me to organize my thoughts as I go along, and seek input from the more experienced SVXers such as yourself. Truth be told I'm nowhere near far enough into this project to know what it's going to cost, and I'm willing to go severely over budget to get it done "right". I put that word in quotes because my standard of doing it right may not be up to par with some others. All I'm concerned with is: will it work, and hold up for at least a few years? Because within that time-frame, I'm bored and re-doing it anyway.

Away you go! Too many times have I seen people pick up a car... Tell everyone they are gonna throw a couple hundred into a turbo... Then find out how much work the car needs just to run... End up parting it out to make some of their investment back.

I wish you luck with the build and using the stock ECM core for tuning. Unfortunately w/o the ability to real-time tune (unless you are going this route) trial and error can land some serious damage if you are not more than careful. I went through a lot of research of using the stock ECM and doing trial&error tuning. I opted for investing my time and money into a much more capable EMS. Granted my input into Hydra was not only for myself, it was still the best option.

Tom

ZephTheChef · #33 11-07-2010, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Unfortunately w/o the ability to real-time tune (unless you are going this route) trial and error can land some serious damage if you are not more than careful. I went through a lot of research of using the stock ECM and doing trial&error tuning.

E85 has an incredible safety margin, so long as you stay rich. The danger with E85 (as with gasoline, but detonation usually occurs before you get to that point on gasoline) becomes cylinder temps as you get leaner. In my experience, there's no power to be had lean of about 12.2 on E85 anyway...so I'll be starting a bit rich of that and leaning to it if everything seems to be going smoothly. Tuning for cruise is actually going to be the trickier part, lol.

I will not initially have real-time tuning capability, however I'm going to look into it as things progress. It would not add that much expense in the future to get the ostrich, complete with socket-booster if necessary. Particularly considering I'd be able to use it on my Q45, and potentially other cars as well. I've never had one myself, but I've played around with a friend's. Presumably I could then be logging with evoscan and live-tuning, all from my laptop.

ZephTheChef · #34 11-07-2010, 09:13 PM

Ok, well this thread got me motivated to work on the car. A little too motivated probably, lol. I stripped the intake stuff off, pulled the stock fuel system off, took the exhaust off, and am now getting serious about planning out the turbo fab stuff. I realize this is completely backwards and that I should be working on the 5-speed conversion and get it up and running first...but this is the part I'm excited about and thus is what I'll be most productive at right now, lol.

I've got some interesting ideas that you guys probably haven't seen before, and some that you probably have. We'll save that for when I've got a camera and am actually fabbing stuff up though. I'm all about surprises

At this point, I'm kind of torn between the "standard" mounting position (you know the one...passenger rear of the engine bay) and a surprise alternative, in a more subtle location. I tend to be the kind of person to prefer the sleeper-style turbo installs.

Well, I'm going to go finish pulling the exhaust off...got one bolt left to finish cutting...had a bit of an incident with a runaway grinder, so I took a break to clean my wounds. Safety first! Glad I got that reminder wound at the start of the project so I can be sure to take better care of myself for the rest of it.

sd2649 · #35 11-07-2010, 09:19 PM

Sounds awesome. Pics as you can get them. Oh, please explain "shaved" intake manifold???

ZephTheChef · #36 11-07-2010, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sd2649

Oh, please explain "shaved" intake manifold???

I was going to polish it, but got tired/bored, so I ended up powdercoating. What I mean by "shaved" is that I ground down the lines on each side to make it a smooth surface.

ZephTheChef · #37 11-08-2010, 05:34 PM

Muhaha, this is going to be too easy. I've decided to go with a stealthy install. Should be fun...however, the SVX is on the back burner again. I'll be doing things here and there, but Christmas is gonna put a hurting on the pocketbook, so it's going to slow things down. My fuel setup should be mostly finished this week, I'll post some pics when it is.

Myxalplyx · #38 11-08-2010, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZephTheChef

Muhaha, this is going to be too easy. I've decided to go with a stealthy install. Should be fun...however, the SVX is on the back burner again. I'll be doing things here and there, but Christmas is gonna put a hurting on the pocketbook, so it's going to slow things down. My fuel setup should be mostly finished this week, I'll post some pics when it is.

