Tonight's Debate

[Uncamitzi]

Originally posted by NapaBavarian
I don't know who to vote for, they are both right. For instance each canidate says that the other will do a great deal of harm to the country, and they are both right on that point...

You finally said something I agree with...

sad .... isn't it.....?

[Landshark]

can someone give me an example of a good piece of legislation that John Kerry had passed in the last 20 years?

[Uncamitzi]

Originally posted by Landshark
can someone give me an example of a good piece of legislation that John Kerry had passed in the last 20 years?

according to him.... 52 bills (that he didn't author)....???

[Landshark]

John Kerry: "i've got plans........"

where have your "plans" been during your long career as a senator?

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by Landshark
can someone give me an example of a good piece of legislation that John Kerry had passed in the last 20 years?

Can anybody give an example of any piece of legislation that any senator has passed?

The truth of the matter is that the American public is grossly ill-informaed about domestic and world affairs - and especcially about what's going on in our own government. So when a question like the above is raised by, say, the Republican party, the first answer that comes to mind is, 'hey, you're right - I can't think of a single thing John Kerry has done in the past 20 years. Clearly he's done nothing.'

I try to use as many sources of information as possible, and I am absolutely appalled at some of the things Bush, Cheney and their campaign peopel say that their supporters just accept as fact without checking on their own.

Now, that's not to say that the other side hasn't misrepresented the facts occasionally or just plain made stuff up. But I see far more eggregious examples coming from the Bush camp and I just can't fathom how people just take their word for it without looking into things for themselves.

If we have Bush for another four years, then clearly he speaks for the people and so be it. We'll have it coming.

[Landshark]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets
But I see far more eggregious examples coming from the Bush camp and I just can't fathom how people just take their word for it without looking into things for themselves.

examples?

[RojoRocket]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets


Now, that's not to say that the other side hasn't misrepresented the facts occasionally or just plain made stuff up. But I see far more eggregious examples coming from the Bush camp and I just can't fathom how people just take their word for it without looking into things for themselves.

And if you don't look, accepting whatever is said or printed to reinforce what you already believe to be true, it's a shame.

Fact is folks, our "System" of Government is badly bent. Special interests are allowed to buy their way into the offices of our elected "representatives" in ways the little guy can't. TV time, print ads and other exposure, used in ways the average citizen can't fathom, to influence the voter in subtle ways, undermines the very bedrock the nation was founded on. Fact is we all have to take personal responsibility and the steps to dig for the truth, often hidden behind clever rhetoric by both "sides".

I would suggest that we post website links representing various groups and let those caring enough to get away from the boob-tube for a little "horizon widening" peel the onion for yourselves.

Here's a couple; http://www.pfaw.org/
http://pirg.org/calpirg/

Glenn

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by Landshark


examples?

I feel bad enough for getting into this thread. First of all, I don't like public political arguments like this and second I never should have gotten myself into something I don't have time for.

You should see the ever-increasing pile of bugs I have to fix.

I apologize for not answering your question, Alan, but I'm going to cut myself off right here instead of trying to get just one more word in.

[lee]

Originally posted by RojoRocket
...snip...Fact is folks, our "System" of Government is badly bent. Special interests are allowed to buy their way into the offices of our elected "representatives" in ways the little guy can't. ...snip...I would suggest that we post website links representing various groups and let those caring enough to get away from the boob-tube for a little "horizon widening" peel the onion for yourselves.
...snip...

How true. Anybody that doesn't think a senator race at around $50million each (for a six year, $150,000 annual salary), or a presidential race approaching $1,000,000,000.00 won't result in skewed laws is something beyond naive. Republicans claim Kerry is in the pockets of trial lawyers, Democrats claim Bush is in the pockets of big oil....And I say....Duh. For once you're both telling the truth.

Now how about sites not favoring one side or the other, but that raise the BS flag on them both... www.factcheck.org

[RojoRocket]

Thanks lee!

Glenn

[Shadow248]

There was an article in my local paper that I believe came from the Chicago Tribune...it had a PolySci professor's comments about the debate last night...he did research on it and found that of all the assertions made by either candidate about what they had done "good", about 7 were true. The rest were either completely not true, misrepresentations about fact, or just half-facts. Here's one example...

Claim: Kerry said that in the time bush has been president, employment rates have gone down more than during any other president's term.

Truth: Employment rates in the private sector have gone down during Bush's term, however government employment rates have grown drastically, meaning that the TOTAL employment rate fell only slightly, nowhere near the rates experienced towards the early part of the last century.

Yeah it's against Kerry, of course i'll remember the ones that make Kerry look dumb. There were examples for the other side too. Just wanted to make a point about these debates. They are really pointless.

[NapaBavarian]

Originally posted by Uncamitzi



You finally said something I agree with...

sad .... isn't it.....?

first time ever

[lee]

Originally posted by Shadow248
...snip...

Claim: Kerry said that in the time bush has been president, employment rates have gone down more than during any other president's term.

Truth: Employment rates in the private sector have gone down during Bush's term, however government employment rates have grown drastically, meaning that the TOTAL employment rate fell only slightly, nowhere near the rates experienced towards the early part of the last century.

Yeah it's against Kerry, of course i'll remember the ones that make Kerry look dumb. There were examples for the other side too. Just wanted to make a point about these debates. They are really pointless.

there's no shortage of DUMB factor for either side. As you point out....the reason unemployment isn't so bad is because Bush grew the Government employee payroll over what Clinton had in place - then Bush turned around and said Dems will grow Government - you have to pay big bucks for this kind of comedy any other season - or at least have HBO

[Matthewmongan]

i dont like eather of them but karry seems to be a better orator than bush. their both rich guys so i dont know how well they can understand the average american. i like it how bush gets this fuuny look on his face after everything he says. its that 'i just made a funny' look. in terms of intelegence and use of vernacular kerry far excells bush and his tax reforms seem to be on the level it all depends on weather or not he implements them and weather the econimy is palitable for the change.

[NapaBavarian]

If I had kids I might like Kerrys tax reformes, but I don't so I'm scared. Bush cut everyones taxes, sure, the top 1% might have gotten a huge break while the bottom level incomes got a small numerically break, but he cut across the board, and the wealthy have an incentive to spend their money with lower taxes and low interest rates. Wealthey may pay upwards of $1,000,000 a year in taxes, so $30,000 or 50,000, a lot of money, won't be that different from someone paying $10,000 and geting $300 or 500 back. In one of the debates kerry was asked to look into the cammera and promise not to raise taxes on people earning less than $200,000 a year, but he refused. Instead he promised child tax credits and other breaks for FAMILIES, so if you don't have kids your taxes will probably go up. He is very careful about the wording "tax breaks for families" and I have never found him to promise anyone else a tax break. Love em or hate em, the wealthy spend a lot of money, and if they are taxed more then they will look more to tax shelters, that means less of that money will find its way to my pocket.






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