Confirm my problem is Alternator related

[K_Dub]

The plot thickens. I got everything kluged together somewhat. I still haven't received the 4AWG power cables from Maniac, nor the new connector from Electric Motor Service. That second one kinda chaps my hide seeing as I payed for overnight shipping on it so that it wouldn't show up on Monday. The good news though was that I was able to disassemble the old connector and replace the wires. I'm confident in my connections, but I still plan to replace it with the new unit whenever it arrives. I swapped out the alternator without any issues, and installed the new battery. Things are looking good!

I fired it up. Now my car has sat for a week and a half, which it seldom does, but it did fire right up. The idle leveled out at 1K so I took some readings. 14.5V solid from the alt to the battery. I did my happy dance.

Then it stalled after about 5min.

It fired back up, but cannot maintain idle. I checked the codes and I'm getting: [Code 22: Knock Sensor or Circuit (Right Side on SVX)]

Any ideas? Could this have happened from sitting, or the old alt dying; improper installation? They don't seem related to me, but this wasn't an issue before. Maybe it's just my luck.

UPDATE: It'll idle steady now at about 700RPM. I tried clearing the code, but it just popped right back up. Still seems sluggish, but it's hard to tell when parked.

[K_Dub]

Originally Posted by K_Dub

Blah, blah, blah,

I checked the codes and I'm getting: [Code 22: Knock Sensor or Circuit (Right Side on SVX)]

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

I've looked this part up, and where it lives under the hood. Anyone want to bet against me bashing it when I installed the alternator? I've got $70 on that being the case.

Is the car still drivable like this? I'd like to get it over to my friend's house to work on it and get some help. Overall; I'm just glad I don't have knock issues, but I am disappointed. Did I mention that I'm not too good at this?

[Cam]

If the knock sensor is giving a bad reading, then the car will retard the timing and richen the AFR. It is drivable, but will be underpowered compared to what you are used to.

Harvey, I understand what you are saying, but I do not agree that what you describe is happening. I am familiar with ohms law, but your typo confused me (you said 250 watts, then 260 volts. I did not check the math...). What you described would be the case if the wiring did not have anything connected to it after the battery. Fortunately, everything ties in together at the alternator. Hence why the car will run without either the battery or the alternator (assuming the battery is fully charged).

When pulling the battery cable you are eliminating one of the power sources from the circuit, so the car soaks up the entire alternator output (or enough of it), instead of it drawing off the battery while the alternator recharges it.

In order for this "spike" to occur, you would need voltage to drop all the way down to 1v. This is absurd. The current just flows past the point of contact for the battery and continues into the rest of the car, more or less retaining voltage.

At least, thats how I see it. And there are facts to support my case. Such as, A) I have done this on dozens of cars, old and new, with NO problems. B) I have done this on my own cars probably 100 times, swapping batteries, checking the alternator, etc.

[K_Dub]

Can I leave this here for the metadata? Link

Originally Posted by SVXdc

Go ahead and replace both knock sensors — If one is bad, the other is likely soon to follow.

Several less-expensive aftermarket parts are listed in this thread:

knock sensor

Also see the link in post #5 to the annotated pictures in SVXRide's locker. He was able to replace both sensors after removing only the alternator and the plastic "H-6" engine cover. Much easier than removing the intake manifold.

Additional threads:

Knock Sensor Replacement - Long

Knock Sensors

intake manifold (should you opt to remove it for easier access)

Pictures by svxfiles: Rear knock sensor

I'm about to do this myself, but need to borrow a few exotic socket wrench extensions.

Also, thanks Cam. Crappy mileage beats no mileage.

[K_Dub]

Originally Posted by svxcess

That is quite common. The power wires that connect to the top of the alternator, as well as the wires that connect to the alternator plug) really deteriorate over the years with high underhood temps, resulting in failing insulation and corrosion

You have to cut them back quite a ways back to find where they become flexible again. I just cut the plug wires back as far as I could and replaced them.

