Going Mini Van with a supercharger of course

[Chicane]

Originally posted by Noir
No one said any 'marque' is perfect. You can not critize others for making blanket statements, using double standards, and perpetuating false statements when you also do the same.

When have I done this??? Please cite examples.

I am rating a vehicle based on quality and reliability, not based on price. Let's not add too much to the soup.

Do you consider quality and reliability the same thing? I think price is also a factor in the 'quality' of the vehicle.... if you only have 5 grand to spend, you can get tons of different cars, ranging in quality and reliablity. If you feel like ignoring that entire factor.... then you do that.

JD Power gets data from many sources. Also look at what they are saying about European vehicles vs. Domestic for the country of United States.

Like where? You seem to know what you're talking about, so please explain in greater detail where they get their information..... from dealers? From owners? From independant testing? In what country? By who?

Well there you go. IT GAVE YOU A COUPLE PROBLEMS. Think if it gave majority of the buyers a couple problems, I guess that would warrant a poor quality product. Unfortunately, the problems listed by JDPA probably is each 'different' problem which would mean there is more than a 'few'.

So by that rational, the SVX is not a quality product because the problems it's given me so far are bad wheel bearings, warped brakes, bad idler pulley, worn cam seals, worn power steering o-ring, and bad front axles.... right? JDPA doesn't seem to be counting things like this...they instead seem to focus on 'fit and finish', panel gap, stuff like that. That's cool. But you can't say that the 'well built toyota' is more reliable than other cars. My friend purchased a toyota camry with 180k on it, thinking that toyotas last forever. At just over 200k, the engine died. Needs an overhaul, rings, and everything. This is my point. I know CHRYSLER engines that have gone well past 200k, without needing overhauls. Toyota builds quality products, but I think it's completely ignorant to say that Chrysler can't be used in the same sentence as quality, considering their vehicles are LOADS cheaper, a lot cheaper to repair, and can last just as long as a toyota/honda. It is NOT the marque that decides how long a vehicle is going to last.... it's MAINLY how the vehicle was taken care of. From my experience, people who own imports GENERALLY take better care of their cars than people who own domestics. Why? Part of it is probably higher resale value. If your 10 yr old buick is only worth 2 grand, people don't want to put much into it, and they probably don't care if they change their oil on time. If your 10 yr old Acura is still worth 5-6 grand, spending a little money on it to take care of some of its problems is less of an issue.

I have seen many reports where European cars with problems and concerns for long term reliability. Maybe you should read more. If you read that last JDPA report it states that Domestics are looking better than Europeans in the long run.

I did read this. Which was why I mentioned european cars. They are 'viewed' as reliable according to most consumers, but they really aren't much better than anything else on the market, in some cases worse, in some cases better. Just like everything else.

I think the SVX is a good quality car. I have not had any problems with either of the two I've owned. I have the car inspected whenever I take it into my mechanic and if anything looks like it needs to be changed before problems arise, I change it. It's called preventive maintenance. Is it cost effective? No, but are we talking about price here? Nope.

But if something is broken/worn out/needs to be replaced, that is a PROBLEM. This is EXACTLY what I was talking about. You own your SVX, and something goes wrong with it. You pay for it, and you fix it, and you call it 'preventive maintenance'. Call it whatever you'd like, but if the same thing needed to be done on my old neon, you'd call it 'unreliable', and 'needed repairs', not 'preventive maintenance'. This is EXACTLY what I was referring to above, and you just proved my point. Thank you for that.

What you mentioned above is a matter of your own opinion. I stated before that quality of a vehicle is depends on the number of problems and failures experienced from engineering or production. A neon could be a high quality product if that particular car has few problems. Do not confuse luxury with quality. Please explain how 'high quality can have many problems'.

