Whats up with Bush?!!??

[SVXer95]

These threads need cliff notes.

[Matthewmongan]

my comments were based on the consensus of five diferent people with doctorits in philosophy and political science. i teach hand to hand combat to armed forces in fayettsvile nort carolina, i hear that my students are dieing over a war solely motivated by missinformation personal vendita. we are an invading force in a foregin land to them we are the terrorist. look outside your own point of view and observe from a larger perspective. i agree with the national id, and if i had the option i wouldnt mind geting it tattoed on my arm, its less time i have to spend at the dmv when i get mugged a block away from my home.


i dont have a problem with america keeping the peace, however when we go over seas and start fighting we just encourage more people to become terrorist. "you can't change people's minds with your fist, but once you teach them the beauty of a thing their oposition desolves" bruce lee. we need to lead by example not by force.

[Royal Tiger]

See, my ideas work! Now if I can just market the ID bar code I'll be rich!!!!

[Shadow248]

Originally Posted by Matthewmongan

my comments were based on the consensus of five diferent people with doctorits in philosophy and political science.

You know most of the government officials you say are screwing things up have doctorate degrees.

Originally Posted by Matthewmongan

i teach hand to hand combat to armed forces in fayettsvile nort carolina, i hear that my students are dieing over a war solely motivated by missinformation personal vendita.

Personal? Are you kidding me? So you mean our 600+ member congress has a personal agenda in Iraq? Oh...k...

Originally Posted by Matthewmongan

we are an invading force in a foregin land to them we are the terrorist. look outside your own point of view and observe from a larger perspective.

Terrorist has grown to include so many things. So using that term is basically pointless anymore. It's funny that you are the SLIGHTEST BIT concerned about how "they" feel "over there". They weren't at all concerned about how we felt over here on sept 11. If you actually listened to guys who were in baghdad when the city fell, you might think differently. They were treated like gods on that day. I've been told that you couldn't find anything but smiling faces in every part of the city. The vast majority of Iraq's people see us as heaven sent. It's just that our media apparently finds that boring, and has decided that focusing on the resistant minority gets more ratings.

The moral of the story is - don't believe everything you hear on CNN.

Originally Posted by Matthewmongan

i dont have a problem with america keeping the peace, however when we go over seas and start fighting we just encourage more people to become terrorist. "you can't change people's minds with your fist, but once you teach them the beauty of a thing their oposition desolves" bruce lee. we need to lead by example not by force.

You know what, you're right. GWB should have just held a big family picnic on the White House lawn and invited Saddam and his sons. I'm sure they would have loved that, and realized that their decades of death threats and hatred towards this country were all unfounded.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by Shadow248

You know most of the government officials you say are screwing things up have doctorate degrees.

You know what, you're right. GWB should have just held a big family picnic on the White House lawn and invited Saddam and his sons. I'm sure they would have loved that, and realized that their decades of death threats and hatred towards this country were all unfounded.

Yeah they may had doctorate degrees but most of them work for the gov't because they can't get or keep a job in the private sector so they are willing to work for peanuts and for the gov't. I'm one who has a master's of public admin and won't work for the gov't simply because people complain that gov't workers get paid too much but rather the truth is they get paid far to little to attract the best and brightest who would rather go work for a fortune 500 and make 20x the amount in a year.

I would love to see the the picinic. Wonder what they'd serve? I'd still take Saddam in an arm wrestling match anyday.

[demonsvx]

I think the US should focus on its own problems before taking on world issues. I disagree with Bush and his policies now, but after 9-11 I fully supported him. I dont think the Iraqi war is justified as the US went alone in the matter as huge sums of people, both Iraqi and American were killed mostly Iraqi. If we free Iraq and let it govern itself then Ill applaud Bush. I think the worlds view of the US is I believe too much influence here and there and I think that where the Middle East problems come from. We supported Israel for a long time and Arabs disagreed. I think our freedoms are at risk because we spend too much time and money overseas and not here at home, thus the supposed quick fix ie Patriot Act to deal with terrorists here. I know its a fine line to make everybody happy and the American people SHOULD be more proactive in government. No I didnt vote for Bush OR Kerry but I have the right to voice my opinions and hope not to offend anybody here as you have the same right to do the same. I have the right to vote or not vote as we are a free country and I hope it stays that way. We are Americans and I support every one in their beliefs. I see every one here as a friend and fellow American as I've seen in the past two years as a member.

