Anyone plan on buying a Turbo Diesel Legacy

[huck369]

I want one of thos motors to stick in my Brat...if it'll get 50 mpg in that Outback cow, it ought to get 70 mpg in my Brat

[dcarrb]

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

This is the primary reason why all of Europe are turning to turbodiesel engines, which give a genuine 50mpg.

I wonder if they'll be as thrifty once they've been, as the article put it, modified to meet "the more stringent U.S. standards." Are European "standards" that much more lax than those in the U.S.?

Yes, the cost of delivered goods is what makes these fuel price spikes so insidious. One can't just say, well, the price of this or that thing has gone up a bit so I won't buy it. The cost of EVERYTHING increases.

Subarus have never been fuel economy champs. One thing that's so amazing about the SVX is that I get an honest 21+ MPG on average (mostly a cold-transmission commute) , and my old 1.8, 5-speed-manual GL never did a whole lot better.

dcb

[SVX92-97]

I heard a report this morning on TV that the reason Diesel fuel is so expensive is because its used by most vehicles in other countrys and there has become a bigger demand for it. They showed a trucker from a local company here who doesnt have to flip the bill for his own fuel, putting in 60 gallons for a whopping $247 This whole gas thing is gotten so ridiculous, that every price increase is always driven up by speculation. Lets see, oops there is a Hurricane off the coast of Africa, better raise prices Im so sick of all their lame excuses.

[svxistentialist]

Originally Posted by dcarrb

I wonder if they'll be as thrifty once they've been, as the article put it, modified to meet "the more stringent U.S. standards." Are European "standards" that much more lax than those in the U.S.?

Yes, the cost of delivered goods is what makes these fuel price spikes so insidious. One can't just say, well, the price of this or that thing has gone up a bit so I won't buy it. The cost of EVERYTHING increases.

Subarus have never been fuel economy champs. One thing that's so amazing about the SVX is that I get an honest 21+ MPG on average (mostly a cold-transmission commute) , and my old 1.8, 5-speed-manual GL never did a whole lot better.

dcb

They will Darren. More stringent is a bit of a myth in some ways. Because diesels are so economical their output of CO2 greenhouse gas is way lower than a petrol car.

Diesel engines give off more Nox and particulates than petrol engines do. They get around this by using cleaner cats and by using particulate filters. The filter is an expensive replacement at about 60,000 miles, but does a good job.

You will find that the current crop of uber-efficient turbodiesels are a heck of a lot cleaner than what your US trucks and buses and probably cars currently manage. I would imagine they are not marketing these best of breed engines to the States because you guys traditionally prefer petrol, and also because they are unable to make enough of them to fill the demand for them in Europe, where our fuel prices are double what you fellows are paying.

Joe

[WestCoastSVX]

Good points, Joe. Just read a review on Sunday of a new Mercedes model hitting the states this month with the turbo diesel and they went into depth about how popular diesels are in Europe, and how these new ones are cleaner, more economical, last longer and are more powerful than their gas counterparts.

I just recently realized the cost of diesel here was a lot higher and was surprised as the last time I checked (admittedly a few years ago), it was the lowest price on the pump. No woner all our goods are going up in price, the fuel it is all shipped with is going up even worse then the gas I use!

On this proposed Legacy, more than just the cost of fuel to take into account (if diesel remains higher priced). The 4 cylinder turbo diesel would likely be at LEAST as powerful as the H6 model, if not more. While getting far better gas mileage than the 4 cylinder model and putting less bad stuff into the environment. And if Subaru does it right, the diesel would be far more reliable and long lasting.

[WestCoastSVX]

Originally Posted by ensteele

Diesel is $4.50 or more here in WA State. My Outback get 26 - 27mpg and the diesel might get 40 - 45 mpg. Still won't make it pay to get one.

Actually, if you compare gas prices/economy only, it would.

Never leave it open for an analyst to start looking at figures.

Assuming regular unleaded is $3.50/gal and diesel is $4.50/gal
Assuming 4 cylinder gets 27mpg and TD4 gets 45mpg

1,000 miles - H4 uses 37 gallons @ $3.50/gal = $129.63
1,000 miles - TD4 uses 22 gallons @ $4.50/gal = $100.00
1,000 miles trip Turbo Diesel saves almost $30

30,000 miles - H4 uses 1,111 gallons @ $3.50/gal = $3,888.89
30,000 miles - TD4 uses 667 gallons @ $4.50/gal = $3,000.00
30,000 miles of use the Turbo Diesel has saved almost $900

60,000 miles - H4 uses 2,222 gallons @ $3.50/gal = $7,777.78
60,000 miles - TD4 uses 1,333 gallons @ $4.50/gal = $6,000.00
60,000 miles of use the Turbo Diesel has saved almost $1,800

Keep in mind, these savings are all just a bonus, just a little something to pay for the new filter every 60K miles and eventually make up for the higher price of the car.

You are getting the performance of the top end model, while comparing it against a 4 cylinder econo model.

And just imagine if they ever did revert back to the original pricing where diesel was lower?

[PaulDexler]

The new breed of diesels have not been available here because the largest markets, California and the five Northeast states, have more stringent limits on NOX output. There are various ways to clean this up, but they have proven expensive to engineer. Mercedes in their Bluetec models uses a controlled injection of a urea solution in the exhaust stream to do the job. The tank on the car needs to be refilled every 10,000 miles, at a regular service. All kinds of lights and warnings will go off to make sure it gets done. The solution will probably be available in the aftermarket, as other manufacturers are looking at that method of solving the problem. VW and BMW come to mind.

