Tokyo Auto Show: Toyota-Subaru Coupe breaks cover

[BoxerFanatic]

Here's the Toyota version... Subaru version still under cover. RWD, and Subaru Boxer 4-cyl powered.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/06/t...k-the-hachiro/


Autoblog Gallery Toyota FT86

Certainly no SVX replacement, that is for sure.

What does this portend for the Subaru variant, do you think?

[SubaRyu]

The new concept from toyota, powered by Subaru boxer engine.
Wonder if they sell this car as Subaru too.

http://jalopnik.com/5375233/toyota-f...d-the-new-ae86

[BoxerFanatic]

D 'oh!!!!

we posted it at the same time!

[sperry]

Well, the motor is likely in-line with or behind the front axle, so it's unlikely there will be an AWD variant. But a turbo version of the car could be likely if there's a Subaru branded version.

If Toyota leans their version to the sports-car market, and Subaru leans theirs to the GT market, I could see both cars selling. I'd prefer a grand tourer in the tradition of the SVX myself... especially if they can figure out how to cram AWD into it.

[BoxerFanatic]

Agreed with all of those points, save the possibility of the subaru version being a GT.

but I am not sure how much Grand Touring will fit into a car barely bigger than a Miata, and MUCH shorter than an impreza.

But I am wholly on board with them coming out with a new SVX successor otherwise. Maybe on a slightly widened and lengthened, and lower version of the GR Impreza chassis.

[bheinen74]

hybrid electric assist for the AWD part time...at a push of a button.

[Sean486]

I like the car. Can't wait to see the Subi version, but I wouldn't buy it unless it was AWD.

[BoxerFanatic]

Originally Posted by bheinen74

hybrid electric assist for the AWD part time...at a push of a button.

I hope not.

Batteries and electric motors for the front drive (as it will be in front of the engine... rear drive is mechanical on this car...) will bulk up the weight.

It is disappointing enough that it sounds like the horsepower target of this car has been dropped from 200-220 down to 160, to be an "eco-car" anyway.

I wish this "green" stuff would fade away already, and let producers come out with honestly good, real-world products that aren't hampered by social activism fads.

is a car with 160hp that you have to keep your foot planted to the floor to make the thing move, honestly more efficient than if the engine is capable of more than 100hp/liter, and would facilitate less aggressive use of the throttle in normal driving for this type of car?

Sometimes bigger, torquier motors produce more efficient results by not being constantly at their limits during a use cycle.

I was really psyched for this little Toyota/Subaru coupe until I heard it was going to be basically a RWD bone thrown to the economy car crowd, to try and snag a few enthusiasts with the driveline and handling promise of said RWD...

Honestly, this is what new cars are coming to... they either build "eco-cars", or retro muscle that weighs twice as much, with 3-4 times the power.

They either build things very small, like this, and the BMW 1-series, or they build things like Honda Crosstour/VDX, and BMW X6/5-series GT that are behemoths needlessly, without the practical advantages of a boxier SUV, like cargo and towing.

Yet middle of the road, modest, good looking cars like 2005-2009 Legacy and Outback get bloated, ugly, and de-contented, and look ever more like a Camry/Accord appliance-mobile, and the new Outback is as big or bigger than Tribeca, and Impreza gets uglier with each iteration.

Forester looks good, but doesn't have the drivetrains that one would want in a more modest SUV... if one wanted a modest SUV. no manual or 5-speed auto with the turbo. No H6 at all, no turbo-diesel with some torque.

And hardly anyone builds a decent Grand Touring Coupe anymore, besides the Infiniti G37, or maybe the new Genesis 3.8 V6... or you go over 40K base MSRP for Audi or BMW. G37 is nearly there also.

Ford has one non-FWD coupe... the retro-muscle Mustang. No T-bird, no Cougar, no Probe GT, no Capri, no Lincoln Mark IX, nothing but live-axle hooliganism.

GM and Chrysler have NOTHING, similarly, aside from similarly retroactive Camaro and Challenger, both at nearly or above 4000lbs of curb weight.

Honda no longer has an NSX or Prelude. Civic? please...

Nissan at least has the aforementioned Infiniti G coupe.

Toyota has nothing... and their answer is this little eco-car, which has potential, but I think will either be an economy-car or a tuner/drifter aftermarket darling, and difficult to turn into a more accommodating real-world coupe. I don't think it is going to be an acceptable successor for SVX. If it does well, it might succeed the 2.5RS.

So... for the SVX enthusiast... someone who likes performance, likes looks, but values sophistication and quality, as well... I find myself looking out at field of new cars, and finding very little appealing.

We either get little economy "greenies"...

or we get people trying to convince us that 4000+lb 5-door SUVs with a slicked back roofline should be called a "coupe"... which I find insulting to my intelligence...

and maybe one or two other options on the market.

I may not be buying today. But what will I buy in a few years? when SVXs are all the more rare to find and support... and I am looking for a late-model used car. Or if I somehow get a big promotion, and want to buy a new car directly...

Are G37 and Genesis really the only non-FWD options out there? Is this little Toyota/Subaru going to be something I will even be able to consider on it's merits?

[Green1995SVX]

I hope those wheels are 5x114.3.

[bheinen74]

160hp boxer is fine when you have 1000kilowatt hp to assist.
search white zombie on youtube, you will see what electric does. it can blow the doors off if they design it with electro motor.