[Matthewmongan]

Originally Posted by Shadow248

The moral of the story is - don't believe everything you hear on CNN.



You know what, you're right. GWB should have just held a big family picnic on the White House lawn and invited Saddam and his sons. I'm sure they would have loved that, and realized that their decades of death threats and hatred towards this country were all unfounded.

i havent watched the news in years and the atitude in you second statment is the reason why we, as a people, will always have war a racisim.

[Royal Tiger]

If we didn't need the oil that flows out of the middle east, we would treat them all like we treat the Africans. As do most European countries. You didn't see france rushing off to help the tutsi's when they were slaughtered in Rhowanda. Oil is a fact of life and perserving a natural resource or access to it is a valid cause for armed conflict. Drop the personal vendetta B.S., it's spin and stupid spin at best. You want an idiot like Dean running the ship you have no idea of foriegn policy. "Focusing at home" hasn't worked for the Dems for over 60 years, now it will? Isolationism is a prelude to armed conflict, not the other way around.

[Matthewmongan]

oil is not a valid reason for armed conflict. if we were to follow your logic it would be just for me to kill my neghbor because he has a resource i dont.

[demonsvx]

Isolation is not the answer but less US involvement abroad will most likely improve our status in the long run. Our next conflict will probaly involve N Korea because they cant comply with international law and after that Iran. If they want nukes let them but remember we have a lot more than they do
America is afraid someone will sneak one of these in and I dont blame them, but nuclear material is hard to transport and engineer into a bomb without nobody noticing. We need to step up as a country and tell these foriegn countries either comply with international laws or be cut off from aid. But we need someone that can do that with balls and not someone who says one thing and does another. No Im not taking about Bush only but all leaders must stand together on an issue or not. Iraq is not a lost cause but I hope it ends soon as too many people on both sides are suffering loss of life. I know are troops are trying to do their jobs and I believe most Iraqis understand this. It all comes down to a few people to ruin it for everyone else.

[UberRoo]

Originally Posted by PA_SVX

Oil is a fact of life and perserving a natural resource or access to it is a valid cause for armed conflict.

Originally Posted by Matthewmongan

oil is not a valid reason for armed conflict. if we were to follow your logic it would be just for me to kill my neghbor because he has a resource i dont.

War and justice are rarely related. The U.S.A. is a nation of people who have founded their existence by doing whatever they [we] want. After Britain and Spain financed the venture of founding territories on another continent, we told them to go to hell. After that we conquered the natives of America for their land. We swept these deeds under the carpet and went on our merry way.

We are Americans, and this is what we do. I'm surprised how many Americans aren't comfortable with that when it's put into spotlight. We capitalize on the separation of classes, but on a very large scale. We're a rich country among many poor countries and we aim to keep it that way. Other countries feel about us the way you and I feel about the super rich; slightly resentful, but ultimately rather envious. The problem is that we have a minority with a nagging conscience. We basically give away tons of money to native Americans because we feel bad about stealing their land. We don't seem to feel quite as bad about the European capitalists we first stole it from because they didn't really own the land, therefore we didn't really steal it from them. *Ahem* Hypocrites!

As a whole, we are masters of suppressing the realities. We sugarcoat everything in thick bandages of illusion. We're so good at it in fact, that most of us don't seem to be aware of it, and even other countries at least partly buy into it. It's very shrewd. (Kinda makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.) I think our wars in the Middle East have largely failed because we couldn't come up with a convincing excuse. We've been unable to justify it to ourselves. Our national conscience manages to find it's tongue every once in a while.

"Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels good."

[Royal Tiger]

Matt do you actually understand what you write or do you just ramble on? When the British needed open sea lanes, they went to war. When the french wanted more trade, i.e. more money, they helped a bunch of radical colonists fight their mortal enemy, the British. Those of you who think we should run up and hug the french because of the U.S. Revolution don't understand anything. When we cut off metal and resources from the Japanese, they attacked. Furthing your socitey is as fundamental to civilization as it gets. The modern industrialized nation requires oil among other resources. Gaining and maintaining those resources are pairamount to our society. Hence war is a possible, although not favorable, means to keep our society running in the manner WE desire. No natural resources would cause a drastic shift in how this country operates. No oil would cause double digit inflation, rampid job lose and a depression twice the scale of the 1930's. When you understand how it all works, we can discuss it. Rationally.

