"Who Will Tell the People?"

[benebob]

Originally Posted by lhopp77

REASON for TRADE DEFICIT???

Just look around your house and do an inventory. How many things are produced in the USA by American companies??? Probably less than 10-15 percent. Much of that you can blame on aggressive unions in years past and the quality of American goods. US automakers (and many other companies for that matter) can't compete with foreign companies because of unions and our lawyer driven "sue'em" mentality. The litigation environment is also most of the reason we pay much higher prices for medical treatment and medications than do people in other countries for the same things. Yes, I am aware that other countries have unions and Europe is beginning to have significant problems. The Japanese unions are organized differently and have fewer constraining impacts on their companies.

Nader and the boys would be a total nonsolution. Remember its our Congress that passes laws and controls the money. It will still be controlled by one of the two current major parties.

We DO need to continue drilling and exploration of our own oil and natural gas resources---BUT--the emphasis on alternative energy needs to be increased exponentially. We need to start building nuclear power plants NOW and continue the search for other alternatives. We see now it was dumb as h3ll to ever think about using a food source for fuel. Blame that on both parties--Ally Gori bragged about forcing the corn ethanol production, but we now see the impact on food prices worldwide.

Our two parties won't get together and pass a comprehensive energy bill because they are afraid only one of them will get the credit. The Democrats are afraid to push nuclear power plant construction because of some of the nutty support base. The Republicans insist on drilling in all areas which may or may not be realistic. ANWAR is damn sure realistic.

Lee

Sure it must be the unions fault that the average Japanese autoworker makes more than a union US autoworker does and has for nearly 25 years though not by much when you take cost of living into the equation. Unions have done more for you and your generation than you seem to remember. There are plenty of downsides to unionization just as there are upsides. Easiest solution is to require that any good shipped here meet minimum standards for enviromental, working conditions and living wages otherwise those products face a huge tarriff. The result will be a world which if they want to sell here needs to play by our rules and treat their workers and the world with respect. In turn this would lessen the ablility of fanatics the world over to recruit the young, dumb and underemployeed and also allow the US to keep the ability to at the very least built our own tanks and missles instead of farming that off to the Chinese as well.

Last time I checked (have to ask the guy who spend much of his life building plants) not a single plant was built by the government. The policies from the past 30 years have been too favorable to burning dead animals to building plants, however, he's gotten a ton of calls in recent months about going back to work in the nuke industry since he's one of the few knowledgable about their construction still alive or of working age. Also of the 5 applications to the Republican controlled EPA and Nuc reg. industry for expansion of existing plants have sat idle since Bush took power. These applications were the first of any kind aside from extensions of existing plants since 1979. Long term though the jury is still out on the true cost of Nuke power, though it only takes 5 years to pay for the construction of a plant since the operators aren't responsible for waste... Taxpayers are (the only industry in the country that doesn't have to pay for its waste!)

So again how would a 3rd party not be a solution compared to the inaction that is taking place now? Sure congress controls money but that's what a check and balance system is for and why it really doesn't matter if you elect a Muslim, a Jew, a Catholic, an alien or a racist to the oval office as even with the recent errosion of congress's power there is still 3 seperate branches which could at any moment hold the other hostage. An Allen Keyes presidency for instance wouldn't stop all pork barrel spending and realize the merits of a strong dollar and balanced budget but it would force congress to override his veto by coming darn close to it otherwise no budget would be passed and they wouldn't get paid. That would piss a lot of 'em off now wouldn't it!

Besides, if a 3rd party got enough votes for the oval office don't you think both the a$$es and fat a$$es would be quite keen on winning back the confidence of the American people rather than "no business" as usual.

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by benebob

Sure it must be the unions fault that the average Japanese autoworker makes more than a union US autoworker does and has for nearly 25 years though not by much when you take cost of living into the equation. Unions have done more for you and your generation than you seem to remember. There are plenty of downsides to unionization just as there are upsides.

Wrong--R O N G--Wrong. The Japanese workers are just now catching up with out union workers and that is why you see more Japanese assembly plants in the US now and reason for the Japanese economy slippage in the last decade. But, Japanese unions are not the same as US unions--they are vertical unions instead of trade and have more of their companies interests at heart than our workers. Ours have very little company loyalty.

Originally Posted by benebob

Last time I checked (have to ask the guy who spend much of his life building plants) not a single plant was built by the government.

No kidding--I didn't know that. When I said "WE" I meant the US. Our companies were effectively precluded from building any plants by licensing red tape and environmental restrictions. The government chose not to let companies build the plants. I advocate government providing incentives to build, but at the same time pushing the industry toward the application of current technologies that greatly reduce the amount of nuclear waste while increasing plant safety.