[viking64]

I kinda like it - this is a bit small ala corolla size, hard to tell from the pictures. Not too worried as a Toyota I would'nt buy one anyway - too plain/vanilla to my liking.
Really looking forward to see what Subaru come up with - as long as they don't hit it with the ugly stick with bug eye headlights & stuff.
Engine bay looks big enough to get a 2.5 turbo in there, but sadly a ez3.0 ain't going to fit.
Definitly AWD, VTD will give the Subie the edge on the Toyota surely - as long as it does not get too heavy

bruce

[sperry]

Originally Posted by viking64

I kinda like it - this is a bit small ala corolla size, hard to tell from the pictures. Not too worried as a Toyota I would'nt buy one anyway - too plain/vanilla to my liking.
Really looking forward to see what Subaru come up with - as long as they don't hit it with the ugly stick with bug eye headlights & stuff.
Engine bay looks big enough to get a 2.5 turbo in there, but sadly a ez3.0 ain't going to fit.
Definitly AWD, VTD will give the Subie the edge on the Toyota surely - as long as it does not get too heavy

bruce

The EZ motors are basically the same size as the EJ motors. Only the EG33 is significantly larger than the H4 motors because it's an EJ22 with an extra pair of cylinders grafted onto it. The other H6 motors all have basically the same footprint as the H4's, they've just got 6 small-ish cylinders instead of 4 big ones.

[subbieatnz]

I want it. be cool if it has DI in it

[Landshark]

Originally Posted by BoxerFanatic

I hope not.

Batteries and electric motors for the front drive (as it will be in front of the engine... rear drive is mechanical on this car...) will bulk up the weight.

It is disappointing enough that it sounds like the horsepower target of this car has been dropped from 200-220 down to 160, to be an "eco-car" anyway.

I wish this "green" stuff would fade away already, and let producers come out with honestly good, real-world products that aren't hampered by social activism fads.

is a car with 160hp that you have to keep your foot planted to the floor to make the thing move, honestly more efficient than if the engine is capable of more than 100hp/liter, and would facilitate less aggressive use of the throttle in normal driving for this type of car?

Sometimes bigger, torquier motors produce more efficient results by not being constantly at their limits during a use cycle.

I was really psyched for this little Toyota/Subaru coupe until I heard it was going to be basically a RWD bone thrown to the economy car crowd, to try and snag a few enthusiasts with the driveline and handling promise of said RWD...

Honestly, this is what new cars are coming to... they either build "eco-cars", or retro muscle that weighs twice as much, with 3-4 times the power.

They either build things very small, like this, and the BMW 1-series, or they build things like Honda Crosstour/VDX, and BMW X6/5-series GT that are behemoths needlessly, without the practical advantages of a boxier SUV, like cargo and towing.

Yet middle of the road, modest, good looking cars like 2005-2009 Legacy and Outback get bloated, ugly, and de-contented, and look ever more like a Camry/Accord appliance-mobile, and the new Outback is as big or bigger than Tribeca, and Impreza gets uglier with each iteration.

Forester looks good, but doesn't have the drivetrains that one would want in a more modest SUV... if one wanted a modest SUV. no manual or 5-speed auto with the turbo. No H6 at all, no turbo-diesel with some torque.

And hardly anyone builds a decent Grand Touring Coupe anymore, besides the Infiniti G37, or maybe the new Genesis 3.8 V6... or you go over 40K base MSRP for Audi or BMW. G37 is nearly there also.

Ford has one non-FWD coupe... the retro-muscle Mustang. No T-bird, no Cougar, no Probe GT, no Capri, no Lincoln Mark IX, nothing but live-axle hooliganism.

GM and Chrysler have NOTHING, similarly, aside from similarly retroactive Camaro and Challenger, both at nearly or above 4000lbs of curb weight.

Honda no longer has an NSX or Prelude. Civic? please...

Nissan at least has the aforementioned Infiniti G coupe.

Toyota has nothing... and their answer is this little eco-car, which has potential, but I think will either be an economy-car or a tuner/drifter aftermarket darling, and difficult to turn into a more accommodating real-world coupe. I don't think it is going to be an acceptable successor for SVX. If it does well, it might succeed the 2.5RS.

So... for the SVX enthusiast... someone who likes performance, likes looks, but values sophistication and quality, as well... I find myself looking out at field of new cars, and finding very little appealing.

We either get little economy "greenies"...

or we get people trying to convince us that 4000+lb 5-door SUVs with a slicked back roofline should be called a "coupe"... which I find insulting to my intelligence...

and maybe one or two other options on the market.

I may not be buying today. But what will I buy in a few years? when SVXs are all the more rare to find and support... and I am looking for a late-model used car. Or if I somehow get a big promotion, and want to buy a new car directly...

Are G37 and Genesis really the only non-FWD options out there? Is this little Toyota/Subaru going to be something I will even be able to consider on it's merits?

i hear ya - there's lots of cars i'd like to buy, but something is missing from most of them - either they are not AWD, huge and overweight, goofy-looking, underpowered, or not available in an auto/SMG transmission. EVO X MR is the closest thing to what i'm looking for, but there don't seem to be any around here in a 200 mile radius.

Originally Posted by Green1995SVX

I hope those wheels are 5x114.3.

[BoxerFanatic]

Originally Posted by bheinen74

160hp boxer is fine when you have 1000kilowatt hp to assist.
search white zombie on youtube, you will see what electric does. it can blow the doors off if they design it with electro motor.

Electric motors aren't the problem. Electric motors have some very good characteristics, assuming that they magically have all the current they want to use, readily at hand.

The electrical energy storage facility on board to POWER an electric motor tends to add weight, complexity, usage issues, eventual cyclic depletion, and charge time vs. run time logistical issues.

Batteries weigh a fair amount. Electric cars take time to re-charge and have somewhat limited range. Hybrid cars increase complexity and weight. Not as big of a problem on a vehicle that is already big and heavy. On a small, lightweight car, the variation has a larger effect when adding complexity.

Raising efficiency and output of the same mechanical internal combustion power unit to what it is capable of outputting, and then properly gearing it to be under-driven at cruise, without being drastically bogged down... doesn't add weight.