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#76
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This is what I like. You've presented an argument and backed it up with some hard facts. Now we're getting to an educated debate... You know, I used to think that skidpad figures were all there was to handling - MotorTrend in their test of a '00 SVT Lightning found 0.88g's of grip on the skid pad. However, after owning that truck for 1.5 years, I could tell you flat out that a base WRX that makes ~0.85g's on the skid pad would be able to run circles around my Lightning or former '95 Camaro at the AutoX track. Why, because of the lighter weight and lower center of gravity making it more tossable in turns, and the fact that American muscle cars/trucks have so much of their weight located infront of the front axle. To get a better idea of how your T/A would stack up at an AutoX circuit, the slalom figure is a better yard-stick to go by as it more correctly illustrates a car's transitioning ability. Looking at my 2001 Road & Track 'Sports & GT Cars' mag I get the following comparative figures for the slalom - '00 Viper GTS ACR 63.6mph (0.98g) '01 911 Turbo 67.8mph (0.96g) '01 Corvette Z06 67.1mph (1.00g) '00 BMW Z8 62.3mph (0.92g) '00 Honda S2000 65.9mph (0.90g) '00 Cobra R 63.8mph (0.99g) '01 Firebird Firehawk (w/ handling package) 61.8mph (0.88g) Why did I post these numbers? To illustrate that skidpad figures are only a small part of the big picture when it comes to handling rapid, tight transitions in the slalom or AutoX track. As you may know, power is of little value at an AutoX event as most circuits are set up in parking lots, and the max speeds reached are about 30-35mph. I've seen 390hp '03 Cobras (w/ the ind rear suspension), get slower raw times than stock Mini Cooper S' or Celica GT-S'. BTW, look at the article at the start of this thread to see just how killer the STI/EVO are in the slalom: 69.7mph & 70.1mph respectively!!! These econoboxes/ turbo'd weedwackers eat tight turns and decreasing radius corners for lunch. That's why they're so damn awesome to watch at AutoX events. And invariably when one enters an event, it wins! -Chike P.S. Let's keep this debate clean from here on. I respect you Shadow and I've always been keen to read your threads in the past about your T/A.
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"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato 2013 Cosmic Blue 5spd Evo X GSR 2006 Galaxy Gray 6MT RX-8 (sold) 2006 Steel Gray WRX TR (sold) 1996 Brilliant Red SVX L (sold) |
#77
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a WS6/SS/GTO are good bang-for-the-buck cars. the STi/EVO are good bang-for-the-buck cars. they are not really comparable because they are made for different purposes. you say "bah, why get this, when you can get that". he's why - those GM cars are completely impractical for my purposes. fun, yes. fast, yes. go in the snow, no. hold four adults, no. slice through traffic, no. seriously increase power with simple bolt-on mods, no. here is your Lingenfelter upgrade: "420 BHP/400 lbs-ft of torque Package includes: Engine removal, inspection and disassembly Lingenfelter CNC porting and polishing of cylinder heads LPE valve springs and titanium retainers Stainless steel intake and exhaust valves Three angle valve job, correct setting of spring tensions Custom designed LPE hydraulic roller camshaft Professional installation, testing and tuning Ported throttle body Port matched intake manifold Borla stainless steel exhaust system" i'd rather just slap on an exhaust, plug in the Accessport and load a new map. if i need more power (probably not), i put in a bigger turbo and load a new map. so, in conclusion, a GM muscle car is fast and good value for the money. it just isn't what i want, so stop trying to tell me it is. m'kay? thanks.