Oh, now Bush is to blame for nuclear plants not being built for how many years is it??? Get real!!!

If you think election of Nader or someone like him would significantly change things you are smoking rope or have been dead or asleep all your life. The president is essentially powerless without congressional support of HIS party AND a percentage of the other party. Veto of significant legislation would only increase the legislative inaction versus solve the problem. It would probably end up in total gridlock on controversial issues.

Lee

[benebob]

Originally Posted by lhopp77

Wrong--R O N G--Wrong. The Japanese workers are just now catching up with out union workers and that is why you see more Japanese assembly plants in the US now and reason for the Japanese economy slippage in the last decade. But, Japanese unions are not the same as US unions--they are vertical unions instead of trade and have more of their companies interests at heart than our workers. Ours have very little company loyalty.



No kidding--I didn't know that. When I said "WE" I meant the US. Our companies were effectively precluded from building any plants by licensing red tape and environmental restrictions. The government chose not to let companies build the plants. I advocate government providing incentives to build, but at the same time pushing the industry toward the application of current technologies that greatly reduce the amount of nuclear waste while increasing plant safety.

Oh, now Bush is to blame for nuclear plants not being built for how many years is it??? Get real!!!

If you think election of Nader or someone like him would significantly change things you are smoking rope or have been dead or asleep all your life. The president is essentially powerless without congressional support of HIS part AND a percentage of the other party. Veto of significant legislation would only increase the legislative inaction versus solve the problem. It would probably end up in total gridlock on controversial issues.

Lee

Can't you read Lee, not a single application from 1979 through 2003. Now there are 5 and not one has been even looked at by the only admin that has had the opportunity to approve one. Who the hell should I blame. Carter? Reagan? Bush I? Clinton? They didn't have an application sitting in front of their EPA did they?

Incentives huh? Why would you need incentives when you can pay for your plant in 5 years? Wait, I mean the GERMANS can pay for their plants in 5 years as over 50% of the Nuke power plants are not owned by a US company.

So your solution is to stick with the same old crap and not even climb out of your shell to see what is out there? Gridlock wouldn't happen as the American people wouldn't let it, if every congressman and woman had to go home and say that the government isn't running because they can't play well with others they won't be there! Gridlock in the end would get things done just as a bomb dropped on DC would get 1/2 the things done as there are probably only half of congress there at one time

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by benebob

Can't you read Lee, not a single application from 1979 through 2003. Now there are 5 and not one has been even looked at by the only admin that has had the opportunity to approve one. Who the hell should I blame. Carter? Reagan? Bush I? Clinton? They didn't have an application sitting in front of their EPA did they?

I think maybe you need to learn to read or at least get your facts straight. Instead of a lengthy discourse on pointing out the erroneous information you are spouting--maybe you should just start with reading this............

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33442.pdf

Lee

[benebob]

My facts are straight. If you read it and comprehend it then you'll understand that the last reactor (which was at an already open plant) came online in 96. No new facilities have been started since 79. Just additional reactors at existing sites which is by far the easiest way to do get approval (heck even a Democrat approved the last one!) but I was talking about new plants as most of these new reactors at existing sites are there to eventually replace the aging reactors there thus not in effect increasing the amount of nuke power available.

Sorry, I don't do fuzzy math.

[shotgunslade]

The reason American industries are going in the dumper is not primarily because of unions, it it because they make inferior products. What has happened to the US auto industry is now happening to the US HVAC (heating, ventilating nad air conditioning) industry. The Koreans nad Japanese are making far superior products. They are more expensive, but they are much superior, and in some cases, are designed to reduce significantly installation costs, so that their cost in place is competitive.

How are they able to do this? They spend money on research and development. They are not afraid of pursuing technologies or products that may not pay off for several years. They spend money on new production equipment, enabling them to reduce costs of assembly, and thus increase ratio of content cost to assembly cost while keeping the same price.

In short they are not enslaved to next quarter's balance sheet and tomorrow's stock price. They can invest in the far future, years out. They have forgotten the basic rule of industry and of life "The you of otday can be either the best friend or the worst enemy of the you of tomorrow." For business and industry it should be the "you of 5 years from now." Upper management in the US is so isolated from long term performance. They still get their 8 digit compensation even as they ride the corporate relic into the toilet.

I think unions are to blame primarily because they have supported the conept of seniority over the concept of modernizing and improving worker skills. A more sophisticated work force would be abetter partner for US industry to remain competitive in the world marketplace. We have stupid union construction rules in NYC, things the unions refuse to build, products they sabotage because theyincorporate factory assembled components that were previously site built. They should get with the program: a better product installed with greater technical skill means more money for everybody.

