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  #16  
Old 08-28-2013, 07:29 AM
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Re: Oil filter revisited

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Originally Posted by svxfiles View Post
Oil pan

Oil strainer

Oil pump rotor-Relief valve

Oil filter-Bypass valve

Cylinder block right hand main gallery

Oil pressurs switch-*-journal1-journal5-journal6-journal7-cylindar head RH cylindar block LH main gallery

Journal2-journal3-journal4-cylindar head LH




The * is the position of the mechanical oil pressure gauge.
Can I go back to sleep now?


FSM, Sections 2&3, Lubrication2-4 Page3
Good god you are cranky when you wake up!

EDIT

So I found that chapter in the FSM and discovered a few tidbits. First, and foremost, they specify a filter with a 23psi bypass!!!!!!!! So the filters that some books/websites suggest for our car have BPVs that are actually too low and the L30165 is acytually closer to what we want! I suggest looking into the BPV specs for the filters you are using. For example, Amazon AND the Purolator site both suggest the Purolator L14459 for the SVX whereas the L14460 is actually the filter with the correct bypass pressure. They are physically identical in terms of form and fit. I believe the Bosch 3312 also has a lower bypass pressure. I am not sure about the others. And, again, I'm not sure how much any of this matters. But, if it does, we probably should identify the filters that fit and have the proper BPV rating.

I also now have some pump specifications to work with. And, of course, I have the schematic of the flow. I will do some playing at lunch time with excel!
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1996 Polo Green Subaru SVX LSi, 168,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF, Redline 75W90 gear oil, K&N HP-4001 Oil Filter, Mobil 1 5W50 FS (3qt) and 5W30 High Mileage (4qt) Oil Blend, Motul RBF600 Brake Fluid, AC Delco A975C Air Filter, NGK BKR6EIX-11 plugs, Centric Rotors, Power Stop Evolution Carbon Fiber Ceramic Brake Pads
2005 Gray Acura RL, 165,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF with Lubegard Platinum Protectant, Mobil 1 5W20 High Mileage Extended Performance Oil
2009 Red Toyota Venza, 123,XXX, Mobil 1 5W30 High Mileage Oil
1992 Red Ferrari 348 ts, 82,XXX, Redline everything

Last edited by Huskymaniac; 08-28-2013 at 09:27 AM.
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  #17  
Old 08-28-2013, 11:25 AM
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Re: Oil filter revisited

Tom,

I almost have the spreadsheet done. I only need an estimate of the engine's resistance to oil flow. If you can give me your pressure readings a couple of different RPMs and give me a rough guess at the oil temp and tell me what oil you are using, I can estimate the flow resistance.

Tony

I'll tell you what, this really shows one reason why it is downright idiotic to romp on your car when it is still running cold in the winter. Oil does not flow well at 0C and below and you quickly reach the pump's capacity for generating the pressure needed to get the desired flow rate. Add that to other factors like metal parts still being highly contracted, leading to lower pressure on certain gaskets and seals, and you really risk causing some damage by beating on a cold car.
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1996 Polo Green Subaru SVX LSi, 168,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF, Redline 75W90 gear oil, K&N HP-4001 Oil Filter, Mobil 1 5W50 FS (3qt) and 5W30 High Mileage (4qt) Oil Blend, Motul RBF600 Brake Fluid, AC Delco A975C Air Filter, NGK BKR6EIX-11 plugs, Centric Rotors, Power Stop Evolution Carbon Fiber Ceramic Brake Pads
2005 Gray Acura RL, 165,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF with Lubegard Platinum Protectant, Mobil 1 5W20 High Mileage Extended Performance Oil
2009 Red Toyota Venza, 123,XXX, Mobil 1 5W30 High Mileage Oil
1992 Red Ferrari 348 ts, 82,XXX, Redline everything
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  #18  
Old 08-28-2013, 11:36 AM
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Re: Oil filter revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskymaniac View Post
I'll tell you what, this really shows one reason why it is downright idiotic to romp on your car when it is still running cold in the winter. Oil does not flow well at 0C and below and you quickly reach the pump's capacity for generating the pressure needed to get the desired flow rate. Add that to other factors like metal parts still being highly contracted, leading to lower pressure on certain gaskets and seals, and you really risk causing some damage by beating on a cold car.
What if it's an engine/car I don't care if it blows up, then what?
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  #19  
Old 08-28-2013, 11:41 AM
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Re: Oil filter revisited