So the SVX, with its premature transmission failure, undersized brake system (hence warping rotors), extremely heavy trunk lid, and tiny rear wheel bearings is a bad car.... because of the number of problems or failures expeirienced from bad engineering or production..... that's what you're saying, correct? As for high quality and problems... look at VW. Excellent fit and finish. Great panel gap. Great interior materials and ergonomics, along with a 'fresh' style applied to exterior. Very high quality. Better quality than toyota, in many cases. However, they have problems with window regulators, and coil packs, along with a few other things I probably don't even know about. Does this mean that Toyotas are better 'quality'? I don't think so. Quality is different from reliability.

Well Robby, I did a search and I did find common issues with the Chrysler's engines. Chronic issues as many put it. I recommend you do the same. I also checked JDPA's site to see if they rate individual models. They do. Chrysler's Voyager (I just picked one) did not look very good. Remember that the engine is only one part of the equation. There are mechanical issues. One source cited for the Voyager (i used this as one model from your loved Chrysler Corp):

Again I thank you for referring to me as a kid. It's also cute that you've adapted to use 'dig' to further attempt to get me going. You can pretend you're being polite and mature, but you aren't. Anyway, I ran over to JDPA's site. You can click on used vehicles, and it'll give you an 'out of 5 star ratings' system for each vehicles various aspects...but nowhere did I see a 'list' of problems... could you perhaps explain how you found that list? Then, as a comparison, I could do the same with other vehicles. I'd also like to point out that their data is mainly composed of OWNER REPORTED PROBLEMS, which is what I was trying to explain earlier. If a neon had the same problems as your SVX, YOU call the SVX's problems 'preventative maintenance', and do not report it as unreliable, but the neon owner, who does report the problem, views the car as unreliable, since all their friends with SVXs NEVER claim to have any problems, only 'preventative maitnenance'. It's bull****. A problem is a problem, and the SVX has PLENTY of them. Does this mean it's a bad car? I don't think so.

Oh, just because a car can tick up to 200k miles does not mean there was no maintenance done to prolong the life of the engine, nor does it prove that the engine was not replaced, nor does it mean that major mechanical work was done to the engine multiple times.

A few things: 1. Isn't maintenance done to prolong the life of the engine the same thing as your loved 'preventative maintenance'??? It seems like it's the same thing to me.... 2. I'm not talking about cars with new engines..... I know neons with over 250k on their original engine. They run fine. 3. Major mechanical work? Couldn't this also be called preventative maintenence? Even if there WAS major mechanical work done (Like on my friends camry), isn't that just prolonging the life of the engine(the same thing as #1)??? Your arguments aren't holding any water here. Sorry.

I understand your point. I'm just stating that your comparison between Chrysler and Subaru is incorrect. You are right, the SVX has some issues. Unfortunately, Chryslers has more issues than the SVX. I'm not saying that Chrysler sucks. I'm saying that Chrysler has lower quality products. You could compare Chrysler with another Marque that has similiar number of problems but you can not compare two that has a difference of 50%. There is a big difference between $20k and $30k right?

How is it incorrect? My SVX cost $3600. My neon sold for $3200. The neon had cheaper parts, and gave me fewer problems than the SVX. "Oh but the SVX is older" you will say. Pfft. If I had owned this thing for a longer period of time, I would have had to have dealt with a new transmission, and MULTIPLE rear wheel bearings, along with all sorts of 'preventative maintenance' described in all the receipts I got with the car. And you say Chrysler has lower quality products? If you really do mean QUALITY, I would agree. Their interiors are not as nice, the fit and finish is not as nice, and they generally have bigger panel gap. But reliability wise? It's not up to the car manufacturer. It's how the car is taken care of. Like I said... toyotas don't last long if you don't take care of them. No car does.

- Rob

[Chicane]

Originally posted by NapaBavarian
but if you ever get a chance to go to a pull it yourself junkyard then please count the chrystlers and the toyotas, then note how many parts on average have been pulled from each brand.

