Lets make a "definitive" turbo SVX thread.

[drivemusicnow]

Okay, I'd first like to say, I will not be doing this. As much as the SVX interests me, and as cool a car as it is, There are cheaper cars that go faster (IE, my dsm). I'm going to ramble on for a while, so if I make any mistakes, please note them. I'd like for this to become the beginnings of a "do it yourself turbo kit" thread.

Here is the point of this thread. Come up with a VIABLE, COST EFFECTIVE, and UPGRADEABLE turbo system.
Those three points are all I'm looking for, seeing as how different people will have the money and will to take a progect to different lengths, and everyone wants something that will work and doesn't cost a fortune.

Now, I bring you back to the wonderful days of the Forced Air Technologies SVX turbo kit. (http://www.forcedairtech.com/turbokits_svx.html)



Here are the inherent problems:
low boost ability with no intercooler.
No fuel control
No compensation for MAF overrun
Very limited upgrade from this point.
HUGE cost (4500$)
The Good things about the kit:
Will basically let you turbo a completely stock car (takes into consideration most of the details a "kit" would need)
I would ASSume it would make more horsepower

Whats unfortunate about this kit, is the fact that FAT actually does seem to have a clue about high horsepower applications, hell, they have a twin turbo dual ball bearing setup with intercooler for the 2.5 n/t guys... for the SAME PRICE.

If you take a look as SVXtasy's locker (http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/user.php?SVXtasy) I think he took the basic design behind the FAT kit, then just routed piping forwards to the IC and all the way around the engine. This solves the no IC problem. He then added injectors, and used an AIC to control them. This corrects the "no fuel adjustment problem"


If you look at the exhaust "up pipe" it looks to not flow so well. Since in turbo applications you build pressure on both sides, intake and exhaust, in order for the response to be decent, I think you'd have to make new manifolds and the turbo lower. Cast manifolds are out, so it looks like sheet metal. I'd think using just a SLIGHTLY larger "header" tube size and trying to get the curves as smooth as possible would be in order.


I'm not too familiar with anyone elses turbo kits they've put together... however here are the three solutions i've come up with.

First (cheapest): Basically build the FAT kit yourself. Figure a garret 50 trim with a 360 thrust bearing is a pretty cheap turbo and should be about sized for this application. Use the Z32 MAF that LAN is making the software for. Add a meth/water injection setup which will cool air significantly, and more so than any intercooler where it counts, in the combustion chamber. an adjustable FPR made for turbo cars (depending on the math either 2:1 or 1:1 fuel/air) I'd say running this setup with all the rest of the modifications you'd need (larger turbo back exhaust, the custom up pipe, the custom turbo-intake manifold, oil lines, etc) You should be able to run 5-7 psi (depending on LAN MAF modification) and do it reliably.

Second:
Same as above, however add a water to air charge cooler, and a air to water cooler, with pump to cool the charge air temps even more. Use the Mega squirt Standalone system. Its cheap, will control EVERYTHING, but its a PITA to setup. Increase injector size. I'd suggest using a J&S safeguard as well for insurance reasons.

Third (most expensive)
Do it right. AEM stand alone. This will let you do whatever you want as far as fuel/timing/ whatever. Use a 3 inch GM maf run a gt30r (ball bearing) or equivalent turbo (or split and run a twin turbo setup mounting the turbos (Gt25 equiv) much lower in the engine bay) I'd still use a meth/water injection system with water to charge air intercoolers because this IS effecient, and would work well.
I think you might want to "build up" the motor at this point. If you have a machine shop/engine builder who is willing to do some stuff for you, I'd suggest if possible, 9:1 compression, closed block, new valve springs, higher lift and a faster "ramp" cams, and see if a better head gasket is available. If you do all that, I think running 20-25 lbs would be possible

If you REALLY want a front mount, you could do a similar kit as SVXtasy's however i'd suggest using a meth/water injection kit as well anyway. (I personally think the benefit of the shorter tube would outweight the "look" of an FMIC, but do whatever you feel like)