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What if it's an engine/car I don't care if it blows up, then what?
Find the bottom of a long, steep hill. Park your car at the bottom, facing the hill, on a night where it will get below zero. The next morning, get in, start the engine and immediate floor it. Repeat until a rod comes through the block.
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1996 Polo Green Subaru SVX LSi, 168,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF, Redline 75W90 gear oil, K&N HP-4001 Oil Filter, Mobil 1 5W50 FS (3qt) and 5W30 High Mileage (4qt) Oil Blend, Motul RBF600 Brake Fluid, AC Delco A975C Air Filter, NGK BKR6EIX-11 plugs, Centric Rotors, Power Stop Evolution Carbon Fiber Ceramic Brake Pads
2005 Gray Acura RL, 165,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF with Lubegard Platinum Protectant, Mobil 1 5W20 High Mileage Extended Performance Oil
2009 Red Toyota Venza, 123,XXX, Mobil 1 5W30 High Mileage Oil
1992 Red Ferrari 348 ts, 82,XXX, Redline everything
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  #20  
Old 08-28-2013, 11:46 AM
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Re: Oil filter revisited

Here is a plot of typical freezing point pressure drops across a variety of filters, similar to the oversized filter we use. It is for a generic 5W30 oil. I believe the Ultragaurd filter used is/was a synthetic filter similar to what you now find in Amsoil, Royal Purple and the synthetic Purolator filters.

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1996 Polo Green Subaru SVX LSi, 168,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF, Redline 75W90 gear oil, K&N HP-4001 Oil Filter, Mobil 1 5W50 FS (3qt) and 5W30 High Mileage (4qt) Oil Blend, Motul RBF600 Brake Fluid, AC Delco A975C Air Filter, NGK BKR6EIX-11 plugs, Centric Rotors, Power Stop Evolution Carbon Fiber Ceramic Brake Pads
2005 Gray Acura RL, 165,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF with Lubegard Platinum Protectant, Mobil 1 5W20 High Mileage Extended Performance Oil
2009 Red Toyota Venza, 123,XXX, Mobil 1 5W30 High Mileage Oil
1992 Red Ferrari 348 ts, 82,XXX, Redline everything
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  #21  
Old 08-28-2013, 01:29 PM
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Re: Oil filter revisited

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Originally Posted by Huskymaniac View Post
So it's an art exhibit, is it?
I looked it up actually because I was curious. "gallery" is correct, and "galley" is probably a misspelling/contraction that became widely used.

Least fun "fun fact" ever, I know.
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  #22  
Old 08-30-2013, 03:27 AM
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Re: Oil filter revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskymaniac View Post
Tom,

I almost have the spreadsheet done. I only need an estimate of the engine's resistance to oil flow. If you can give me your pressure readings a couple of different RPMs and give me a rough guess at the oil temp and tell me what oil you are using, I can estimate the flow resistance.

Tony

I'll tell you what, this really shows one reason why it is downright idiotic to romp on your car when it is still running cold in the winter. Oil does not flow well at 0C and below and you quickly reach the pump's capacity for generating the pressure needed to get the desired flow rate. Add that to other factors like metal parts still being highly contracted, leading to lower pressure on certain gaskets and seals, and you really risk causing some damage by beating on a cold car.

