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  #1  
Old 04-15-2004, 12:21 PM
firlandsfarm
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(Another) failed transmission?

I previously posted this request on the Yahoo svxclubuk group (http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/svxclubuk/) messageboard. One of the responses suggested I should try here because you are more technically minded! So here goes but please note both the car is in the UK.

I have recently suffered a slowing of my 1992 SVX after the engine car warms up. It is perfectly OK when cold but after say 15-20 miles into a journey the engine is slow to build revs when accelerating from low revs. It feels like it is in a high gear but I get the same effect if I pull away in manual/first. The Power light comes on until about 3,000 revs (sometimes 4,000) after which the performance is normal. On start-up the Power light stays lit for about 2 seconds, it then flashes for a further six seconds. So eight seconds after the engine starts the Power light is extinguished.

I have gone through all the wire connecting and gear lever shifting/button pushing and discovered the following faults:

Engine
32: Qxygen Sensor
28: Knock Sensor.

Transmission
24: Duty Solenoid C
32: Vehicle Speed Sensor 1
33: Vehicle Speed Sensor 2

Would I be right in thinking that the engine faults are unlikely to cause this behaviour? If so then on to the transmission where the faults look more hopeful. The solenoid fault surprises me because all gears can be accessed both manually and appear to also be accessed by normal driving and kickdown. The Speed Sensors sound like the likely candidates or could the problem be causing them to appear at fault if that's possible.

Does anyone have any idea what the fault might be and does it mean a full strip and rebuild of the gearbox or is there a possible less drastic solution? My local Subaru dealer has advised that one or more of the clutches is slipping and causing confusion within the electronic management system. Does that sound a sensible prognosis?

All input gratefully received.


David Caple
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  #2  
Old 04-15-2004, 12:46 PM
red95svx
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Dave,

I work at a Subaru dealer here in the States and I have seen speed sensors cause some weird symptoms when they go bad. I would definitely start with those (esp. since you have codes for both of them!)




Dave

Last edited by red95svx; 04-15-2004 at 12:55 PM.
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  #3  
Old 04-15-2004, 01:14 PM
firlandsfarm
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Red

Thanks for that. I don't have access to any workshop papers: only 200 were imported into the UK so there's no aftermarket to talk of. Are the speed sensors external to the gearbox?


David Caple
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  #4  
Old 04-15-2004, 01:40 PM
red95svx
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200? Wow! That's not very many at all!


If I remember correctly one is on the side of the transmission case (my diagram for this is horrible), and the other is located inside the rear extension case.



Dave
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  #5  
Old 04-15-2004, 02:10 PM
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Dave, you're correct as far as the US SVX is concerned. Speed sensor #1 is in the extension and #2 is in the front diff. I imagine it's the same for the rest of the world, but exactly where #1 is, I couldn't say. I've yet to see even a picture of a non-US SVX tranny.

Other Dave (farm), the sensors are pretty external. They can be replaced without pulling the tranny out of the car. Duty solenoid C, however, is another thing entirely. Since non-US SVXs don't use the MPT clutch that US SVXs do, I don't even know what duty solenoid C does in your tranny. But I bet replacing it involves removal of the extension case. That's really not too bad, but dealers seem to charge a lot for it.
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  #6  
Old 04-16-2004, 12:05 AM
oab_au oab_au is offline
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Re: (Another) failed transmission?

Quote:
Originally posted by firlandsfarm
I previously posted this request on the Yahoo svxclubuk group (http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/svxclubuk/) messageboard. One of the responses suggested I should try here because you are more technically minded! So here goes but please note both the car is in the UK.

I have recently suffered a slowing of my 1992 SVX after the engine car warms up. It is perfectly OK when cold but after say 15-20 miles into a journey the engine is slow to build revs when accelerating from low revs. It feels like it is in a high gear but I get the same effect if I pull away in manual/first. The Power light comes on until about 3,000 revs (sometimes 4,000) after which the performance is normal. On start-up the Power light stays lit for about 2 seconds, it then flashes for a further six seconds. So eight seconds after the engine starts the Power light is extinguished.

I have gone through all the wire connecting and gear lever shifting/button pushing and discovered the following faults:

Engine
32: Qxygen Sensor
28: Knock Sensor.

Transmission
24: Duty Solenoid C
32: Vehicle Speed Sensor 1
33: Vehicle Speed Sensor 2

Would I be right in thinking that the engine faults are unlikely to cause this behaviour? If so then on to the transmission where the faults look more hopeful. The solenoid fault surprises me because all gears can be accessed both manually and appear to also be accessed by normal driving and kickdown. The Speed Sensors sound like the likely candidates or could the problem be causing them to appear at fault if that's possible.

