New Subaru Impala???

[Landshark]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets


Are you sure about that? I mean, I never heard anything about Porsche being in financial trouble or even suffereing from slow sales. That doesn't mean it didn't happen - just that I never heard it.

sports car sales are currently slow, but the Cayenne is doing very well. they certainly aren't in any finacial trouble right now, which allows them to remain independant by making a buck on some SUV's.


http://edition.cnn.com/2003/BUSINESS....results.reut/

[WestCoastSVX]

Originally posted by Landshark


that's why Porsche had to sell an SUV ..... so they could make enough loot to still remain independant so they could keep making sportscars without being gobbled up by GM or VW.

I thought I read somewhere once long before the 2 came out, that the Porsche SUV was a premium more powerful version of the VW one. That would imply at least a little "nibbling" by VW at Porsche, eh?

[WestCoastSVX]

Ahhh, even if I'm off on the first part I said, the article does mention VW:

"Especially risky could be the new lower-powered version of the Cayenne with a V6 engine from Volkswagen, which will cost 40,900 euros before tax. "

[Landshark]

Originally posted by MacGyver
I thought I read somewhere once long before the 2 came out, that the Porsche SUV was a premium more powerful version of the VW one. That would imply at least a little "nibbling" by VW at Porsche, eh?

it was a collaboration with them, just like the 914. Porsche has also done stuff for Audi ( http://www.flat-6.net/view.php?model...+RS2&tab=oview ), Harley-Davidson (V-rod engine), and more i can't think of over the years.

no nibbling.

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by MacGyver


I thought I read somewhere once long before the 2 came out, that the Porsche SUV was a premium more powerful version of the VW one. That would imply at least a little "nibbling" by VW at Porsche, eh?

As far as I know, the Porsche Cayenne shares its platform with the Touareg.

[SubaSteevo]

It's amazing how you twist every argument about GM into a numbers argument. That's not what I said at all. I'm saying there are more LUMINA LOYALS...people who would say the lumina is a great car. Not just people that have owned one. So i'm saying there are more people out there that would say the lumina is one of the best cars out there than there are people who would say the same about any Subaru model.

That is a numbers arguement.

Look at it this way, lets say 50% of 1,000,000 Lumina owners love the car, that means there are 500,000 "Lumina Loyals"

Now lets say 90% of 500,000 Imprezza owners love their car, that means there are 450,000 Imprezza "Loyals".

So because there are more Lumina loyals than Imprezza loyals the Lumina is a better car?




P.S. I know the numbers aren't accurate but I didn't feel like researching them, just proving my point

[dcarrb]

Originally posted by Shadow248


Good luck to you my friend. What you mentioned is pretty much impossible. Do you use bank ATM's? If so then chances are you've used microsoft software. Have you taken the bus or train lately? Many city buses are using Natural gas/Diesel motors produced by GM and Isuzu. GP30/GP50 series train locomotives use diesels built in part by GM. Taxis? Nuff said there. Wal-Mart is so embedded in today's department store market, it's impossible not to be affected by it. If you buy products from Kraft/Nabisco, Keebler, Frito Lay (to name a few) then you are helping to support Wal-Mart. The store holds a massive share in each company's sales and therefore has a ton of pull in each company. These companies all but depend on Wal-Mart to survive. Each time you buy any of those products (and thousands of others), you are supporting Wal-Mart whether you like it or not.

I'm not saying it's right, just that you should get used to it cause it's not getting any better.

Plus how is Subaru any different than the huge companies? They use the same business practices, just on a smaller scale. To say that the cars are better or that they care about the customer more because they are a smaller company is just buying into their advertising. Also remember that NOW when you buy a Subaru, you are helping to support GM

Well, of course it's virtually impossible to completely avoid Microsoft, and almost so when it comes to Wal-Mart and General Motors. My computer at home is a Dell. I went with my daughter to Wal-Mart just a couple of weeks ago. (To answer your questions about ATMs, trains, buses and taxis: no, no, no and no. Fine Frito Lay products, on the other hand...)

And I know of no particularly endearing business practices in which Subaru or Fuji Heavy Industries may engage. They're large corporations, in business to make money. That said, I've driven many Subarus. I'm generally happy with the product. Moreover, I like being able to spend my money on what I want.

You're right, it's getting worse. Hometown busnesses will continue to founder in Wal-Mart's wake. Bill Gates will remain King of the Hill. Subaru will eventually become another homogenized "brand" rather than a manufacturer of distinctive automoblies. And what's really unfortunate is, we've resigned ourselves to getting "used to it."


dcb

[chris92svxlsl]

This reminds me of when ford and mazda teamed up. Anyone remember the probe and mx-6 (excuse me vomitting now) . Anyhow I think that much like mazda did not sell out their pride and joy (rotary engine=rx7) neither will subaru . I think we will see some things go from the impreza's to the aveo or cavalier (probably awd capabilities, maybe suspension) hey i grew up in subies, first the gl, loyal wagon, legacy wagon, now I own one. But I'm not going to complain if I can pick up a subie and its performnace for the price of a domestic. Even if that little guy on my shoulder's callin me benedict arnold. Oh and ford rules over gm any day. Execpt Caddy's there crap under the hood but they look pretty.