What would this prove? If there were more chryslers with missing parts, would it mean that the chrysler owners are more competent shade tree mehcanics? Would it mean they have less money to spend at the dealership, and are trying to cut costs by getting their own parts for a mechanic to work with? Would it mean that Toyota owners don't trust used parts? Would it mean Toyota owners don't like to or can't work on their own cars? If it was the other way around, would it mean that more Toyotas are still on the road today, because of all the missing parts? Would it mean that Toyota parts from the dealership are expensive and people are trying to cut costs? Please elaborate, because I don't get it.

BTW, is it common to go 380,000 miles on a chrystler engine?

I've seen a caddy and a lincoln engine hit that mileage....but I wouldn't consider that amount of mileage 'common' on any brand/model of car.

- Rob

[Chicane]

Originally posted by Motorsport-SVX
http://thw.gameparty.net/other/imp/topgear1.WMV
http://thw.gameparty.net/other/imp/topgear2.WMV


can a Chyrsler do this

I really don't see what's so amazing about this.... if you put a car underwater, as long as you dry everthing off, and make sure everything still has a good electrical connection, there's no reason why it wouldn't still work. If you hit it with a wrecking ball, only on the bodywork, LIGHTLY, and just dent up all the panels, that wouldn't affect much. Neither would collapsing the roof with an RV. And lighting it on fire? He was allowed to use simple tools to repair it, so as long as he got the wires to still connect, it isn't really an issue. They lit the BED and the interior fo the truck on fire, NOT THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT. Try that. See if it still runs. As for blowing up the building.... heh... that was pretty cool...but again, it was ON TOP of the building. It cracked the frame.... but still. the engine compartment wasn't really hit that bad, so I don't see how it's a way to prove Toyota's superiority. You can do all these tests to almost any car, and it'd pass. One thing I don't understand is how the brake lines and gas lines survived the fall. :| So yeah, maybe toyota has titanium fuel systems or something.

- Rob

[Chicane]

Originally posted by Subafreak
If I remember correctly thoe, a 22R becomes less reliable when you turn it on it's side. I think I read somewhere about the piston walls wearing out and cousing a knock that sets off the knock sensor cousing the van to have no power, with the only fix being a new motor.

That's impossible! Toyotas can be dropped from building and they never die, EVER! They never need repairs!

Anyway I think the Previas are cool in their weired way. I also like all thoes other 80's Jap vans from Mitsu, Toy, and Nissan with there, um......mid engine set up and over front wheel seating.

I agree. The coolest van I've been in was while I was IN japan. It's called a "toyota Hi Ace", and it had a turbocharged diesel mounted between the front seats. It had THREE sunroofs, all operated from the front, and ELECTRIC CURTAINS, that controlled the sun in the back. It also had cup holders taht could heat or cool your drink. It was pretty sweet.

It just upsets me that Subaru never made one. You would think that the boxer engine would be the perfect motor for an under floor location. Aw well.

Yeah... that is kinda weird. >shrug<

- Rob

[petesvx2]

Originally posted by Chicane


It also had cup holders taht could heat or cool your drink. It was pretty sweet.

That's really sweet!

[Chicane]

Originally posted by Subafreak
I had no idea a Previa could look so cool I don't think a Turbo Caravan could ever look that cool

I think they look pretty cool trashing Z28 camaros.

http://www.turbovan.net/pauls_van.mpg

- Rob

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by Chicane
And you say Chrysler has lower quality products? If you really do mean QUALITY, I would agree. Their interiors are not as nice, the fit and finish is not as nice, and they generally have bigger panel gap. But reliability wise? It's not up to the car manufacturer.

Saying something like implies that you've ignored every study ever done on reliability and quality. Every single study I've ever seen has rated Toyota and Honda at the very top of the list in terms of reliability and quality. Every single one. I have yet to see a single survey by anybody that shows any American car manufacturer produces cars with the same standards as Toyota and Honda.

Now, your argument that owners of Japanese cars tend to take better care of them due to the higher resale value is an interesting one. But it's just an assertion with no evidence to back it up. I don't think it's a cyclic relationship (better resale, better maintenance, even better resale) as you suggest. I think the cars just have higher prices to begin with and last longer, needing fewer repairs. There's plenty of evidence to back that up - decades of Consumer Reports and JD Power surveys.