I will get you those numbers but I have to replace the gauge first.
Apparently hard mounting of a mechanical oil pressure gauge on a supercharged engine does not lend itself to long gauge life. sigh
I can tell you this,
before the engine warms up the pressure is SPECTACULAR!
As I remember about 90 psi with a cold engine and (after the oil pump mod) 20 psi when warm at idle.
More on this later...
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  #23  
Old 08-30-2013, 07:29 AM
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Re: Oil filter revisited

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[/color]
I will get you those numbers but I have to replace the gauge first.
Apparently hard mounting of a mechanical oil pressure gauge on a supercharged engine does not lend itself to long gauge life. sigh
I can tell you this,
before the engine warms up the pressure is SPECTACULAR!
As I remember about 90 psi with a cold engine and (after the oil pump mod) 20 psi when warm at idle.
More on this later...
Based on the calculations I did, I don't doubt the pressure was pretty spectacular. And that pressure was AFTER the filter. It only showed you the pressure drop across the engine. Imagine the pressure at the pump outlet! I am actually surprised you read 90psi at idle. The service manual implies that the max pressure available from the pump at low RPMs is pretty limited. Maybe those aren't actually max pressure values but desired or expected pressure values when operating at high temperature.

Is the supercharger in the oil path? If so, where?
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1996 Polo Green Subaru SVX LSi, 168,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF, Redline 75W90 gear oil, K&N HP-4001 Oil Filter, Mobil 1 5W50 FS (3qt) and 5W30 High Mileage (4qt) Oil Blend, Motul RBF600 Brake Fluid, AC Delco A975C Air Filter, NGK BKR6EIX-11 plugs, Centric Rotors, Power Stop Evolution Carbon Fiber Ceramic Brake Pads
2005 Gray Acura RL, 165,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF with Lubegard Platinum Protectant, Mobil 1 5W20 High Mileage Extended Performance Oil
2009 Red Toyota Venza, 123,XXX, Mobil 1 5W30 High Mileage Oil
1992 Red Ferrari 348 ts, 82,XXX, Redline everything

Last edited by Huskymaniac; 08-30-2013 at 08:06 AM.
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  #24  
Old 08-30-2013, 12:51 PM
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Re: Oil filter revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskymaniac View Post
Here is a plot of typical freezing point pressure drops across a variety of filters, similar to the oversized filter we use. It is for a generic 5W30 oil. I believe the Ultragaurd filter used is/was a synthetic filter similar to what you now find in Amsoil, Royal Purple and the synthetic Purolator filters.

Hi Tony,
Am I interpeting this graph correctly? At 3 gpm, the Ultraguard has 7.5 psid, while the Toughguard has 42 psid?
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  #25  
Old 08-30-2013, 02:31 PM
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Re: Oil filter revisited

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Hi Tony,
Am I interpeting this graph correctly? At 3 gpm, the Ultraguard has 7.5 psid, while the Toughguard has 42 psid?
Yeah. Crazy, isn't it? I think, in the end, the engine has so much more resistance that the filter or its BPV pressure will matter much. At cold temps, flow will suck and the pump will be maxed out. At operating temps, the pressure required is well below the capacity of the positive diplacement pump so flow should be unaffected. I suppose a good flowing filter with a low bypass pressure will get full flow at a lower temperature. But that's about it.
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1996 Polo Green Subaru SVX LSi, 168,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF, Redline 75W90 gear oil, K&N HP-4001 Oil Filter, Mobil 1 5W50 FS (3qt) and 5W30 High Mileage (4qt) Oil Blend, Motul RBF600 Brake Fluid, AC Delco A975C Air Filter, NGK BKR6EIX-11 plugs, Centric Rotors, Power Stop Evolution Carbon Fiber Ceramic Brake Pads
2005 Gray Acura RL, 165,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF with Lubegard Platinum Protectant, Mobil 1 5W20 High Mileage Extended Performance Oil
2009 Red Toyota Venza, 123,XXX, Mobil 1 5W30 High Mileage Oil
1992 Red Ferrari 348 ts, 82,XXX, Redline everything
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  #26  
Old 08-30-2013, 04:37 PM
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Re: Oil filter revisited