Incidentally, the reason Ford never seriously asked Mazda to share the rotary engine is because it really is quite inferior to a comparable piston engine for most the things we ask engines to do. Ford, along with others, have plenty of experience with rotaries, and concluded that they really aren't worth the trouble. Mazda, however, continues developing the rotary, and is allowed to by Ford, because that is what largely defines Mazda, both as a brand, and as the core values of their engineering and design staffs.

About the Wal-Martization of the world: Porsche is a perfect example of the realities of the New World Order in the automotive business these days.

That the Cayenne was very necessary for Porsche to build is telling. That it was necessary for Porsche to use shared resources with VW (platform, and engine, electronics, bits and pieces here and there) is even more so. That Porsche, per unit, is the most profitable car company in the world seals the deal.

That Porsche can produce a greater gross profit per unit then any other company, and still need to deviate from a formula that has proven relatively successful for half a century shows how desperate the need for market penetration and scaleable production costs have become. Even though Porsche rakes in the cash, the company is simply too small to be able to absorb the ups and downs of a very narrow, niche-oriented market, even if they do that nich better then anyone else. Furthermore, Porsche is too small to be able to develop a product like that on it's own. The last all-new Porsche that was fully designed, engineered, and produced by the company itself was the 928. Before that? The 911. It can be argued that those, along with the Boxster, are in fact the only three regular production vehicles Porsche has made on it's own. The 356 relied heavily on the Beetle, the 924/944/968 was originally meant to be an Audi, the 914 wasn't even badged as a Porsche in European markets, and the 964/993/996 have been evolutions of the same basic recipe. The last time Porsche attempted to build a new product on a new platform with a new engine, it almost died. The proposed 4-door Porsche almost bankrupted the company in the late eighties before the plug was pulled. Porsche looked at the same future when the Cayenne was proposed, and only a partnership with VW made it possible for Porsche to go ahead with it.

(Incidentally, if anyone is curious about the relationship between Porsche and VW, it is very much a family affair - both literally and figuratively. Ferdinand was instrumental in developing - or, more accurately, stealing from Tatra - the original Beetle before moving on to his own projects. For much of the late '70s, '80s, and '90s, Audi and then VAG was run by Ferdinand Piech, who is the maternal grandson of Ferdinand Porsche)

The funny thing is, despite the 914, the 924/944/968, and probably despite the Cayenne, Porsche has always managed to keep their brand equity instact. Everyone knows what a Porsche is, and for those who don't, most of them at least know it's an expensive, desireable sports car. Porsche has survived what was in fact a rather large debacle with the 912, the 914, and to a lesser extent the front engined cars. It has already sold more Cayenne's then expected. It continues to be profitable, and it will likely keep it's independence for the forseeable future.

Likewise, Alfa Romeo has largely managed to keep it's identity and charm alive despite being owned by Fiat, and despite some disastrous attempts at brand engineering by it's parent company, which, incidentally, is rather more incompetent then even GM is at times. Alfa's sister in the Fiat stable, Lancia, on the other hand has not. The difference? Alfa had a clear identity, a clear image, and a core of fiercely loyal owners. Lancia didn't, and as a result, it's slide into corporate blandness went unchecked.

Companies like Land Rover, Jaguar, and Alfa have managed to keep their identity and their values largely intact in the world of corporate behemoths. On the other hand, companies like Lancia, Daewoo, Kia, and Oldsmobile have not, simply because they never have or ceased to stand for anything, and were allowed to languish into oblivion.

That being said, the history of the auto business sheds a lot of hope for Subaru remaining largely what people love about them. It is almost certain they will move more to the mainstream, and that some enthusiasts will bemoan the change, but it is also unlikely, with the core values and brand equity that Subaru has would be completely abandoned as well.

[Shadow248]

Originally posted by Burgundy Beast
That is a numbers arguement.

Look at it this way, lets say 50% of 1,000,000 Lumina owners love the car, that means there are 500,000 "Lumina Loyals"

Now lets say 90% of 500,000 Imprezza owners love their car, that means there are 450,000 Imprezza "Loyals".

So because there are more Lumina loyals than Imprezza loyals the Lumina is a better car?

Well then how do you determine what is a better car? It's a subjective comparison to begin with. So what better way to decide than to see what others think? Right? How else are we to decide? Even if you try to do what CR does and go by problems reported...that doesn't give you any more reliability in numbers because it's only problems REPORTED - how many of those subaru and lumina owners withheld information to make the car sound better? You know that would happen. Also you will hear alot more about problems with Luminas than Subarus cause there are more than four times as many luminas on the road as subarus.

Originally posted by dcarrb
And I know of no particularly endearing business practices in which Subaru or Fuji Heavy Industries may engage. They're large corporations, in business to make money. That said, I've driven many Subarus. I'm generally happy with the product. Moreover, I like being able to spend my money on what I want.