Does anyone have any idea what the fault might be and does it mean a full strip and rebuild of the gearbox or is there a possible less drastic solution? My local Subaru dealer has advised that one or more of the clutches is slipping and causing confusion within the electronic management system. Does that sound a sensible prognosis?

All input gratefully received.


David Caple
Gid'ay David, welcome to the best SVX board in the world.

I have read this through a few times, and I can't see any thing in the box that would cause the engine to behave like that. I tend to think it is engine related.

The C solenoid/ speed sensor, code could be tied together, as the C solenoid is operated by a difference in the reading between them.

This difference tells the TCU there is wheel spin, so it applies the Limited Slip clutch to prevent it.

The gear box that you have, has a Varied Torque Diff. To test the C solenoids operation, fit the Diff Lock fuse, in the fuse box. this should lock the diff together to cause a binding between the front/rear wheels, when turning in a full lock circle. This will test the clutch operation. If it does not, the clutch is not working.

To test the TCUs operation, is to put the car on wet grass, you probably have a bit of it over there, get somebody to stand outside to watch the wheels, then punch the go pedal to try to spin the wheels. If both front and rear wheels spin together, it operating ok. If only the front, OR rears spin, then there could be a problem with the speed sensors not suppling the right info.

Both speed sensors are in the rear of the box, can be got at with the transfer case removed, the one on the outside is sensor 1. 2 is inside.

quote
My local Subaru dealer has advised that one or more of the clutches is slipping and causing confusion within the electronic management system...... end quote

I think the confusion is in the Service Managers head. That is not happining.

Harvey.
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  #7  
Old 04-16-2004, 03:28 AM
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Re: Re: (Another) failed transmission?

Quote:
Originally posted by oab_au
[B]
Both speed sensors are in the rear of the box, can be got at with the transfer case removed, the one on the outside is sensor 1. 2 is inside.
Are you absolutely sure of that Harvey? On our 91 JDM, I'm fairly sure SS2 is in the front diff. At least, the connector for it is in that area. I traced the wiring when delimiting it. Is it different on the UK model or does it depend on the year?

Phil.
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  #8  
Old 04-16-2004, 03:51 PM
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Re: Re: Re: (Another) failed transmission?

Quote:
Originally posted by b3lha


Are you absolutely sure of that Harvey? On our 91 JDM, I'm fairly sure SS2 is in the front diff. At least, the connector for it is in that area. I traced the wiring when delimiting it. Is it different on the UK model or does it depend on the year?

Phil.
I just figured out the answer to my own question.

As Tony Shale found out when trying to fit a 94(?) transmission into his 91 car: Older cars have SS2 external to the transmission and Newer cars have it internal.

This accounts for the discrepancy between Harvey's undoubted expertise and what I found when working on my car.

David's car, being 1992, probably has SS2 in the front diff.

Phil.
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  #9  
Old 04-16-2004, 07:12 PM
oab_au oab_au is offline
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Re: Re: Re: Re: (Another) failed transmission?

Quote:
Originally posted by b3lha


I just figured out the answer to my own question.

As Tony Shale found out when trying to fit a 94(?) transmission into his 91 car: Older cars have SS2 external to the transmission and Newer cars have it internal.

This accounts for the discrepancy between Harvey's undoubted expertise and what I found when working on my car.

David's car, being 1992, probably has SS2 in the front diff.

Phil.
Gid'ay Phil,

There could be differences between the models. Mine is a 95 Aust delivered, RHD, and it has the two speed sesors in the rear transfer housing. I have also the WSM for the 92/95 Aust models. This shows that the two sensors are in the rear housing, also, for all models. The front diff position for the sensor has the hole pluged up with an alloy plug.

I would think it would depend on, if it is a VTD center or a Transfer clutch. It looks likely to me that all the VTD models would have both in the back, as the no1 sensor is on the rear sun gear extension, to check the rear speed, and the output wire is on the outside. No2, sensor is inside the rear housing, to check the clutch housing speed, that is connected to the front half of the drive. Its wiring is internal with the shift solenoid loom.

As the transfer clutch model was also available as a front wheel drive, the front sensor in the front diff was retained. Our VTD was designed to be a whole new AWD. It could never be a front drive only model, so they decided to update and put both in the rear.

