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  #16  
Old 10-07-2003, 11:20 AM
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How well does this fit in with the MEP theory?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...805424,00.html
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  #17  
Old 10-07-2003, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy
How well does this fit in with the MEP theory?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...805424,00.html
MEP = HP/(liters*krpmatmaxhp)

So here

MEP = 360/(3.25*7.9) = 14.0

That's right in line with the maximum MEP values from other highly tuned NA motors. It beats the SVX by 8.5% and the 350Z motor by 6%.
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  #18  
Old 10-07-2003, 12:47 PM
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I am starting to get this now. the Rover k1.8 is pretty impressive then.

230bhp@8600 from 1.8ltrs = 14.857

I take it that this theory doesn't apply to rotary engines (RX8)

231bhp@8200 from 1.3ltrs = 21.67
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  #19  
Old 10-07-2003, 02:16 PM
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Re: Re: So the question is...

Quote:
Originally posted by mbtoloczko


If peak HP occurs at 6500 rpm, then about 300 NA HP is the max according to the MEP theory.
HOWEVER< this engine would be basically unstreetable. Crap idle, crap MPG, crap reliability.

- Rob
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  #20  
Old 10-07-2003, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy

I take it that this theory doesn't apply to rotary engines (RX8)

231bhp@8200 from 1.3ltrs = 21.67
Yes it does, but you have the displacement wrong. Rotary engines have been mislabled displacement wise. You can't count just one of the pockets, as the rotor has 3 sides. 1.3X3= 3.9.

231 / (8.2x3.9)= 7.2

Hrm. Well, I guess it doesn't apply to Rotaries.... but...eh... anyway, the displacement isn't 1.3 liters.

- Rob
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  #21  
Old 10-07-2003, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy
I am starting to get this now. the Rover k1.8 is pretty impressive then.

230bhp@8600 from 1.8ltrs = 14.857

I take it that this theory doesn't apply to rotary engines (RX8)

231bhp@8200 from 1.3ltrs = 21.67
Yeah, there is some argument as to whether the RX8 motor is 1.3L or 2.6L. I disagree with Chicane on whether the MEP concept can be used with rotaries. I would guess that the MEP concept applies to any type of motor without forced induction. Is that K1.8 motor turbocharged? The specs I've seen on the K1.8 are that it only puts about around 120 HP.
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Last edited by mbtoloczko; 10-07-2003 at 02:54 PM.
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  #22  
Old 10-07-2003, 02:53 PM
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Re: Re: Re: So the question is...

Quote:
Originally posted by Chicane


HOWEVER< this engine would be basically unstreetable. Crap idle, crap MPG, crap reliability.

- Rob
That's fine. That wasn't the point of the exercise though.
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  #23  
Old 10-07-2003, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mbtoloczko


Yeah, there is some argument as to whether the RX8 motor is 1.3L or 2.6L. I disagree with Chicane on whether the MEP concept can be used with rotaries. I would guess that the MEP concept applies to any type of motor without forced induction. Is that K1.8 motor turbocharged? The specs I've seen on the K1.8 are that it only puts about around 120 HP.
K1.8 NA

http://www.r500owners.com/specnon.html
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  #24  
Old 10-07-2003, 06:02 PM
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Re: Re: Re: So the question is...

Quote:
Originally posted by Chicane


HOWEVER< this engine would be basically unstreetable. Crap idle, crap MPG, crap reliability.

- Rob
I disagree utterly. MEP is a useful tool for discussing engine theory, but this "unstreetable" nonsense has no bearing on the real world.

You're making assumptions about the tuning of the motor that have no basis in reality.

Here's one for you... you can take an otherwise stock SVX to over 250hp just with FUEL and TIMING controls. With cams, 11:1 compression, upgraded ignition controls, upgraded valvetrain, and a standalone engine management system, 300hp with a huge stable torque curve is a walk in the park. If tuned properly you could probably see 300hp on pump gas without upgrading the internals.
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  #25  
Old 10-07-2003, 09:12 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: So the question is...

Quote:
Originally posted by Porter


I disagree utterly. MEP is a useful tool for discussing engine theory, but this "unstreetable" nonsense has no bearing on the real world.

You're making assumptions about the tuning of the motor that have no basis in reality.