Two years ago, I had the opportunity to drive the previous generation of a Mercedes diesel on a 1,000 mile test trip. I have owned several MB diesels in the past, and put up with the smoke, odor, and relatively low performance because of the outstanding fuel economy and reliability. The E320 CDI I drove on that trip was one of the new generation diesels, even if not the latest. (It had an in-line six under the hood, the new ones are V-6s.) There was no noise, inside or out, to give away the fact that it had Dr. Diesel's engine under the hood instead of Eng. Otto's. And OK, it had less horsepower than the gasoline six in the standard E320, but it had almost twice the torque. Which meant that it moved off the line right smartly. I drove it from my home in Los Angeles to my friend's house in San Francisco, a distance of 420 miles. I then drove it around the San Francisco area for four days, in the worst possible traffic conditions. (Stop signs on every corner, heavy traffic, and steep hills.) I topped it off before leaving to return home, and I had averaged abut 30 mpg. I topped it off again just before returning it, and it had averaged about 35 mpg on the highway trip home. This was not an econobox, but a large, heavy mid-size sedan, with automatic transmission.

Mercedes touts 4-cylinder economy with V-8 performance for its new diesels, and I won't dispute that. It would be neat if Subaru could do that too, with its new diesel.

Paul

[bwb3]

A friend just bought the Mercedes ML320 with the Bluetec diesel. The V6 produces 210 hp, similar to the gas, but 400 lb.-ft. torque at 1600 - 2400 rpm. Quite an impressive ride. Can get the same engine in the Jeep.
Gene

[Hondasucks]

Originally Posted by MacGyver

Actually, if you compare gas prices/economy only, it would.

Never leave it open for an analyst to start looking at figures.

Assuming regular unleaded is $3.50/gal and diesel is $4.50/gal
Assuming 4 cylinder gets 27mpg and TD4 gets 45mpg

1,000 miles - H4 uses 37 gallons @ $3.50/gal = $129.63
1,000 miles - TD4 uses 22 gallons @ $4.50/gal = $100.00
1,000 miles trip Turbo Diesel saves almost $30

30,000 miles - H4 uses 1,111 gallons @ $3.50/gal = $3,888.89
30,000 miles - TD4 uses 667 gallons @ $4.50/gal = $3,000.00
30,000 miles of use the Turbo Diesel has saved almost $900

60,000 miles - H4 uses 2,222 gallons @ $3.50/gal = $7,777.78
60,000 miles - TD4 uses 1,333 gallons @ $4.50/gal = $6,000.00
60,000 miles of use the Turbo Diesel has saved almost $1,800

Keep in mind, these savings are all just a bonus, just a little something to pay for the new filter every 60K miles and eventually make up for the higher price of the car.

You are getting the performance of the top end model, while comparing it against a 4 cylinder econo model.

And just imagine if they ever did revert back to the original pricing where diesel was lower?

You also have to consider the fact there is less to go wrong on a diesel, and less maintenance items, although the gap is becoming narrower with diesels getting more and more electronics. My 82 Rabbit Diesel had a fuel filter, an air filter, and oil & filter to worry about, although the only thing electronic on it was the two switches that controlled the upshift light on the dash, and the control unit that controlled the glow plugs. I think diesels would be more popular here if General Motors had not attempted to enter the diesel passenger car market in the 80s ... Would be nice to see Subaru bring the diesel here, since at the moment only VW and Mercedes offer diesels in the US passenger car market, although now that I think about it, I think the BMW turbo diesel is available here now too.

[Royal Tiger]

Diesel here is over $4, with regular at $3.15 or so.

Diesel costs more because US refineries make 50% Gasoline out of a barrel, and only 20-25% diesel. Making 40/40 gas/diesel, would require millions in retooling. Car & Driver or Automobile had a very nicely done story about it. Most European refineries are set up 50% diesel, 20& gasoline.

[svxistentialist]

That is interesting all right Dan.

It's a bit of a Catch 22 or chicken and egg situation, isn't it?

Diesel is the more efficient fuel, but is more expensive because the refineries make too low a percentage of it, and demand for it is rising. The higher the demand, the more expensive it will get.

Meantime, back on the ranch, all goods deliveries are rising in price because the primary delivery fuel is being made in too small a quantity. Plus the economy is taking a nosedive. I wonder why?

It hardly requires a degree in economics to see what needs to be done here. The refineries, or some percentage of them, should be forced by central government to up-scale diesel output on a phased in basis.

Unless of course those oil refinery people have somebody close to the top in government who would help them resist change that might cost them money.

[huck369]

Even stranger is that Diesel takes "Less" refining, and overall costs "Less" to make....but they charge "More" for it....

[Speedklix]

Originally Posted by MacGyver

Actually, if you compare gas prices/economy only, it would.

using that math to achieve the miles I've driven the past couple years (3ish) in only 3 of my cars, I would've blown in excess of $20k

[Landshark]

not as many diesel pumps around and lack/limited amount of aftermarket support for a Subaru diesel engine is a no-buy for me.

i'll continue paying out the ass for premium.

fun and availability > gas price

[Royal Tiger]

Originally Posted by huck369

Even stranger is that Diesel takes "Less" refining, and overall costs "Less" to make....but they charge "More" for it....

They charge "more" because there is less of it, and the demand is rising. Besides all the heavy trucks, the recent VW and M-B successes with diesel, plus more people turning to diesel in 3/4 and 1 ton pick-ups makes it in less available quantities, and US refineries can not make more of it. It's not like they choose to make less diesel, it's the way the equipment is designed and set up.