[dcarrb]

I'm thinking the fact that my Cabelas boots came from China and my Ace Hardware wheelbarrow from Vietnam has nothing to do with domestic quality issues, unions, or anything of the sort. It's the corporate bottom line, folks. Why make something in the U.S.A. when it can be imported for less? If I run or invest in the company, your loss as an employee is my gain. (Until there's nobody left to buy what my company sells, that is.)

Americans want limitless access to cheap stuff, and corporations want the unimpeded ability to maximize short-term profits even at the expense of long-term domestic economic health. We all need to adjust our priorities.

I had a farm catalog awhile back that offered two prices for some hardware items: Domestic, or import. If Wal-Mart afforded the option to pay $10 for a bath towel milled in North Carolina, or $7.50 for one from Bangladesh, how many of us would spring for the former?

dcb

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by shotgunslade

I think unions are to blame primarily because they have supported the conept of seniority over the concept of modernizing and improving worker skills. A more sophisticated work force would be abetter partner for US industry to remain competitive in the world marketplace. We have stupid union construction rules in NYC, things the unions refuse to build, products they sabotage because theyincorporate factory assembled components that were previously site built. They should get with the program: a better product installed with greater technical skill means more money for everybody.

Agree

I know my posts seem to indicate that I am totally anti--union. I am not and fully recognise that they were greatly needed when first formed and for many years thereafter. I also fully agree with your statement as to the problems with the unions. They need to be more realistic and also recognize the needs of the company overall. Again the vertical union that is company AND worker oriented is much better than trade unions in which the national union may have NO real interest in the company--only the union interests. I think the ME ME ME union approach has also hurt unions nationally. I know we have all seen union members vote down a pay cut to keep the company from going under---then sure enough the company goes under and the union employees have NO job. Smart?????

I think right to work laws are good in states that have them. It makes it more difficult to form unions if a significant share of the employees don't want it. It also precludes automatic "check off" or payment of union dues if the employee does not want to be in the union.

The seniority system definitely reduces quality over time. Instead of promoting and retaining the best employees many senior minimum or substandard employees are retained.

Unions as well as companies need to be more forward thinking.

Now if we could just get a handle on big company top level management. And stop some of the multimillion dollar compensation packages in companies that are performing poorly overall.

Lee

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by benebob

My facts are straight. If you read it and comprehend it then you'll understand that the last reactor (which was at an already open plant) came online in 96. No new facilities have been started since 79. Just additional reactors at existing sites which is by far the easiest way to do get approval (heck even a Democrat approved the last one!) but I was talking about new plants as most of these new reactors at existing sites are there to eventually replace the aging reactors there thus not in effect increasing the amount of nuke power available.

Sorry, I don't do fuzzy math.

You blame Bush but there has been more action during his administration than any of the last 20 years. You need to read the Bush Administration comprehensive energy plan that the Democrats would not pass. It is actually a well balanced and realistic plan.

Tell me the FIVE applications you are talking about to include company and date submitted. Oh, and while you are at it, check out the New York State lawsuits in process to fight approval of at least one of the plant expansions.

I think you need to do some more research and maybe even improve your comprehension of what is written.

A good starting point.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear.../reactsum.html

Unlike you, I am a bit more realistic in my assessment. There HAS been a lot more action in the nuclear area during the Bush administration, but much of it is not because of him. Many factors have resulted in this activity to include administration support, higher fossil fuel costs, global warming considerations, more efficient and safer designs, and public acceptance/recognition that more nuclear power is required.

Again--get real.

Lee

[shotgunslade]

I believe that nuclear has a rightful place in our energy future. It is a lot better than "clean coal", an oxymoron if ever there was one.

Remember that many of the current nuclear plants were built in the 60's and 70's. This was the period when Appollo went to the moon with less computational power than your Gameboy. I was a boiler fireman's helper in a utility powerplant during the late 60's. It still used pneumatic controls and logic. We can do a lot better today, with solid state sensors, fuzzy logic, and genetic control algorithms. There is no reason why nuclear power plants shouldn't be safe as houses. The big deal is that no one seems to be able to agree on the critical issue of nuclear waste sequestration. Everybody is comfortable with pushing over mountains in West Virginia to get coal, then trying to burythe CO2 produced in salt mines or depleted oil wells, when the volume of nuclear waste required to produce the same amount of energy is one millionth the volume of CO2 produced by burning the coal.

I have to say, I would much prefer our shorelines to be lined with wind turbines than with oil derricks, and I would prefer new nuclear power plants to new coal-fired power plants. The southwestern desert would be a perfect location for either square miles of PV cells or solar concentrators driving steam generators. The feds ought to dump a ton of money on converting cellulosic waste, the largest single volumetric element of our landfills, into ethanol with microbes or hydrogen using high temp pyrolysis. We need to kabosh the artifical conflict between food and ethanol feedstock generated by ADM and similar agri-powers . Shucks to ethanol, not corn. Also leaves, paper, switchgrass, all that stuff no one can eat should be fuel feedstock.