Again, I have yet to see a single survey - ever that suggests any American car manufacturer matches Toyota or Honda on reliability.

Show me one and I'll consider that your assertion that 'reliability isn't up to the manufacturer' has even an ounce of credibility.

Earlier on in this thread i pointed to the CR 'best and worst used cars' lists and how many Chrysler products were in the 'reliability risk' section. Show me something similar that shows the opposite. Please.

Edit: I will say that I found it staggering that the 2003 JD Power survey, which I only recently read, showed that GM and Subaru had about the same number of problems per vehicle over a three year span. GM deserves some praise for that, but I still wouldn't buy a thing they make.

[Landshark]

Originally posted by Chicane
So by that rational, the SVX is not a quality product because the problems it's given me so far are bad wheel bearings, warped brakes, bad idler pulley, worn cam seals, worn power steering o-ring, and bad front axles.... right?

- Rob

no, not right. you paid around $3k for your SVX. what did you expect? a flawless car that would not need anything for 100's of thousands of miles?

i paid $14k for mine, because i wanted all the updates, a well taken care-of, final year car. i had to replace a $70 coil pack (and i knew that it needed it at purchase) and that's all. original smooth tranny and original quiet bearings. i could have bought a '92 for a couple grand, but i didn't want the transmission paranoia and an ongoing money-sucking project because i just got a house that needed work. i learned a while back that you get what you pay for - buy a cheap car, and you can end up putting more into it than what you paid for it. feel lucky?

if the SVX had the years of development that other cars had, it would not be suffering these problems. it was in production for a whopping 5 years - and its demise was known way before that. Subaru wasn't investing any more into a car that was headed for the chopping block.

i'm amazed that people buy an SVX for $4000 or less, and then b*tch and moan about the problems. hint: parts/service costs still reflect that of a flagship GT, no matter what you paid for it.

[Chicane]

FYI: I'm not *****ing and moaning. I love my SVX, I bought one with EVERY FREAKING SERVICE RECORD possible. It was EXTREMELY well taken care of, but the simple fact is that no matter HOW well you take care of an SVX, the wheel bearings will fail, and the transmission will die at some point (early). These are PROBLEMS this model has. But according to all of us, they aren't a big deal. If an american car had those same problems, many of you would be quick to call it a piece of ****. For instance, if a chrysler product's transmissions died every 75k, and the wheel bearings didn't last, you would all say "Oh there's typical Chrysler workmanship" and completely ignore the fact that the SVX has the same problems.

- Rob

PS: The neon came out in 1995. It had a bad headgasket design. It was fixed in 1998. 3 years. After that, no headgasket problems. But CR and other people still reported it as unreliable, because they were STILL getting complaints from people with the original head gasket (bad design). I would like to point out that Chrysler fixed the problem within 3 years. The SVX was a flagship model produced for 5 years, and they didn't really address ANY of the problems...the transmissions are still likely to die, ditto to the rear wheel bearings. So what's reliable???

[Chicane]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets


Saying something like implies that you've ignored every study ever done on reliability and quality. Every single study I've ever seen has rated Toyota and Honda at the very top of the list in terms of reliability and quality. Every single one. I have yet to see a single survey by anybody that shows any American car manufacturer produces cars with the same standards as Toyota and Honda.

How many DOMESTIC car owners do you know that are fanatical about maintenence and always take their car to the dealership and follow the service schedule? I know very few. Now I ask the same thing of anyone IMPORT drivers you know. I know many. See my point? Maybe there's a REASON imports are lasting longer...because they are indeed TREATED better. But if they're treated badly (my friends camry) they do not posess some godlike dependability, because deep down they're just like any other car, built on the same principles, and with the same general design.

