Starting problems

tupidsay vxsay ngineeay,

There seems to be a problem with the electrical system. sometimes when I try to start the engine it will not crank. I'll have the key in the start position, and nothing happens. Other times it will start right up, with no problems or hesitation. I recently replaced the battery and the starter, in that order, both were bad anyways (bad cell on the battery, and bad coils on the starter). The battery at the beginning of the summer, and the starter just a couple months ago. That did not fix the problem. Help me!!!

Bissell

[n00b on demand]

Alot of us have the same problem. It has only happened once with me. I turned the key and got nothing. No sound..no nothing. I have no clue as to what it is either.

[gsodonis]

I have had my 1992 5-speed LSi since August 8th of this year and it's happend to me about 5 times (once driving the SVX home 650 miles to Knoxville, TN from Rockford, Illinois the day I bought it - talk about breaking out in a cold sweat).

The problem is intermittent and I cannot ever duplicate it at will. I have a new Yellow top Optima battery and have done the alternator mod (additional grounding and + cable from the battery to alternator) but the problem has occured twice since the mod. The only pattern I have noticed is that it occurs when the motor is hot. Heat = increased electrical resistance so something in the starting circuit has a less than ideal connection, I just haven't found it yet.

Do a search for alternator mod and starting problems and you'll find a wealth of info and pointers.

Some additional related mods that I'll be trying later:
- ignition switch security bolt

[Beav]

There is a voltage drop that occurs between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. I suspect that that the inhibitor switch (otherwise known to us yanks as the neutral start switch) is the intermittent culprit. I've tried bypassing the starter interrupt relay (feature of the alarm system) without success. What I have done is to place an inexpensive relay at the starter and permanently cure the problem on mine. A simple Bosch type relay (otherwise known as a horn relay, etc. NAPA - Echlin# ECH AR476, $7.49), available at any parts store for around $5-$7 works. Without having the gumption to go take a picture and download it I can only guide you to wire it this way:

It's easiest to mount the relay as close to the starter as possible, cheaper too as you won't need much wire to complete. Looking at the relay almost all of them have a small schematic molded into the side of them. The teminals are numbered and should be wired as such:

#30 - To Battery + , can use the Battery cable at the starter.
#86 - To Ground (earth, for you non-yanks)
#87 - To the Small Terminal on the Starter. First remove the wire already there and place it on....
#85 - This is the 'trigger' for the relay

Done! What happens is when the ignition switch is turned to 'Start' current flows through to #85, energizing the coil and causing #30 to contact #87, passing full battery current to the starter solenoid. No more problem.

BTW - alternator mod has no effect on this - sorry.

[gsodonis]

Beav,

Thanks for the simplified instructions. I happen to have a couple of spare horn relays from the PIAMM air horns I installed last week and will try this mod this weekend.

I will go out and get the parts, post-haste! Thank you muchly. Um, number 85. The trigger. What does that connect to if anything?

bissell

Another possibility is a bad ignition switch. We see this at our shop every now and then. Same symptoms.




Dave

[Earthworm]

#85 goes to the wire you removed from the starter.

[Beav]

The relays differ occasionally. The terminal numbers should always be the same (I'll probably hate myself for saying that, but I've never seen them vary) but there may or may not be more terminals, such as 87a, etc. Disregard those terminals. For about $20 you can even buy them with a socket and pigtail to be that much easier. Your money/your choice.

[Hocrest]

Today is the first time this has happened to me. Everything was fine, I filled my tank and when I went to start her up NOTHING. Windows work, radio works,etc... so I ruled out the battery. Now, when I place my hand on the starter solenoid I can feel it clicking. Would the relay help this or should I replace the solenoid/starter?

Dave

[Beav]

Quick test: use a jumper wire directly from the battery and touch it to the small lead on the starter solenoid - BE CAREFUL that you don't have anything stupid going on, like your hand in the belts, the transmission in gear, etc. If it starts normally several times without fail it will more than likely be the cure.

[gsodonis]

Beav, if you're ever in Knoxville, TN, I owe you the beverage of your choice. Your simple instructions for the starter relay mod did the trick; my starting woes are gone.

Since buying the car in August, the hard-to-start problem occurred about once every two weeks (always randomly), but the car always eventually started up. I did many searches and tried all of the mods that related to the starter circuit:
- alternator and grounding mod
- checked the ignition switch security bolts for tightness
- my battery (Ultima Yellow top) was relatively new and passed the load test
- my alternator passed with flying colors.
All of these mods, yet the problem started to get worse (the non-start was getting more frequent and it was taking more turns of the key to get it to start) I decided to replace my starter just to eliminate that variable.

I have a 5-speed conversion from the PO, but I wasn't sure if the tranny was from a Legacy or a WRX. Turns out I have a WRX tranny and starter, but my Subaru dealer accidentally gave me one from and automatic WRX and the snout lengths are different. Anyway, it was a good thing, because since the starter didn't fit and I had the old one out anyway, I made up my mind to install the relay mod while everything was accessible.

I mounted the relay on the closest bracket on the firewall (to the left of the master cylinder reservoir - on the cruise control actuator I believe). Since I had the crimp connectors, wire and protective sleeve handy, the mod took about 30 minutes, start to finish.

I highly recommend this to anyone that has the classic hard to start problem before shelling out any money for a new starter (the WRX MT one at my dealer was $150). I happened to have the correct relay and all of the wiring parts on hand, but I'm willing to bet you could assemble all of the necessary parts for around $15.

Here is a pic of the mounting location of my relay.

[Beav]

Ooooo...you actually bolted it down.

I just left mine next to the starter. I trim my leads short, so there isn't any mass of unused wiring that would let it dangle. Besides, the relay I had on hand didn't have a mounting lug. Been there for more than a year without problem.

Glad it worked for you, just wished you tried it before everything else. (maybe not as much as you do - wink)

[alex_umn]

I can't take my car to valet parking because they never know how to start it! I hope to try this out this weekend

[gsodonis]

Originally posted by Beav
Glad it worked for you, just wished you tried it before everything else. (maybe not as much as you do - wink)

Actually, I love to tinker and performing the other mods/repairs was a learning experience. The alternator mod is a good one to do anyway. Fortunately, I didn't end up buying the starter and at least now I know that my starter and tranny are from a WRX and not a Legacy.

I also learned that my current starter has a PN 23300AA420. If you ask Subaru to replace it with a new one, it costs $300 and the 2004/2005 Subaru book lists it as belonging to a turbo MT Forester. There is a new WRX MT starter PN that supercedes the old one (Also fits the Sti): 23300AA381 ($275 new) or 23300AA380R1 ($130 remanufactured).

Each mod, successful or not, gave me the growing intimate knowledge of the SVX to keep wanting to try bigger and trickier mods/repairs. Certainly, had I tried the relay earlier, I could have avoided a few embarassing 'dead-in-the-water' parking lot moments, but then the folks that watched me try and try to start my SVX wouldn't have had as much time to gaze at her beauty.