Our energy future should be a patchwork quilt of resources developed in the most effective and least environmentally damaging (visual pollution doesn't count) locations. It can be done. We have the technology. It would pay for itself within our lifetimes. All we need is the foresight, the courage and the willpower.

Lee:

I absolutely agree with you about hte disconnect between executive compensation and long term company performance.

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by benebob

My facts are straight. If you read it and comprehend it then you'll understand that the last reactor (which was at an already open plant) came online in 96. No new facilities have been started since 79. Just additional reactors at existing sites which is by far the easiest way to do get approval (heck even a Democrat approved the last one!) but I was talking about new plants as most of these new reactors at existing sites are there to eventually replace the aging reactors there thus not in effect increasing the amount of nuke power available.

Sorry, I don't do fuzzy math.

AGAIN--I challenge you to provide the names of the companies and the dates filed. Or a good link will do.

Were you spouting fiction from some bad source?????

Lee

[benebob]

Originally Posted by lhopp77

AGAIN--I challenge you to provide the names of the companies and the dates filed. Or a good link will do.

Were you spouting fiction from some bad source?????

Lee

Talk to Fox news 23 about it. That's the last place I saw the same story regarding a stalled application for Exelon You're the one who's the leetch on society while collecting my hard earned dollars so you should have plenty of time to research it while collecting that SS check I'm sure you don't send back.

Oh and btw, I also heard virtually the same story about 3 months ago while listening to some white nose Limbaugh while at work. My work truck has only an AM radio and sometimes even Limbaugh is better than the only other choice. Sports radio.

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by benebob

Talk to Fox news 23 about it. That's the last place I saw the same story regarding a stalled application for Exelon You're the one who's the leetch on society while collecting my hard earned dollars so you should have plenty of time to research it while collecting that SS check I'm sure you don't send back.

Oh and btw, I also heard virtually the same story about 3 months ago while listening to some white nose Limbaugh while at work. My work truck has only an AM radio and sometimes even Limbaugh is better than the only other choice. Sports radio.

Busted!!!! There you go spouting total fiction again when it supports your far left leaning. At the minimum you could be honest and not repeat stories that are by "they" or pure fabrication. Just stick to the facts in the future.

For your information--I have not collected a SS check yet. (I do collect military retirement, though)

I suspect when you reach SS age that you won't send anything back.

Actually if you want the Exelon application status--check here.

http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/new-lice...p/clinton.html

Lee

[benebob]

Originally Posted by lhopp77

Busted!!!! There you go spouting total fiction again when it supports your far left leaning. At the minimum you could be honest and not repeat stories that are by "they" or pure fabrication. Just stick to the facts in the future.
Lee

I guess you're calling Limbaugh a liar then. Keep you're ignorance to yourself if you can't handle reality, just be happy you're leeching of the working people of this country and that there are unions and left leaning people allowing you to do it. I gave you the sources you wanted but I'm not going to waste my time coming up with a date and time for someone who lives in a fantasy world that thinks his $%^ doesn't stink nor someone he voted for didn't do what he thinks they should or would.

I'll cash every single SS check I get which since you were unable to keep their politicians from spending more money then you paid in and needed to borrow on the backs of your children I'd suspect will be about ZERO checks.

Sorry if I don't have time to deal with your insane ramblings in the future. Rest assured that I'll be working to fund all the programs, pensions and wars that you voted idiots into office for who didn't have the money to pay for them. I guess that I'm just too left leaning though to think that you should pay for the things you use or do not make others pay for you're bad fiscal policies.

[lhopp77]

[/COLOR]

Originally Posted by benebob

I guess you're calling Limbaugh a liar then. Keep you're ignorance to yourself if you can't handle reality, just be happy you're leeching of the working people of this country and that there are unions and left leaning people allowing you to do it. I gave you the sources you wanted but I'm not going to waste my time coming up with a date and time for someone who lives in a fantasy world that thinks his $%^ doesn't stink nor someone he voted for didn't do what he thinks they should or would.

Well, you named one company when you said there were FIVE. AND I had to research it to find out that the application was approved OVER A YEAR AGO. NOW, how about telling me the names and dates of the other FOUR.

I just get sick and tired of (expletive deleted) like you that falsely accuse Bush of everything and blame everything you even think is bad on him. Just get realistic and show that you do have at least a little sense.

Have a nice day listening to Limbaugh--h3ll, I don't even listen to him.

P.S. I am proud to be a "leech" if that is what you call or consider our retired military!!!

Lee