[drivemusicnow]

Originally Posted by PA_SVX

Matt do you actually understand what you write or do you just ramble on? When the British needed open sea lanes, they went to war. When the french wanted more trade, i.e. more money, they helped a bunch of radical colonists fight their mortal enemy, the British. Those of you who think we should run up and hug the french because of the U.S. Revolution don't understand anything. When we cut off metal and resources from the Japanese, they attacked. Furthing your socitey is as fundamental to civilization as it gets. The modern industrialized nation requires oil among other resources. Gaining and maintaining those resources are pairamount to our society. Hence war is a possible, although not favorable, means to keep our society running in the manner WE desire. No natural resources would cause a drastic shift in how this country operates. No oil would cause double digit inflation, rampid job lose and a depression twice the scale of the 1930's. When you understand how it all works, we can discuss it. Rationally.

maybe you need to learn how the eff "natural recources" ie oil, actually work in todays markets. then we can discuss it... rationally.

Sure, iraq has oil. yes, we went to war for oil.. but wait.. uh oh... heres the kicker... why is crude more expensive now? There wasn't a shortage in the first place. Bush/gov't went to war cause they felt like it. personal vendetta, not really, oil, partly, republicans idea of how to stimulate the economy... whatever. there has NOT been a clear reason given to the people for a war, therefor your going to have people *****ing the fact that we can't even decide on a reason, much less being told "this is why we are attacking iraq" is rediculous. Thats a problem

oh, and while you're tatooing people, maybe you should add a thought-crime law. with little monitors in everyones room so we know what everyone is doing.


OH and ONE more thing PA... Tell your "thats not whats happening spiel" To the local chicago restaraunt owner who just now, after 6 months got out of jail. he was arrested and detained for being thought to be helping terrorists... just happens that he was actually not doing anything of the sort. but oh no, thats not at all happening.

The BS"patriot act" allows people to be detained without proof if they are suspected of terrorism...

[Shadow248]

"War is a continuation of diplomacy by other means." - General Patton.

I think UberRoo has a pretty good handle on Americans. I agree largely with what he said.

As for the Oil issue...let's use this example...let's say you are a being who lives on apples. You need apples to survive...you can only live a day or so without at least one apple. Now let's say your yard has an apple tree, but it can only produce about two apples a week. BUT...your neighbor has 100 very fruitful apple trees. However, he refuses to share them with you unless you convert to his religion, and kill one cat each day. Of course you know killing cats is wrong, and his religion is crazy. So you have three choices...become like him, die, or take his apples. What are you going to do?

Originally Posted by drivemusicnow

Sure, iraq has oil. yes, we went to war for oil.. but wait.. uh oh... heres the kicker... why is crude more expensive now? There wasn't a shortage in the first place.

Crude oil is more expensive now for one reason and one reason only...the people on wall street have realized how profitable it is to inflate oil futures. It creates a safety net for them in case of any problems, and in the absence of problems, net's them about 50% more profit. That's it. Plain and simple. It has nothing to do with what's going on in Iraq. Nothing.

Originally Posted by drivemusicnow

OH and ONE more thing PA... Tell your "thats not whats happening spiel" To the local chicago restaraunt owner who just now, after 6 months got out of jail. he was arrested and detained for being thought to be helping terrorists... just happens that he was actually not doing anything of the sort. but oh no, thats not at all happening.

The BS"patriot act" allows people to be detained without proof if they are suspected of terrorism...

And here's another "great American" who i'm sure whined like a baby about the government's intelligence failures leading up to 9/11, but now cries because he is inconvenienced by the fact that they are doing something to avoid a repeat. Do us all a favor and run for president. If you get elected, i'm sure you'll fix everything and the world will be at peace. If you don't get elected, make like John Kerry and GO AWAY.



For everyone in this thread who has not read the book (or at least seen the movie) "The Sum of All Fears", please read it (or rent it), then we won't have to have this conversation anymore, cause you'll know exactly what guys like PA_SVX and I are talking about.

[Landshark]

while there were no actual WMD's found, large amounts of equipment used to make and deliver them were, according to people i know in the military who were in Iraq. would you feel safer knowing a renegade regime who hates the U.S. and consorts with, and supports known terrorist organizations was pretty close to developing WMD's? sure, lets just try to talk reasonably with them!

oil and liberation of the oppressed Iraqis is nice and all, but make no mistake about the reason we really went there in the first place.