Here's one for you... you can take an otherwise stock SVX to over 250hp just with FUEL and TIMING controls. With cams, 11:1 compression, upgraded ignition controls, upgraded valvetrain, and a standalone engine management system, 300hp with a huge stable torque curve is a walk in the park. If tuned properly you could probably see 300hp on pump gas without upgrading the internals.
Porter,
I'm game...so what do you suggest as the first steps to get to 250hp (i.e. specific recommendations as to fuel and timing controls)? I've got a legit 4 wheel dyno just up the road (alteredatmosphere), and they do offer on-dyno tuning.
-Bill
p.s. taking this the next step, what are your specific recommendations re; cams, upgraded valvetrain and standalone engine management system (why do I think this will be the step that breaks the bank? )
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  #26  
Old 10-07-2003, 10:28 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: So the question is...

Quote:
Originally posted by Porter


I disagree utterly. bla bla bla 300hp.
Uh. Calm down dude. I was referring to the 500hp SVX engine. 300hp COULD be achievable, but I still say it would need boring out or some type of forced induction..... because getting an extra 70hp out of the SVX engine na?! That's going to cost a ****load.

- Ca$h
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  #27  
Old 10-07-2003, 10:36 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: So the question is...

Quote:
Originally posted by Porter
Here's one for you... you can take an otherwise stock SVX to over 250hp just with FUEL and TIMING controls. With cams, 11:1 compression, upgraded ignition controls, upgraded valvetrain, and a standalone engine management system, 300hp with a huge stable torque curve is a walk in the park. If tuned properly you could probably see 300hp on pump gas without upgrading the internals.
Actually... I disagree with you entirely.

Using the MEP theory.... to make 300hp out of 3.3 liters with a redline of 6500 rpm would require it to have a mep of 13.98, which is almost 14.

McLaren F1 - 13.70
Honda S2000 - 13.33
Suzuki GSX-R600 - 13.22

So you'd have to beat the McLaren F1. Yeah right.

However, if the engine could handle...say.... 7.5k (upgraded internals, or a fresh rebuild), then if it made 300hp the mep would only be 12.1, which I think is doable......

- Rob
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  #28  
Old 10-08-2003, 06:05 AM
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Ok, two things... with a piggyback (i.e. Unichip) or standalone (i.e. MoTeC, Haltec, Electromotive) ECU, a whole raft of options are opened up with regard to redline, soft rev limit, and high energy direct coil systems in the case of the standalone units.

The stock valvetrain is spec'd to well over 7k rpm, I see no problem with running it out to that. Our overseas members, please chime in and let us know where your stock redline is and when fuel cut kicks in, I believe it is slightly higher than the US version. Regardless, my target would be something closer to 8.5k rpm.

Personally, considering the goals, I would start by upgrading the valvetrain with lightweight valves and stronger springs. It really depends on whether you were going to build it up all at once or in stages. If I was building it in stages I would start with exhaust, and removal of the stock air box intake. Next the EGR system would come off, and while I had it apart I'd have the heads blueprinted, ported, and polished. The intake manifold would also be ported and polished to match. Personally at this stage I'd also have the car stripped and the chassis seam welded, but that's just my preference. I would probably also lighten the body and install a full roll cage tying the front and rear strut towers together. After the prep work is done, engine management and upgraded fuel delivery is in order. A parallel fuel rail would be a necessity, along with larger injectors and a baffled fuel cell. Upgraded ignition controls would be included with the ECU if going the proper route, i.e. a standalone system like the Electromotive TEC-III.

So: build the heads and valvetrain, port and polish everything, free up the intake and exhaust tracts, ensure controlled fuel and spark delivery, and take control of the system with a proper standalone engine management system. The tuning is worth probably a third of the total gain by itself once the other pieces are in place, i.e. well over 30hp... higher than that in the right system.

It's probably a $7-10k project start to finish.

Last edited by Porter; 10-08-2003 at 06:08 AM.
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  #29  
Old 10-08-2003, 07:42 AM
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Wouldnt you have to worry about the rpm limits of the accessories like the alternator, PS pump etc? I would imagine they're not rated much higher than redline.

Mike
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  #30  
Old 10-08-2003, 10:17 AM
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comparison

Just for comparison sakes. We got just over 800 horse (dyno proven) out of our 380 cubic inch race motor. It is a cheverolet design. Its N.A. and fueled by a highly tuned 850 race carburator. All aluminum, brodix block and cylinder heads (18*, sb2.2 stuff is not apicable to dirt because the torque curve is too eradic). Its honda journaled 36 lb crank shaft (gundrilled, $3500) and we run it in the 8800-9000 rpm range. You can have all this, it only cost $30,000. In our buisness you either have it or get beat by it. Motor builder is
Pro Power out of Sulivan, Wisconsin.
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