Yes, we have 10:1 compression, and yes, the car was not "built" for a turbo, however if you look at some of the N/A turned turbo cars, many of them are putting down HUGE numbers. You just have to be very careful. I think anyone looking to do this and have the car last will should AT LEAST have the following:
5/6 speed manual, or a BUILT 4eat
Good motor to start with.
wideband O2 with logging equip for all additional sensors.
have half a clue what they're doing

Please, add on to this, raise questions, and if there are any aspects I've forgotten, please let me know. I have been thinking about this a lot, however I typed this up rather quickly, so I might have left out things. Also, a lot of this is just "guess" work. I have no idea how much boost you'd be able to run on the stock rods. I don't know of anyone who has bent them because of horsepower, only detonation. End of my ramblings...

[Matthewmongan]

The idea of a turbo svx is intriguing. However, cost to hp increase would indicate this is not viable. That being said, I think someone should do it, just not me. Id like to see the numbers from the ecutune st3 before we undertake a turbo. If someone can get the same hp from a SC setup tuned and proven for a better price then logically we would conclude that the sc is a better choice. However, since we own svx's we are proven to be illogical, and it seems that Subaru owners have an affinity for turbo cars. As more and more people drop turbo charged eg33s in their wrxs we will see companies developing products for the eg33. They wont be cheep but at least someone is investing the time into the r and d. after that we just need to find a way to fit it all into the engine bay.

[sperry]

Am I just missing something, or is that FAT kit missing a blow-off valve? I guess <6psi is too low to worry about the back pressure really damaging the turbo, but still, every time you let off the throttle, you're going to have to wait for the turbo to respool!

As far as an intercooler... I was thinking, if you can mount the turbo nice and low (just above the junction of the passenger header and cross-pipe in that FAT picture), you might be able to cram one of these inbetween the turbo and the butterfly:



That's a PWR barrel air-to-water intercooler. They ain't cheap (a kit with IC, water pump, radiator, and fan is around $1000-$1200) but if done right, you could keep a fairly stock looking engine bay and get into the 7-10 psi range safely... and much more if you lower the engine's compressing beforehand.

[Phast SVX]

i think you should read a book on turbine superchargers and then start to try to pull together a thread like this. A good book entitled Turbocharger Theory should be fairly light on the reading butgive you some good understanding of turbochargers. then come back to something like this when you are done. For example. i see a very big problem with a lot of what you are saying. a 50 trim is going to be far to small(read very inefficent) on a 3.3L engine. You will be running somewhere around 45% compresor efficeny at low boost levels(typically you want to be in the 60% and 70%s for streetability na to turbo power) Yes, in general you are on the right track but i dont think you really understand the differences in turbochargers, trim sizes and compressor maps,exhuast housing size, etc. Its imperative to understand how to calculate your engines flow rate, and pressure ratio at desired boost level before choosing what turbocharger will best suite your needs.
how to properly size and develop routing for exhuast on a turbo system is more hit or miss given the variables that you know about your motor and what you are attempting to achieve and how much you want to spend. Calculatiing the best exhuast housing for your setup mathmatically is something that is defiently left to the Engineers with lots of experience due to all the factors that effect the turbine thermodynamically, so most of the best tuners out there will simply use their know how to a point, and within that range try differnt size exhuast housings to get the desired end result.
There really is no "Best", intrinsic value is the important component in engine modification for the enthusiast.

phil

[Phast SVX]

Originally Posted by sperry

Am I just missing something, or is that FAT kit missing a blow-off valve? I guess <6psi is too low to worry about the back pressure really damaging the turbo, but still, every time you let off the throttle, you're going to have to wait for the turbo to respool!