Well i'm glad you got my point. I agree with you 100% - buy what you want. I have no intention of turning this into a GM forum, i'm just here to make sure that GM products get the respect they deserve.

Originally posted by chris92svxlsl]
This reminds me of when ford and mazda teamed up. Anyone remember the probe and mx-6 (excuse me vomitting now) . Anyhow I think that much like mazda did not sell out their pride and joy (rotary engine=rx7) neither will subaru . I think we will see some things go from the impreza's to the aveo or cavalier (probably awd capabilities, maybe suspension) hey i grew up in subies, first the gl, loyal wagon, legacy wagon, now I own one. But I'm not going to complain if I can pick up a subie and its performnace for the price of a domestic. Even if that little guy on my shoulder's callin me benedict arnold. Oh and ford rules over gm any day. Execpt Caddy's there crap under the hood but they look pretty.

Just like you will never see an LS-1 or Vortec V8 in a subaru. It's important for brands to keep a part of their identity. HOPEFULLY that will not change.

I had to read your last two sentences several times to ensure that i wasn't hallucinating. I will sum up my comment on the Ford claim in two (repeating) letters.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Cadillac looks pretty AND is rock solid (not to mention wicked) under the hood. They just happen to use two of the most celebrated engines of all time - the northstar and LS-1 V8. Do I even have to start listing all the accolades these two engines have received?

Originally posted by Shadow248
They just happen to use two of the most celebrated engines of all time - the northstar and LS-1 V8. Do I even have to start listing all the accolades these two engines have received? [/B]

hold on...let me laugh....LMAO....okay. I worked at a Cadillac dealer and that Northstar engine, oh I say about 25% of Eldorado & Seville owners had one thing in common...oil leak. The lower crankcase seal would leak after 25k-35k miles or so. It was a 12.5hr job that one of our techs can do it in 10.5hrs, and get paid for all 12.5hrs. And all under warranty. They did correct a number of problems with the quasi-second gen Northstar (1998+) engine, just like any other company that mass produce anything....it sometimes just isn't perfect the first time.

IMO, I'm not really that impress with the Northstar in the FWD application that was the Eldorado & Seville. All that torque steer!!

I understand that GM wanted the Northstar engine in the new XLR, retain their brand image. I personally don't feel that the Northstar is the right engine for that coupe. I feel it's a bit low on power.

I do think GM should look into buying more reliable, maybe some consider, better engineered & built motors.

[SubaSteevo]

Originally posted by Shadow248
I will sum up my comment on the Ford claim in two (repeating) letters.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Shadow248]

Burgundy - that's awesome. Wish I had that when I wrote my post.

Originally posted by YodaIsGod
hold on...let me laugh....LMAO....okay. I worked at a Cadillac dealer and that Northstar engine, oh I say about 25% of Eldorado & Seville owners had one thing in common...oil leak. The lower crankcase seal would leak after 25k-35k miles or so. It was a 12.5hr job that one of our techs can do it in 10.5hrs, and get paid for all 12.5hrs. And all under warranty. They did correct a number of problems with the quasi-second gen Northstar (1998+) engine, just like any other company that mass produce anything....it sometimes just isn't perfect the first time.

So one problem that occured 25% of the time makes it a bad engine? If that was the case then we sure as **** would not be saying that subaru engines are so great.

Originally posted by YodaIsGod
I do think GM should look into buying more reliable, maybe some consider, better engineered & built motors.

You could say this about any company. There is always room for improvement. The fact is that GM is quite good at building engines...that's one of the things they do right, and have done for a long time. Like in any company, there are bad eggs...but overall they have some of the best engines out there.

[SubaSteevo]

Thought the thread was getting to serious, plus I've been looking for an excuse to use it since we've been allowed to do IMG posts

[Landshark]

Originally posted by Shadow248
I'm saying there are more LUMINA LOYALS...people who would say the lumina is a great car.

ROTFLMFAO!!! you, sir, have found teh funnAy!!!

there are actually LUMINA LOYALS out there?!?!?!? a great car???

i had one, and so did my brother. our engine computers failed roughly aroung the same mileage (75k and 80k). the brakes were so bad (and frickin' dangerous!) that there was a class action lawsuit. if i had saved my receipts, i could have won back a small portion of the loot i poured into brake repairs - no compensation for the aggravation and downtime, unfortunately. what else? my transmission grenaded, dash warped beyond recognition, plastic parts broken off everywhere, the fun 'slam-into-each-other' wipers (great design there ), ..... i could go on and on.

so let me ask you this - was this just me and my bro's bad luck? was replacing ABS sensors at every oil change in my wife's Cavalier just an isolated incident? maybe you've just been extremely lucky, or i've been extremely UNlucky. is it sinking in yet why i'm not rushing out to buy a GM anytime soon?

tell us again how wonderful and misunderstood they are, how many people are smiling from ear to ear with their Chevy's, but you'll never change my opinion.

GM is great.............for me to poop on!