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Alan 1987 928 S4 (Black) SOLD! 1997 SVX LSi (Ebony) SOLD! 2005 Legacy GT (Silver) [Cobb Stg 2+] SOLD! 1987 928 S4 (Black) SOLD! 2005 Forester XT Premium (Crystal Gray Metallic) SOLD! 2008 Lancer Evolution X MR (Apex Silver) [Cobb Stg 1+] 2015 Outlander Sport 2.4GT AWD (Mercury Gray) 2013 G37xS (Obsidian Black) |
#78
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My car accels at the drag strip. Yours accel at AutoX events. I got that. But just like when an EVO visits a dragstrip and surprises some, when my WS6 visits the AutoX course, those EVO and STI drivers that laugh at me at the start will be sweatin beads after they see my times. I can't believe how uninformed import drivers are of American cars handling abilities. You think our cars have granite wheels and tree limbs for axles? Given what the WS6 can do with a live axle, i'd say you shouldn't brag too much about your IRS cars, because they're not as far ahead as they should be, given all the extra money and work that is put into an IRS. This will all be a moot point by spring, by then i'll have the hotckis handling package and you REALLY won't want me at the AutoX track. Quote:
I thought you were one of those people who doesn't slice through traffic because that's dangerous. One of the biggest attractions to the WS6/SS/GTO and even Mustangs is the fact that you can get serious power out of simple bolt ons. Geez that stupid SC Cobra can see almost 500hp with a new exhaust and SC pulley. Simply putting on a Headers-back exhaust and a high-flow intake airlid and Maf on a stock WS6 will yield another 50 horsepower. That's about $1000 for 50 horsepower. Is there anything you can do to the STI for $1000 or less and get 50hp? Without annihilating the engine, I can't think of any. I never told you a GM muscle car is what you need. I did say however, that you DON'T need a $35,000 glorified economy car. Last edited by Shadow248; 09-19-2004 at 11:30 AM. |
#79
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On an EVO/STI, a simple $300 ECU reflash coupled with a $40 manual boost controller, can result in an increase of over 60 reliable horsepower at all four wheels. Add in a $200 downpipe, and a $50 cat delete pipe and that figure can climb by another 30hp. And remember, this is all work that you can do yourself w/o having to remove the heads from your motor and having it in a shop for a week. Lightly modded EVOs (with less than $2500 invested) run the 1/4 in the low 12's. Heavily modded evos with over 10K in mods have been featured in Sport Compact Car and run the 1/4 in low 11s... -Chike
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"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato 2013 Cosmic Blue 5spd Evo X GSR 2006 Galaxy Gray 6MT RX-8 (sold) 2006 Steel Gray WRX TR (sold) 1996 Brilliant Red SVX L (sold) |
#80
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Alan 1987 928 S4 (Black) SOLD! 1997 SVX LSi (Ebony) SOLD! 2005 Legacy GT (Silver) [Cobb Stg 2+] SOLD! 1987 928 S4 (Black) SOLD! 2005 Forester XT Premium (Crystal Gray Metallic) SOLD! 2008 Lancer Evolution X MR (Apex Silver) [Cobb Stg 1+] 2015 Outlander Sport 2.4GT AWD (Mercury Gray) 2013 G37xS (Obsidian Black) |
#81
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I'm trying to remain nuetral. All I pointed out was the American's lack of decent mid size cars as a larger picture of their faults. You both have made good and bad comments. I think though Shark's last is a very accurate one. Name another car for $35k that can do what a STi can. Carry 4 people, a couple of golf bags, get close to 20mpg, and do it in ALL kinds of weather. I respect the T/A, but a Supra Turbo is just as fast with a turbo 6. In SCC they have runs articles with a bunch of 1000+hp Supras. I still have the issue with the 1156hp 300ZX Turbo. I'm sure you can get a T/A with that kind of power. Different paths to the same goal. But I would say a GT-R is a better representative from the 2 door stable as it has massive power and AWD.
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#82
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So to summarize my long-winded response, doing anything to those engines that increases boost is not what anyone would consider a reliable way to increase power. Quote:
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All of these offer more comfort, all weather ability, and more space: Infiniti G35 sedan: Fully equipped it can be had for well under $35k and that gets you more interior room, much better appointments, and a better, quieter ride. Yes, it is AWD. Plus you don't have to pay for maintenance on a quirky turbo motor. Too much? Try a Maxima. Acura TL: Fully equipped it falls right around $35k and get's you all the premium appointments just like the G35, but in case you have a problem with nissan, here's a honda. Too much? Try an accord. Pontiac G6: Fully loaded and AWD it falls just under $30k with leather, a premium sound system, a 260hp 3.9L V6, and a really nifty retractable roof. I know you don't care because it's a GM product and therefore is not good enough for you. But I highly suggest this one for the day you realize your wrong. All of these cars can do 0-60 in about 6 seconds, and you don't have to worry about high maintenance motors. I'm sure there are more, even better suggestions, but I have other things to do. So there you go. Quote:
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Another important note, the supras have major low-end torque deficits. They are highway warriors, but can't hang from a dig. There's a guy on LS1tech with a 900hp built Supra TT and a 650hp Supercharged Camaro SS. His Camaro easily edges out the Supra. A 650hp LS1 can break into high 10's. The Supra needs nearly 1000hp to do that. Quote:
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#83
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my eyes !! i think i have read books in the time it took me to read all this crap.
i have a wrx !! your hurting my feelings here LOL. whatever you guys are reading from,, are just magazines and there all biased in some way ,, just fyi
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2008 evo x with sss package 430 hp 380 torque stock turbo with basic bolt ons 12.56 @ 109 fully weighted 3,500 lbs |
#84
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This entire arguement boils down to what you consider a sports car. my personal definition would include rally based cars.. seeing as how rally is a sport.... anywho I like both.. however after driving a new GTO, and a friends trans am (some special version.. have no idea which one) I'm more impressed with the WRXs, and EVO's..