As far as an intercooler... I was thinking, if you can mount the turbo nice and low (just above the junction of the passenger header and cross-pipe in that FAT picture), you might be able to cram one of these inbetween the turbo and the butterfly:



That's a PWR barrel air-to-water intercooler. They ain't cheap (a kit with IC, water pump, radiator, and fan is around $1000-$1200) but if done right, you could keep a fairly stock looking engine bay and get into the 7-10 psi range safely... and much more if you lower the engine's compressing beforehand.

thats definetly a sweet unit if you can aford it. I went ahead an ditched the AC since it had all leaked out anyways. left plenty of room for an air/air intercooler(although i must admit the sawzall was involved )
phil

[mbtoloczko]

How about just going with water injection instead of an intercooler? It seems like no one is interested in trying it, but from what I've read, its a perfect compliment for running a turbo on a stock EG33 motor. Slows flame speed, greatly reduces cylinder temperatures, negates the need to run rediculously rich afrs.

[Phast SVX]

Originally Posted by mbtoloczko

How about just going with water injection instead of an intercooler? It seems like no one is interested in trying it, but from what I've read, its a perfect compliment for running a turbo on a stock EG33 motor. Slows flame speed, greatly reduces cylinder temperatures, negates the need to run rediculously rich afrs.

thats more of a pita if you ask me, id rather do it right and be done with it then to have to fill a water tank every few days. We put a water injection kit on a S/C'd E36 a few years ago, made good gains but the customer later came back and opted for a more permenant route.
phil

[TomsSVX]

I'd rather not worry about running out of water either...

Tom

[drivemusicnow]

Originally Posted by Phast SVX

i think you should read a book on turbine superchargers and then start to try to pull together a thread like this. A good book entitled Turbocharger Theory should be fairly light on the reading butgive you some good understanding of turbochargers. then come back to something like this when you are done. For example. i see a very big problem with a lot of what you are saying. a 50 trim is going to be far to small(read very inefficent) on a 3.3L engine. You will be running somewhere around 45% compresor efficeny at low boost levels(typically you want to be in the 60% and 70%s for streetability na to turbo power) Yes, in general you are on the right track but i dont think you really understand the differences in turbochargers, trim sizes and compressor maps,exhuast housing size, etc. Its imperative to understand how to calculate your engines flow rate, and pressure ratio at desired boost level before choosing what turbocharger will best suite your needs.
how to properly size and develop routing for exhuast on a turbo system is more hit or miss given the variables that you know about your motor and what you are attempting to achieve and how much you want to spend. Calculatiing the best exhuast housing for your setup mathmatically is something that is defiently left to the Engineers with lots of experience due to all the factors that effect the turbine thermodynamically, so most of the best tuners out there will simply use their know how to a point, and within that range try differnt size exhuast housings to get the desired end result.
There really is no "Best", intrinsic value is the important component in engine modification for the enthusiast.

phil

I'm actually very familiar with turbo sizing, theory, and compressor maps, However I wasn't really thinking when I said 50 trim. I'll explain later, however I think a T04B-60-1 compressor trim would be appropriately sized for the SVX.

But yes, a lesson of your own, "Trim" doesn't directly relate to size. Its only a ratio between inducer and exducer sizes. (You were assuming that I was just thinking of a T04E-50 compressor which I was, however no, I hadn't really put too much thought into the correct turbo sizing, as I threw this thread together.

I also included nothing about the exhaust housing size which, due to the fairly limited number of common turbines and housings, its actually not too difficult to pick between what is commonly available depending what you're going for.

So lets actually run through the math. SVX, stock form, uses ABOUT 25 lbs per min.
Compressor Map
You figure that the "pressure ratio" (ratio between planned boost to run, and atmospheric) would lie right at about 1.3 when running 5 psi of boost. Since you'd obviously have more airflow than stock, You end up at about 35 lbs per min airflow with only that 5 psi of boost. This puts you out of effiency on this compressor. Thats why I like the 60-1:
60-1 with 5 psi
60-1 with 15 psi

As you can see, both of these fit the SVX fairly well. Better Phast?