One of the two white wires from the power terminal on the top of the alternator is what supplies the battery. You can see how much smaller it is compared with new 4 gauge. When new twenty years ago, the wires were adequate for the needs of the SVX. Over the years, heat and corrosion and deterioration has inhibited its original ability to carry current efficiently; hence the need for the wiring upgrade. The same is true of grounds.


You can buy the alternator plug with a short length of wire attached directly from Electric Motor Service in Logan, WV. Their phone number is 800- 697-6070

The part number is 050-012252 and they go for $9.53 each plus shipping with no minimum. I already ordered two more.

.

I got my connector today. The two leads coming from it are both 18AWG, whereas the stock wiring was 10 and 16AWG. These aren't the charging cables, I know, but is this smaller gauge wiring up to whatever task they're needed for. I'm sure it'd beat the frayed wires that they replace either way.

Gonna run out for a knock sensor right now. Still waiting for my wiring bits. I'm ready for this to be done.

[K_Dub]

Argh!

No knock sensors anywhere in LA county. I was willing to pay stealership prices just to get back on the road today, but alas it's a special order any way I slice it. I start work tomorrow, so I'll be driving my car with it's jury rigged wiring and CEL for the rest of the week. I've got a road trip planned for June; hopefully all my internet orders will arrive by then. The connector was sent to Popanga, CA so I should just count my blessings that it showed up at all.

[K_Dub]

I ordered my new knock sensor from O'Reilly, $65.99 for the BWD part #S8617. Sucky price, but it will be at my local store tomorrow morning and I don't have to pay for shipping. It is tied for the price at the dealership, but I get it a day earlier for whatever that's worth.

Any input as to the cable gauges on the replacement harness? I'll spend the rest of that car's life worrying about this unless I hear otherwise.

[Cam]

It's probably fine. You could always pin replacement wires in there if you needed, but you would need the appropriate pins for the thicker wire.

[K_Dub]

Originally Posted by Cam

It's probably fine. You could always pin replacement wires in there if you needed, but you would need the appropriate pins for the thicker wire.

Sounds a lot like what I did with the original connector. What did I spend $60 on? Whatever.

Thanks Cam. I tend to get paranoid about this stuff, because I don't want to keep breaking parts over and over. Since neither of those wires carries the charge I doubt it needs very heavy gauge. On the other hand, Subaru used 10AWG for some reason, so why risk a wire with half the diameter?

I don't think the car is drivable in this condition. The CEL seems to have magically cleared itself, but it still won't maintain idle. It fluctuates between about 200-1000 RPM then just dies. It ran better with the bum alternator in it. I know this is just counterproductive whining, but I'm nearing my wits end.

[oab_au]

[QUOTE=Cam;672906]

Harvey, I understand what you are saying, but I do not agree that what you describe is happening. I am familiar with ohms law, but your typo confused me (you said 250 watts, then 260 volts. I did not check the math...). What you described would be the case if the wiring did not have anything connected to it after the battery. Fortunately, everything ties in together at the alternator.

Yes it is still connected to the rest of the electrical system, that is how the high voltage gets to damage it.

When pulling the battery cable you are eliminating one of the power sources from the circuit, so the car soaks up the entire alternator output (or enough of it), instead of it drawing off the battery while the alternator recharges it.

No when you disconnect the battery while the Alt is charging the battery, the energy (watts) that the Alt is generating has to go somewhere. The regulator will read the voltage rise and reduce the rotors current flow to suit the rest of the systems voltage. Unfortunately the electronics in the regulator doesn't respond as fast as the electron flow, so the wattage from the Alt has the current reduced, so the voltage is increased.
So if the Alt is charging 20 amps at 13 Volts, and you take the battery lead off, the 20 amps stops, and the voltage rises to a 260 volts spike, before the regulator can reduce the rotors current flow.