Now, your argument that owners of Japanese cars tend to take better care of them due to the higher resale value is an interesting one. But it's just an assertion with no evidence to back it up. I don't think it's a cyclic relationship (better resale, better maintenance, even better resale) as you suggest. I think the cars just have higher prices to begin with and last longer, needing fewer repairs. There's plenty of evidence to back that up - decades of Consumer Reports and JD Power surveys.

AGAIN, it's the SURVEYS that I don't trust. Chrysler fixed the neon's headgasket design in 1997.5. But just up until 2003, they STILL called the neon unreliable. I even emailed them, asking what specifically was unreliable about it, and they could not provide me any additional information. My guess? Owners with the ORIGINAL paper headgasket (not the new MLS gasket) finally blew it, and reported the problem in 1999, and since the 1999 neon and 1995 neon are effectively the same thing, they threw all the complaints into one big 'neon' bin. Hence, according to the survey, a 1999 neon is unreliable, evne though the problem was fixed 1.5 years earlier. Instead of trusting surveys were all these variables can come into play (fanatical owners calling problems 'maintenance' (like Noir)), I go by personal experience. And in my experience, chryslers are extremely reliable if you take care of them, but their automatic transmissions are really weak.

Show me one and I'll consider that your assertion that 'reliability isn't up to the manufacturer' has even an ounce of credibility.

I've seen domestics with over 400k. Original engine. Original transmission. According to CR, this cannot happen. When an import has problems, they brush it off, when a domestic has them, they chastise it. I remember one time they compared a TOP OF THE LINE import SUV against the BASE model jeep. Great test... >rolls eyes<

Earlier on in this thread i pointed to the CR 'best and worst used cars' lists and how many Chrysler products were in the 'reliability risk' section. Show me something similar that shows the opposite. Please.

I don't think the OPPOSITE exists. I don't think an american car would ever be MORE reliable than an import.... because I think they're pretty much even. Sure, back in the 80s, even the early 90s, imports were much more reliable than domestics...but they've caught up. Now they're almost dead even, but the 'myth' perpetuates itself thanks to 'consumer reported complaint' driven surveys, resale value, and various other things. IT'S ALL IN HOW YOU TAKE CARE OF THE CAR.

- Rob

[Landshark]

Originally posted by Chicane
It was EXTREMELY well taken care of, but the simple fact is that no matter HOW well you take care of an SVX, the wheel bearings will fail, and the transmission will die at some point (early). These are PROBLEMS this model has.

you state this like a fact. i'll bet you a case of Mobil1 my original transmission and bearings last well over 100k miles.



blah blah Neon's never get a fair shake blah blah blah Neon blah Neons blah.....


yeah, that's great.


The SVX was a flagship model produced for 5 years, and they didn't really address ANY of the problems...the transmissions are still likely to die, ditto to the rear wheel bearings. So what's reliable???

they *were* updated. read: http://www.drwtransmission.com/subaru_svx.htm

that's why i bought a later model. i didn't want to guess when the transmission was getting the death rattle. you obviously found yourself a bargain, and are now complaining about problems. you should have done some research, Chief.

[petesvx2]

How long does it take you guys to type these long posts?

MONKEY! MONKEY BANANAPHONE!


that is all

[Chicane]

Originally posted by Landshark
Originally posted by Chicane
you state this like a fact. i'll bet you a case of Mobil1 my original transmission and bearings last well over 100k miles.

So they updated the wheel bearings on later models? I thought they were all the same bearing????

you obviously found yourself a bargain, and are now complaining about problems. you should have done some research, Chief.

WHY ARE YOU NOT UNDERSTANDING ANYTHING?!?! I'm not complaining about my SVX. I think it's great. I'm just saying that calling a chrysler unreliable while driving a car that BLOWS up transmissions, warps brake rotors, and eats wheel bearings is being a ****ing hypocrite! I think the SVX is great! I'm just pointing out what a double standard some of you have.

- Rob

[Chicane]

Originally posted by petesvx2
How long does it take you guys to type these long posts?

About as long as Noir spends, only a little faster since I'm a mac user. (just kidding).

- Rob