Second of all, your estimate of the water is WAY low. Most people that run two nozzles fill up their water/meth/alchy injection setup when they get gas for the car. and typically it has a larger percentage of fluid left than the gas tank does. Do you mind stopping for gas every once in a while? Many people just use wiper fluid, as it is already 50/50 meth/water. This works extremely well, because its cheap, available at gas stations, and most people use the windshield washer resevoirs to run the extra pump anyway. I HIGHLY recomend this, as it really is the only way to run boost effectively on a high compression motor (street driven).

[Phast SVX]

Originally Posted by drivemusicnow

I'm actually very familiar with turbo sizing, theory, and compressor maps, However I wasn't really thinking when I said 50 trim. I'll explain later, however I think a T04B-60-1 compressor trim would be appropriately sized for the SVX.

But yes, a lesson of your own, "Trim" doesn't directly relate to size. Its only a ratio between inducer and exducer sizes. (You were assuming that I was just thinking of a T04E-50 compressor which I was, however no, I hadn't really put too much thought into the correct turbo sizing, as I threw this thread together.

I also included nothing about the exhaust housing size which, due to the fairly limited number of common turbines and housings, its actually not too difficult to pick between what is commonly available depending what you're going for.

So lets actually run through the math. SVX, stock form, uses ABOUT 25 lbs per min.
Compressor Map
You figure that the "pressure ratio" (ratio between planned boost to run, and atmospheric) would lie right at about 1.3 when running 5 psi of boost. Since you'd obviously have more airflow than stock, You end up at about 35 lbs per min airflow with only that 5 psi of boost. This puts you out of effiency on this compressor. Thats why I like the 60-1:
60-1 with 5 psi
60-1 with 15 psi

As you can see, both of these fit the SVX fairly well. Better Phast?

Second of all, your estimate of the water is WAY low. Most people that run two nozzles fill up their water/meth/alchy injection setup when they get gas for the car. and typically it has a larger percentage of fluid left than the gas tank does. Do you mind stopping for gas every once in a while? Many people just use wiper fluid, as it is already 50/50 meth/water. This works extremely well, because its cheap, available at gas stations, and most people use the windshield washer resevoirs to run the extra pump anyway. I HIGHLY recomend this, as it really is the only way to run boost effectively on a high compression motor (street driven).

as you stated(and admitted to), i was assuming you were planing on using a t3/t04e (50 trim) as this would be the conventional turbo used by most imports these days. I never stated that trim directly related to size, i stated that a t3/t04e 50 trim would be too small for an eg33 setup(and yes, a 50 trim promoting a faster spool then a 57 or 60 trim is considered a smaller .) however if you feel the need to plug in our engines values on motorgeeks turbocalc and spit them back out at me feel free to do so. you asked for suggestions and comments and i gave you mine. Motorgeek does let you know the values, i was suggesting you read a good book that i had found very helpfull, please try not to be so offended next time

meth/water injection is definetly not the only way to run boost effectivly on a high compression motor. Most of the turbocharged vehicles i deal with are honda's(10.5:1 and up), in fact the shop im invovled with has a mechanic that makes all of our collectors from scratch

this car went 13.1 on a full bodied 99 si, b20 turbo with street tires. no meth injection and 8lbs of boost. Most of the GSR's we have turbo'd run great, thanks to hondata and some elbow grease.


LAN ran stage 3 with zero problems at 9psi for a long time on pump gas, and as we stand right now with forced induction on the EG33 i dont think there is anyway you can make the statement that meth injection is crucial to a FI svx. I guess if you feel that you want to go through the entire proccess of installing a nice turbo setup and then not wanting to install an Intercooler then its a good option for you.