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Greg 97 Red SVX LSi clean 96 Black SVX LSi beater 90 Red Eclipse GSX track ho 99 Ford F250 work horse My Locker |
#85
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If GM realized that bigger motors, not forced induction is better, why do the use Superchargers on many of thier models? ION, Bonneville, Grand Prix, Park Avenue Ultra, Monte Carlo SS, etc.. If the G6 will have AWD and 260hp then that sounds like a step in the right direction. The best car you listed is the G35. I love that car. But if you put a G35x Sedan up against a STi you will still be comparing apples and oranges. The STi is much quicker. If you want a great highway runner, the G35x might be the heir apperant to our beloved SVX with more room. It comes down to what you want. GM decided it didn't want to stay in the muscle car game, we didn't. Actually we did by not buying them. The rustang lives and the Camaro doesn't, and I'm sad. But the GTO isn't a muscle car yet, and people don't see it as one yet. That may change. The Vette is a sports car. The T/A never was. A Boxster is a sports car, and the STi will never be one.
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#86
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Hey you should be the last one complaining about support...most of the people on this site are on your side. I'm the one with hurt feelings because my car gets made fun of everyday. I know it's just stupidity and that's why i'm here. I agree with your last point, but how else do we compare cars? I really hesitated to use Car&Driver because they are one of the most biased magazines out there, but they had some of the best things to say about the STI and EVO. So it gave you the benefit of the doubt. Quote:
One question, how long has the EVO MR been available? Not long. Let's wait and see about reliability at that pressure. Quote:
It is true that the majority of F-bodies sold were V6s. It's what kept the car alive so long. It was supposed to be axed for the 1989 model year. Same with the Mustang. If not for the cheapo V6 car, it would have been axed in 1987. Quote:
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#87
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I think the 400hp GTO might be nice, but it's SO bland. I'd love to get an Audi S4. It was mind blowing fast from the passenger seat, had world class interior, AWD, and was rolling $ex appeal to the ladies. Especially in black. I loved my afternoon in that car. Of course it was closer to $60k then $40k. Shame the German cars are so expensive, they kill everything else out there. Audi, BMW, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz are all great cars. I'm not so impressed with Volkswagen anymore. I know they own Audi, but sit in both and you'll see the price difference. Maybe a R32. But it's not a sports car either. $35k, AWD, and over 250hp, in a convienant hatchback body. Under $40k I'd still pick a STi as it can go fast but still has a usable back seat. I couldn't imagine putting a car seat in a T/A. A Legacy GT with some mods would be a 300+hp mid size with AWD. You'd still be under $35k. Shadow you have any firm info on the G6? Sounds like GM might actually be on to something. The ION is a POS. Even when S/C'd.
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#88
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how abought a audi rs6 =>
audi has been dominating in the worlds sport car class on speed vision gt cars,, hell i dunno what class one of them LOL
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2008 evo x with sss package 430 hp 380 torque stock turbo with basic bolt ons 12.56 @ 109 fully weighted 3,500 lbs |
#89
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For the money, the STI and EVO are tough to beat in the 30-35K price range. I love the G35 sedans/coupes, but they are more comfy cruisers, than all out track ready cars. To each their own. My wife wants a Lexus RX330 to haul the family around in comfortably. I just need a four door with a backseat for odd trips. She doesn't care if my car has a rock-hard suspension or not as she knows I'm into drag racing and AutoX. -Chike
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"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato 2013 Cosmic Blue 5spd Evo X GSR 2006 Galaxy Gray 6MT RX-8 (sold) 2006 Steel Gray WRX TR (sold) 1996 Brilliant Red SVX L (sold) |
#90
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Shadows recommendations:
G35 AWD sedan: i know many like the styling, but i don't. NA, difficult to increase power, brakes aren't going to cut it for what i want. the closest (not really) to what you think i should get. Maxima: FWD - not an option, NA Acura TL/Honda Accord - see Maxima Pontiac G6 - nowhere on Pontiac's website does it say its available with AWD (traction control is not even close). 200hp from 3.5L? i already have 230hp from 3.3L i'm not looking for heated seats and steering wheel, GPS, DVD, or powered trunklids. i want 300+hp, easily upgradeable power, hand-of-God brakes, AWD, and airconditioning. hello, STi! the auto/driver controlled center differential, cool Defi gauges, intercooler sprayer, etc. are cool, though.
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Alan 1987 928 S4 (Black) SOLD! 1997 SVX LSi (Ebony) SOLD! 2005 Legacy GT (Silver) [Cobb Stg 2+] SOLD! 1987 928 S4 (Black) SOLD! 2005 Forester XT Premium (Crystal Gray Metallic) SOLD! 2008 Lancer Evolution X MR (Apex Silver) [Cobb Stg 1+] 2015 Outlander Sport 2.4GT AWD (Mercury Gray) 2013 G37xS (Obsidian Black) |
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