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Originally Posted by Huskymaniac View Post
Based on the calculations I did, I don't doubt the pressure was pretty spectacular. And that pressure was AFTER the filter. It only showed you the pressure drop across the engine. Imagine the pressure at the pump outlet! I am actually surprised you read 90psi at idle. The service manual implies that the max pressure available from the pump at low RPMs is pretty limited. Maybe those aren't actually max pressure values but desired or expected pressure values when operating at high temperature.

Is the supercharger in the oil path? If so, where?
Seporate reservour, lines and cooler.
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  #27  
Old 09-03-2013, 08:02 PM
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Re: Oil filter revisited

[QUOTE=Huskymaniac;727813]Based on the calculations I did, I don't doubt the pressure was pretty spectacular. And that pressure was AFTER the filter. It only showed you the pressure drop across the engine. Imagine the pressure at the pump outlet! I am actually surprised you read 90psi at idle. The service manual implies that the max pressure available from the pump at low RPMs is pretty limited. Maybe those aren't actually max pressure values but desired or expected pressure values when operating at high temperature.

Is the supercharger in the oil path? If so, where?[/QUOTE]

OK, bought and installed another oil pressure gauge today and just now installed it, put the battery on charge and should be able to get you numbers in the morning,
Maybe by NOON!
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  #28  
Old 09-04-2013, 09:55 AM
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Re: Oil filter revisited

Ambiant temp 69------70------70------70------72------72------74------76
Time 11:28---11:31---11:33---11:34---11:36---11:37---11:39---11:42
Engine temp 63°f---118°f---135°f---149°f---156°f---178°f---183°f---208°f
RPM 1350----1150----1050----1000----1000----1050----1100---1175
Oil PSI 87-------80-------60------50------40------30------25------20
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  #29  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:31 AM
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Re: Oil filter revisited

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Ambiant temp 69------70------70------70------72------72------74------76
Time 11:28---11:31---11:33---11:34---11:36---11:37---11:39---11:42
Engine temp 63°f---118°f---135°f---149°f---156°f---178°f---183°f---208°f
RPM 1350----1150----1050----1000----1000----1050----1100---1175
Oil PSI 87-------80-------60------50------40------30------25------20
Great, I will enter that into my spreadsheet and post some plots of what I think happens at different temperatures and with filters with different bypass pressures. Based on some stuff I did earlier, the question is going to boil down to what oil flow is sufficient. I think the end result will be that oil temperature has a much bigger impact than oild filter bypass pressures. The real question would then be, should we push toward an oil that is thinner at low temps but remains thick enough at operating temps to keep the bearings coated.
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1996 Polo Green Subaru SVX LSi, 168,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF, Redline 75W90 gear oil, K&N HP-4001 Oil Filter, Mobil 1 5W50 FS (3qt) and 5W30 High Mileage (4qt) Oil Blend, Motul RBF600 Brake Fluid, AC Delco A975C Air Filter, NGK BKR6EIX-11 plugs, Centric Rotors, Power Stop Evolution Carbon Fiber Ceramic Brake Pads
2005 Gray Acura RL, 165,XXX miles, Redline D4 ATF with Lubegard Platinum Protectant, Mobil 1 5W20 High Mileage Extended Performance Oil
2009 Red Toyota Venza, 123,XXX, Mobil 1 5W30 High Mileage Oil
1992 Red Ferrari 348 ts, 82,XXX, Redline everything
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  #30  
Old 09-04-2013, 11:09 AM
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Re: Oil filter revisited

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The real question would then be, should we push toward an oil that is thinner at low temps but remains thick enough at operating temps to keep the bearings coated?
Someone told me that Mobil1 0W-40W and Lubegard Bio/Tech Engine Protectant would do just that.


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