[SVXtasy]

Originally Posted by drivemusicnow

If you take a look as SVXtasy's locker (http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/user.php?SVXtasy) I think he took the basic design behind the FAT kit, then just routed piping forwards to the IC and all the way around the engine. This solves the no IC problem. He then added injectors, and used an AIC to control them. This corrects the "no fuel adjustment problem"

You have my locker yay I thought I lost it ) I am going to do my best not to be insulted by saying that "I think he took the basic design behind the FAT kit". I thin I have made a lot of improvements over the FAT kit. My down pipe is huge and my up pipe is shorter. The turbo is in a better place etc. I think I went over this here http://www.cardomain.com/ride/771596 my website also has more pictures of the project
www.svxtasy.com

If I had it to do over again what would I do...
eManage
370cc SR20DET injectors
60-1 full T4
ECU tune z32 MAF thing
And everything else the same

On a bad note I still have not fixed the problem with the car. And I am replacing the turbo with a 60-1 in a few weeks. I think the problem was not MAF over run. but a bad turbo it was an eBay turbo and it was very strange (unusual flanges a/r they said it was a stg 5 hot side but I am not sure about that) we need to remember that we have a bigger engine then a supra and more compression so we can spool very large turbos with these cars and I think that the turbo was just to small and just would not flow enough. So I did an experiment with the car just sitting in the drive way. I just stepped on the gas and the cars RPM should just go out to the rev lim and stay there but it did not. It went to 5800 and would not go any farther (lots of backfiring) so sadly I had been taken when I got the turbo ( o well it happens. the only other problem that it could be is that the up pipe has a poor design. this is possible but I think it is unlikely.

[SVXtasy]

BTW i would like to see LAN - ECUtune put out code for the 370cc injectors. he has far to much on his plate right now but i would love to see it.

[drivemusicnow]

First I want to say, What the HELL IS WRONG with the forums and the whole freezing/locking up thing. I've seriously lost a large number of posts to this, and it usually gets me frustrated enough that I don't try and repost them.

I hadn't noticed how different in placement your kit is versus FAT's... I guess I should have looked a little closer. I do agree that you did a much better job of the up pipe. I'm not sure having never tried to construct one, however is it possible to get the drivers side bank even smoother? I like the thicker piping idea as well!


Phast: I used motorgeek because its an easy place to get a list of all the compressor maps. Its also easy to graphically show "where" on the map I'm talking about. I did not take any offense to your post, however you really should try to be less condescending. You have a lot of knowledge and I'd appreciate (as would anyone trying to undertake this project) the information and help you could provide. I will check out the book however.

In regards to W/I and tuning. We don't have Hondata. We don't have DSMlink. Heck, we don't even have anyone thats tried an SAFC that has talked about it. Other than a complete standalone, or dealing with megasquirt, we basically have to deal with what we're given. I agree with SVXtacy that it would be awesome if we could get code for the 370 injectors (should just be a global adjustment, however without testing/adjustability theres no way to tune them on each car) So there it is. We have no accurate, effective, or safe way to tune these cars. Whats the solution? Try to prevent knock as much as possible.

In MY opinion, I don't think the front mount is the best way to do it. No offense to SVXtacy at all (and sorry I didn't notice/know about you're other major improvements) I just don't think its the best way to do things. Using Water Injection can ONLY help. I think if it was used with an "manifold" like FAT has on their kit, and with a water to air cooler, we could get amazing results as far as intake air temp and knock control. This directly allows you to run higher boost. And even WITH a front mount, I think W/I is a very beneficial modification. Even if you decide to tune without it, and then add it to run when you hit boost, it will still help.

SVXtacy: Would you still use the AIC? I thought you had been running into a bunch of problems with that and decided that it wasn't the best way to go.

[SVXtasy]

i am not usign the AIC right now i will have the eManage controle the injectors if i need the extra fuel. the 370cc injectors should be fine for now.

[SVXtasy]

BTW the eManage works on the SVX *IF* you have the ECUtune z32 MAF thing. to make it work i used all of the settings for the 300zx and it works every well.