Xmas? Hurting your pocketbook? *sigh* This was a budget build. Cheap! Now you built us all up only to make us wait until after xmas before you get started? You suck!

I'm outta here!

Gamesy · #39 11-09-2010, 02:33 AM

i've been contemplating doing a budget build too but so far i have LAN's Stage 2 setup already installed all thats left is fabbing the turbo piping and running the oil lines

ZephTheChef · #40 11-09-2010, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myxalplyx

Xmas? Hurting your pocketbook? *sigh* This was a budget build. Cheap! Now you built us all up only to make us wait until after xmas before you get started? You suck!

I'm outta here!

Lolz. Hold your horses. I've got some of the parts on the way. I'm actively shopping for what I don't have. The only thing that's probably going to be put off is the turbo itself...and no worries, I have plenty of junk TD05-14bs laying around for mock-up purposes. Basically the same external size, just a bit smaller compressor.

I'll be working on this...just not 8 hours at a time like I did the other day. My Q45 and VR-4 and SL and STS, and the pair of RT/TTs need lovin' too.

Don't know why I feel the need to so overload myself with projects...but I can just never seem to pass up an opportunity when the price is right.

ZephTheChef · #41 11-09-2010, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamesy

i've been contemplating doing a budget build too but so far i have LAN's Stage 2 setup already installed all thats left is fabbing the turbo piping and running the oil lines

I would absolutely turn this into a kit if it works out for me and there is interest. A cheap kit, lol. Like in the teens.

ZephTheChef · #42 11-09-2010, 04:23 PM

Ordered some goodies today. When it arrives, I should have everything I need to fab up the exhaust-side. The part that's going to add some complication to that part of the project is that with such a small turbo (you could easily run 2 of these on this engine) the outlet is only 2.5", and has relatively tight bolt clearance at that size...however, a single 2.5" pipe is going to put a bit of a choke on a 300+hp setup, so I've got to make a gradual transition to 3" pipe. The tricky part of that is that space is quite confined, and I'll need to have at least a couple inches of pipe straight out of the turbo before I put an elbow on it (for bolt clearance reasons). It's starting to look like a slightly larger turbo might be an easier option, but I'm firm in my choice, as I think the lag-free nature of this setup will just be too much fun.

I'm planning on 3 O2 sensor bungs, 2 to keep the stock sensors, and a 3rd after the two banks merge for a wideband. What I'll likely do is start with intercooler-wise, is just use a DSM side-mount intercooler placed in one side of the bumper, and build a fiberglass scoop to replace the splash guard, that will come down a little lower to force air through that region. That way I can prevent cutting a huge-nasty hole in the bumper, which I'd love to keep from doing so I can keep the car looking stock (to the untrained eye at least).

I'm also looking at a very slim front-mount option...it's potentially slim enough to stick in the front bumper with a crash-bar elimination. It's HUGE though. 33x17! I believe it's an OEM Volvo intercooler. It would be a chore making it fit, I'm sure. It's only 1 1/4" thick, so it wouldn't significantly impede airflow through the condenser and radiator. For the extra effort it would be, I think I'll just stick with the DSM intercooler plan. People always hate on side-mount intercoolers, but in every test I've actually seen done, they're usually one of the top-performers.

Johnybeas · #43 11-09-2010, 09:34 PM

honestly even with a small turbo on stock internals 500 bucks is gotta be a ghetto job... you might as well stay NA and spend that 500 on something that is actually going to help the car gain power... just my .02 I don't like half assing things. If you're going to turbo a SVX do it right or don't do it at all...

sd2649 · #44 11-09-2010, 09:38 PM

Ugh.... just leave the man alone.... he already said it wouldnt be a $500 job, just $500 for him

LetItSnow · #45 11-10-2010, 06:22 AM

The illusion with a lot of $500 jobs is that they include a lot of "resident" parts, heavy low price hunting or close-enough quality standards and a pile of DIY skill.

All - Horses take money, yes. Guidance has been offered and accepted or declined. Sit back and see what happens... You don't have much for other options.

Z - when you're done, if your build is any shade of effective and safe (all the skeptics rolled their eyes here), please do throw a number out there on how much you'd have spent if you had no materials to start with?