4EAT Line Pressure control.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by elninoalex

OK mate. What makes you believe it is closed? Is it because the check ball is held on the seat by the return spring?

This is the C solenoid opened up:

When it is not electrically on, the valve is hydraulically open. When the valve has the pilot pressure applied to it, it pushes the check ball back against the armature, and the pilot pressure flows through the valve.

When the Duty cycle Pulse is increased, the magnetic push on the armature, applies pressure to the ball to push it into the seat area to restrict the oil flow. These hydraulic solenoids use the check valve to close the valve when the engine is stopped to prevent the valve body from draining the oil out of the passages, but when the box is running the check ball is pushed open by the pilot flow.

Is that what you mean?

Harvey.

Thanks Harvey, it's much easier to visualize by seeing the internals. So what's considered 'normal' position would be when it has pilot pressure but is not electronically energized?[/QUOTE]

elminoalex,

Do not be fooled, your logic is exactly correct. BEWARE !

The valve illustrated by Harvey and that which he instructs you to visualize, is NOT in fact an "A'' or "C" type valve. It is a free floating control valve as used "!,2 & 3". Sly tactic to, be sure. You will note that a spring is not included as part of the valve illustrated.

It is pointless for me to illustrate the proper valve, as I can not do so while it is in place, but I trust that another will confirm what is correct. It should be appreciated that differences between the free floating and normally closed pattern, can not be established from the exterior, without electrical activation and the application off pressure. All is described in an honest description, included in one of my earlier posts.
Harvey is a master of sly deception deigned to draw the gullible about him.

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by Trevor

Harvey is a master of sly deception deigned to draw the gullible about him.

I object to this statment "Harvey is a master of sly deception " if you can't respond to a technical post with out personal attact, I will not respond to your posts. I ask you to withdraw this statment.

Harvey.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by oab_au

Set out below is text copied exactly Well not quite exactly. You left out the main point.

This bit




The operative words here are, decreasing NORMALLY OPEN PORT FLOW over time, As you can see the valve with zero PWM applied, flows 3.25 Lt/min, when the PWM is increased to 50%, the flow through the valve has decreased to 1.5 Lt/min, at 97% PWM, the valve has closed to decrease the ATF flow to zero.

The page is here;http://www.theleeco.com/EFSWEB2.NSF/...e!OpenDocument

Harvey.

Harvey,

How stupid can you get.

The essence of pulse modulation is to reduce the on time in accordance with the application. This is exactly the way port flow IS modulated (controlled). But the on/off time is proportional and NOT static as you try to claim.
NORMAL OPEN PORT FLOW, (FLOW, FLOW) IS DECREASED OVER TIME. The port is MODULATED open, closed to achieve this result.

[Trevor]

This thread, or comic cut with irrelevant imagery, has been published in the hope of swaying the gullible. There is history involved hopefully confirmed within the archives.

Some years ago the author must have stumbled upon an article describing the operation of linear, or possibly proportional solenoid valves. Unfortunately the text was not properly understood and a notion established that the principals detailed, involved solenoid valves in general, whereas the information was exactly specific.

When an opportunity arose within the SVX network to exhibit perceived knowledge, as a result of a discussion concerning solenoid “A”, the opportunity was grasped as too good to miss and a theory boldly posted. Sadly It was not appreciated that the earlier digested principals should not be applied in respect of a simple on/of ( bistable) valve as is solenoid valve “A”.

I read the post and in the interests of members, pointed out the error. The author obstinately stuck to his guns in spite of the overwhelming evidence produced proving him wrong. Finally out of frustration, a challenge was issued involving a substantial sum, to be donated towards this network if he could be prove himself correct. The offer was rejected and that challenge still stands.

Subsequently in another thread a wager involving risk, only to myself if the loser was issued, to be again turned down with sarcastic comment.

Lately It has been suggested that my explanations regarding line pressure control, may be permanently recorded and this has touched a nerve within a certain personality. Hence the sly instigation of this thread.

It has all become so stupid that I close with the following:-

Fairy story,

Once upon a time, on the Continent of Oz, in the land of Techsvx, no doubt who was boss.
The king was self throned, evil ego his god. The devil incarnate had given his nod.

Now it happened to pass, that he got in a tiz, he feared status threatened, by a of commoner of his.
It could even be said, that in tantrum was he, his paper crown, transparent you see.

Time was of essence, the pot was aboil. Keep things hot and continue the toil.
What would they think, his subjects in awe. All must see the set of his jaw.

Not to be outdone, he yielded no thunder. Was his kingdom not flat? He would rule up, and under.
A proclamation was ordered, to cover the net. Obsessed and focussed, he was not wet.

Calling magic aplenty, he dug a great hole. You would think he had the mind of a mole.
Surely to tumble and fall, he will climb out brazen, bold, skin thick as ever, out in the cold.

On not off is the story, of the king in search of glory.
Will this comic cut be concluded, with all nice folk eluded? Common sense prevail, or never end the trail?

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by oab_au

I object to this statment "Harvey is a master of sly deception " if you can't respond to a technical post with out personal attact, I will not respond to your posts. I ask you to withdraw this statment.

Harvey.

Yes, I am pleased to withdraw the statement as otherwise you are able to excuse a reply. Such is deception.

