ECUtune Stage III development

[porschekiller]

would your stage 3 cost the same as a new stage 2?

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

well thats why I am selling my stage III. Like I have said before, it is great on a stock motored SVX. But for my wants and desires for the money I have spent thus far, this is not cutting it like I was told it would

Tom

[Dessertrunner]

Tom I am sure we can alter the standard knock sensor, I will try this week end with a scope and see if putting a felt washer under it changes the signal strength. By the way do you have any spare knock sensors? reason is you may be able to bolt them onto the engine at a easyier location and if the felt washer works you could con the ECU that the knock is less then it is.

[svxistentialist]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Yes but it really should not need cooling at 9psi to avoid knock. The only solution provided was when i had suggested noise from the blower causing the sensors to pull timing.

Tom

Tom, is yours a lower compression engine? Did you build it to suit the power upgrade?

I do agree that with lowered compression, say 8.5 to 1 for instance, under normal circumstances you would not expect to be getting a lot of detonation at 9 lbs. Therefore if the ECU is hearing knocks it is very likely they are spurious, mechanically induced by the blower installation, and not actual detonation.

If this is the case, and I think it's highly likely, then what you have is an engine that has a highly sensitive system for knock detection that was designed to "listen" for knock on a N/A block that is now too sensitive to have a blower bolted onto the metal. So it is the knock detection that needs to be engineered to suit the new engine, pure and simple.

It wouldn't be a "proof" according to Trevor's rigorous criteria, but I am willing to postulate that Tom Krynock's centrifugal blower does not give these problems either at 9 lbs or at 12 lbs. The pump is isolated from the block.

Did anybody ever think of asking the Lexus 200 people if they have met this problem, and if so what is their solution? [they use a blower bolted to the side of a straight 6]. Another application comes to mind is the Jaguar V8 XJR with the Eaton in the V. You would expect they may have had the same problem. Anybody know where their knock sensors are sited, and what type they are?

Joe

[svxistentialist]

Originally Posted by sicksubie

There is no way to cool the stage 3 either. Methanol is a possibility, but all this work and dumping a lot of meth into my car for what? 400whp? The blower is still way beyond it's efficiency range. If I cannot sell it I will put it on my red car on 9psi with cams and methanol and that car will be a 270-300whp fun car. For my silver I want more than fun. The stage 3 will not get me to that level without dumping insane amounts of methanol into the motor along with a LOT of tuning and writing new software.




PS it is a 1600 blower

My Eaton M112 is currently working OK at 6 lbs on standard engine. The Eaton is a Roots blower and will not deliver more than 9-10 lbs without leak-back, but my target was always 9 lbs anyway.

My next upgrade is to give it a water/methanol mix. I will be injecting before the blower because the vapour driving through will cool the charge which is the main function sought, but also increase the sealing effect across the rotors.

Now I have no guarantee at this moment that the ECU will not pull timing at 9 lbs, like it does on Tom's engine. I'm just hoping if it's not doing it at 6 [for noise reasons] then it won't at 9. At any rate I will expect that the cooling will defeat the real detonation and allow reasonable power, if decent advanced timing can be retained.

I would consider your 1600 blower a way better machine than my Eaton. With good cooling, your blower at 12 lbs should deliver about 380 crank from the EG33. This is 150 hp over standard tune and is a seriously respectable figure. Are your expectations set a little high?

Joe

[TomsSVX]

I do have spare sensors and I will be working on relocating to try and isolate the noise but yet still allow them to function... We will see

Tom

[TomsSVX]

Originally Posted by porschekiller

would your stage 3 cost the same as a new stage 2?

If stage 2 costs 6 grand... I guess... That is my price for the whole kit

Tom

[Dessertrunner]

Tom do you have access to a scope so can measure the current reading and then the possiable new one after you relocate them?
Tony

[TomsSVX]

no I do not but I should be able to monitor their output by using my select monitor interface.

Tom

[TomsSVX]

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

Tom, is yours a lower compression engine? Did you build it to suit the power upgrade?

I do agree that with lowered compression, say 8.5 to 1 for instance, under normal circumstances you would not expect to be getting a lot of detonation at 9 lbs. Therefore if the ECU is hearing knocks it is very likely they are spurious, mechanically induced by the blower installation, and not actual detonation.

If this is the case, and I think it's highly likely, then what you have is an engine that has a highly sensitive system for knock detection that was designed to "listen" for knock on a N/A block that is now too sensitive to have a blower bolted onto the metal. So it is the knock detection that needs to be engineered to suit the new engine, pure and simple.

It wouldn't be a "proof" according to Trevor's rigorous criteria, but I am willing to postulate that Tom Krynock's centrifugal blower does not give these problems either at 9 lbs or at 12 lbs. The pump is isolated from the block.

Did anybody ever think of asking the Lexus 200 people if they have met this problem, and if so what is their solution? [they use a blower bolted to the side of a straight 6]. Another application comes to mind is the Jaguar V8 XJR with the Eaton in the V. You would expect they may have had the same problem. Anybody know where their knock sensors are sited, and what type they are?

Joe

Yes it is the built motor. I understand what should be happening and then I also understand what is happening

Tom

[Dessertrunner]

Tom see how you go, I have the kit as well and am interested to sort these issues out so if you want I am happy to run some expermients on the week end to so how we reduce the senseativie. Just let me know if I can help.
Tony

[svxistentialist]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Yes it is the built motor. I understand what should be happening and then I also understand what is happening

Tom

Thanks for the info. I'm trying to pick your brains as you have the experience and this problem may plague us later.

The fact that my timing is not being pulled does not necessarily mean that the physical noise is not happening. We stripped two engines and found movement in the crank in each. Not audible, but certainly there.

In the case of my JDM blown car, it may be working because it has a smooth and sweet engine causing no noise [72K miles] or it could also be helped by the fact that the JDM ECU is tuned for higher quality petrol, and probably uses a fuel map that does not pull timing so aggressively.

Joe

[Dessertrunner]

Joe have a look at Phil"s maps and you will see the JDM cars have a lot higher Knock sensor map. Don't know why, this may sound stupid but the level based on the knock sensor output at which the engine is damaged is the same no matter what the fuel is so they all should have the same map.
Tony

[TomsSVX]

I understand the want to know what is happening... I really want to know. i understand that it is pulling timing. i also understand that even with the relatively hot intake charge and my relative high AFR I should not be reaching "knock" conditions so I am leaning more and more to the sense of the knock sensors picking up noise since they are right next to the blower case. That being said, without a scope to compare the motor w/ and w/o the blower I cannot be certain but when I have time to myself I will be looking further into it. Esp. since there is no real immediate interest in someone buying my kit either.

Tom

[Dessertrunner]

Tom I hope you decide to stick with it my feeling is that the real issues that have challanged us with these engines are getting sorted out and the power potential is just being discovered. I am happy to see what I can find out.
One question for you is how can we measure if timing is being pulled?
Tony

[svxistentialist]

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Tom I hope you decide to stick with it my feeling is that the real issues that have challanged us with these engines are getting sorted out and the power potential is just being discovered. I am happy to see what I can find out.
One question for you is how can we measure if timing is being pulled?
Tony

Tony, Tom is using a select monitor. This can read the timing as you drive the car. We have one also, and we also can use data logging software to see what's happening when we are working with Paul at Zen Performance. We probably won't be doing more testing at Zen until Graham's new engine is built.

Joe