The 92 SVX was the first Subaru to use this AWD system, it did not appear in any other model till the B4 Liberty, and now in some of the other models. It is a completly different system to drive, as I discovered when I got a 97 AWD Liberty with the Transfer system. What a disapointment, lost that nice flow of drive through corners, as it changed from front to AWD after a long pause. I can now understand the way the handling of the US model, has been criticised by some.

I reckond that it was fitting, that our side of the world, that appreciate finer autos, should get the real thing.

Harvey.
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  #10  
Old 04-16-2004, 08:16 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (Another) failed transmission?

Quote:
Originally posted by oab_au


...snip...

I reckond that it was fitting, that our side of the world, that appreciate finer autos, should get the real thing.

Harvey.
probably more truth in that than (maybe) you meant.

The American enthusiast market has been clamoring for years to the automakers, but there just isn't enough of us, percentage wise, to make the investment. Therefore, we get the lowest common denominator soultion.
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Old 04-16-2004, 08:25 PM
oab_au oab_au is offline
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (Another) failed transmission?

Quote:
Originally posted by lee


probably more truth in that than (maybe) you meant.

The American enthusiast market has been clamoring for years to the automakers, but there just isn't enough of us, percentage wise, to make the investment. Therefore, we get the lowest common denominator soultion.
Yes mate and the super high diff ratio. Nissan did this too with the Z cars, 3.7:1 everywhere, 3.545:1 when they were sent over there. Don't know why.

Harvey.
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  #12  
Old 04-17-2004, 03:21 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (Another) failed transmission?

Quote:
Originally posted by oab_au

I would think it would depend on, if it is a VTD center or a Transfer clutch. It looks likely to me that all the VTD models would have both in the back, as the no1 sensor is on the rear sun gear extension, to check the rear speed, and the output wire is on the outside. No2, sensor is inside the rear housing, to check the clutch housing speed, that is connected to the front half of the drive. Its wiring is internal with the shift solenoid loom.
Now I'm very confused (with apologies for hijacking David's thread)

Our JDM version L (CXD) has the speed sensor at the front, and so does Tony's JDM Version E (CXW). But I was under the impression that JDM models were all VTD?
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Old 04-17-2004, 04:40 PM
oab_au oab_au is offline
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (Another) failed transmission?

Quote:
Originally posted by b3lha


Now I'm very confused (with apologies for hijacking David's thread)

Our JDM version L (CXD) has the speed sensor at the front, and so does Tony's JDM Version E (CXW). But I was under the impression that JDM models were all VTD?
Well Phil, thats weird. If it has a "DIFF LOCK" fuse, its VTD, If it has a "FWD" fuse, its Transfer clutch.

Have a look at the scan in my locker " speed sensors" It's from the 92 Aust WSM. There are some other scans there of the VTD system, you might be interested in.

Harvey.
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  #14  
Old 04-18-2004, 06:41 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (Another) failed transmission?

Quote:
Originally posted by oab_au


Well Phil, thats weird. If it has a "DIFF LOCK" fuse, its VTD, If it has a "FWD" fuse, its Transfer clutch.

Have a look at the scan in my locker " speed sensors" It's from the 92 Aust WSM. There are some other scans there of the VTD system, you might be interested in.

Harvey.
It's definitely a diff lock fuse - I tried it once and our SVX turned into a Justy!

I've looked at the scans, and the only conclusion I can draw is that some early JDM cars (despite having VTD), had a speed sensor in the front diff.

Last edited by b3lha; 04-18-2004 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 04-18-2004, 07:28 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (Another) failed transmission?

Quote:
Originally posted by oab_au


Yes mate and the super high diff ratio. Nissan did this too with the Z cars, 3.7:1 everywhere, 3.545:1 when they were sent over there. Don't know why.

Harvey.
sorry for the continuing highjack...

probably because of the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) law, wherein a company in penalized by added vehicle tax if their whole (averaged) fleet doesn't meet some arbitrary value. It's one reason Subaru is trying to get some vehicles reclassified from car to truck (In addition to fuel economy standards, a truck label also allows lower safety standards, which doesn't necessarily mean lower safety, but less testing to Government standards). I suspect that some emissions testing had also been accomplished with certain common driveline components. The use of the older 4EAT design for the NA market could well be due to this factor. Government testing, as you might imagine, is a long drawn out affair requiring many hours of lab certified tests. I'm not sure how much of a driveline change is allowed before a retest must occur, but I suspect it isn't much. The common drivetrain of many US automakers isn't just for fewer parts - although that saves a bit in logistics too.
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