In order for this "spike" to occur, you would need voltage to drop all the way down to 1v. This is absurd. The current just flows past the point of contact for the battery and continues into the rest of the car, more or less retaining voltage.

No you need the current to drop all the way down, for the voltage to ‘spike’. It is the voltage 'spike' that “ just flows past the point of contact for the battery and continues into the rest of the car”, to damage the electronic units.

At least, thats how I see it. And there are facts to support my case. Such as, A) I have done this on dozens of cars, old and new, with NO problems. B) I have done this on my own cars probably 100 times, swapping batteries, checking the alternator, etc

.
Well if you are OK to keep doing it, don’t let me change your ways, but it is not being helpful to tell other members to do, what is accepted as a unsafe practice.

Harvey.

PS. If you want to continue this discussion, it should be on its own thread. We have taken enough of K_Dubs.

[Cam]

The post you refer to in your previous post covers what happens if the regulator goes out. This thread covers the disconnection of the battery. You should stick to the subject talked about.

Forgetting all the fancy speak it is still true that if the battery becomes disconnected the regulator remains constantly connected and therefore the output does not fly up to 260 volts as you say and remains regulated. This is the actual point which has been made and it still remains correct.

The usual advice is not to disconnect the battery if the engine is running because with some cars with different wiring this might cause a problem, but we are talking about the SVX, *where the regulator stays working.

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by Cam

The post you refer to in your previous post covers what happens if the regulator goes out. This thread covers the disconnection of the battery. You should stick to the subject talked about.

Forgetting all the fancy speak it is still true that if the battery becomes disconnected the regulator remains constantly connected and therefore the output does not fly up to 260 volts as you say and remains regulated. This is the actual point which has been made and it still remains correct.

The usual advice is not to disconnect the battery if the engine is running because with some cars with different wiring this might cause a problem, but we are talking about the SVX, *where the regulator stays working.

I have posted this without permission of the contact that provided the information, so unless he would like to chime in, it will remain an anonymous source.

GOBYA.

[Cam]

I know what you are thinking, but the person in question is still an active member here on the forum, not trevor. Sorry to dissapoint you. They must not want someone making angry smiley faces at them on the internet.

Anyways, im done with this. I leave you to rattle your dags

[K_Dub]

Originally Posted by K_Dub

Why didn't somebody say I could just call up Maniac and have them add some cable and connectors to my order?

I just canceled my order with Maniac for the wiring upgrade. Christian said it would be at least Friday (I'm guessing Monday) before I received my wires, and I let her know what I thought of that. I don't care if it's a 4 gauge noodle, no wire is worth waiting over two weeks for. Fry's sells a Monster Cable wiring kit complete with rings and a fuse for less than Maniac and I can go down the street and pick one up. If I don't like it, I can take it right back again.

Here's a "Knu Koncept". It's called inventory. You can't compete with Radio Shack if every transaction takes half a month to fulfill.

[svxcess]

Spoke with Christian at Maniac Electric Motors today.

She said that after you ordered your alternator, you called back to see if you could add the wiring upgrade to the order. She said they did not have the ring connectors in stock at the time, but they were expecting them very soon, and she told you this as well.

The ring connectors came in and she sent the wiring upgrade out to you by UPS at no charge, including shipping.

After the upgrade was sent out, you called her back to cancel the order and buy local. She then called UPS and had the order sent back to her.

Anyone can run out of parts at any time for any reason, including Radio Shack. That is the reason the "rain check" concept came into existence.

Buy whatever cable you want. I still think the Knukonceptz cable is superior to anything out there for our purposes.

As far as fusing goes, the Mega-fuse is an essential component. Other types of fuses are too large and cumbersome to fit within the tight confines of our engine bay. The slo-blo capabilities of the Mega-Fusewere designed for high current alternator applications and handle an occasional spike without blowing. Other types of fuses (AFS/ANL) are designed for stereo applications.
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