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by Trevor

This thread, or comic cut with irrelevant imagery, has been published in the hope of swaying the gullible. There is history involved hopefully confirmed within the archives.

Some years ago the author must have stumbled upon an article describing the operation of linear, or possibly proportional solenoid valves. Unfortunately the text was not properly understood and a notion established that the principals detailed, involved solenoid valves in general, whereas the information was exactly specific.

It was in 1975 when I was doing some design work for K-Mac Suspension in Sydney. They wanted to wind their own auto springs. I designed and built an automatic spring winding machine, that was run by a digital controller, designed and built by myself. (Micros and PICS weren’t around then). The red-hot wire was fed along the mandrill by a Hydraulic ram that was controlled by an Italian, Pulse Width Modulated solenoid valve, I forget the brand.

The Solenoid needed a variable Pulse Width, at 50Hz. The frequency had to revibrate the armature to prevent striction. For those in the know, I used two 555s, one to set the frequency of the signal, and the second, to turn this into the Pulse Width signal, controlled by the voltage threshold pin.

While I was testing this unit, to get the ram to move smoothly, I noticed that when I varied the frequency of the PW, the ram would start to vibrate if it was too slow, as I increased the frequency of the PW, the ram was smoother, if the frequency was too high, the ram would not move at all.

It was here that I realised that the whole operation of this hydraulic solenoid was in the frequency, that the PW was delivered at.
You can get any solenoid and by turning it on/off, the armature will do full travel. As you turn it on/off faster, you get to a point where you notice that the armature will not do the full travel, it is reducing as the frequency is increasing. There is a point where the armature will stop moving and just sit there exerting the same pressure on the return spring, and if increased too high, the armature will return to the rest position.

This is due to the PW signal varying the current flow through the windings, to vary the magnetic pull that it can exert on the armature. As full travel needs full magnetic strength, full current has to flow. Inductive reactance from the windings, prevents the full current flowing instantly at switch on, it takes time for the current to reach maximum.
As the PW modulation can alter the time that the current flows for, we can reduce it, to below that required, to give full magnetic strength, and travel. If we work in this ‘rising current time’, we can vary the magnetic fields pull on the armature. If the frequency is too high, the ‘reluctance’ of the electromagnets iron core, to change state, will be too high to change its magnetic field that fast, so there will be no field that the armature can react to.

As far as I know, this machine is still winding springs, 30 years later.

Harvey.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by oab_au

It was in 1975 when I was doing some design work for K-Mac Suspension in Sydney.
As far as I know, this machine is still winding springs, 30 years later.

Harvey.

Harvey, once again the sly side step. The "Some years ago", which I drew attention to, was most certainly not 1975 !

I could pull your current BS to bits, as I was around when the venerable 555 Timer IC became on the market and designed it into production time control relays, which my company manufactured. Prior to the advent of IC's, the timers were designed from scratch using discrete devices. It is clear that your ability is confined to component level.

However by so doing would I aid your ploy in taking focus away from the vital subject, inherent within this your personally critical thread. Your post has no relevance except to confirm the content of my humorous efforts.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by oab_au

.
You can get any solenoid and by turning it on/off, the armature will do full travel. As you turn it on/off faster, you get to a point where you notice that the armature will not do the full travel, it is reducing as the frequency is increasing. There is a point where the armature will stop moving and just sit there exerting the same pressure on the return spring, and if increased too high, the armature will return to the rest position.

Harvey.

N.B. I am unable to get to a point where I can notice the impossible. i.e. Quote, "There is a point where the armature will stop moving and just sit there exerting the same pressure on the return spring".
The only valid issue raised and one which should be noted is, quote - " and if increased too high, the armature will return to the rest position."

However let us assume by way of stupidity, that the theory was possible in practice.

1. The voltage/current of the control signal must be held and remain ABSOLUTELY constant.

2. The frequency of the control signal must be held and remain ABSOLUTELY constant. (An atomic clock would be in order.)

3. The spring pressure must remain ABSOLUTELY constant, even though huge differences in temperature will occur.

4. All mechanical factors affecting friction and or the return load must remain ABSOLUTELY constant.

5. Any fluid involved in the exertion of a return load must remain ABSOLUTELY constant in respect of, viscosity, temperature and applied pressure.

6. There must be ABSOLUTELY no wear during the operating life of the components directly or even indirectly involved.

7. There can be ABSOLUTELY NO TOLERANCE in respect of the manufacture of the required components. This requirement must apply in respect of every component involved, electrical, electronic and mechanical.

8. Assembly must remain ABSOLUTELY uniform throughout a production schedule, involving unspecified time and changing physical conditions.

To sum up. --- Every variable must remain constant, as designed and installed, to an infinite degree. Any one contingency as above renders the theory ABSOLUTELY impossible and in fact stupid.

N.B. ---- Item 1. as above.

The application raised by the originator of this thread involves the SVX transmission. The control circuit contains an ABSOLUTE variable in the form of the resistor circuit. It is confirmed that the transmission has been run with this circuit disconnected and or varied, by changing the resistance, e.g. with the shift kit installed. Are we to assume that the Harvey Hairy Fairy waves a magic wand ?

[oab_au]

Just go to shows how good the Subie Engineers are.

They have all the solenoids in my SVX, working as smooth as silk.

Harvey.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by oab_au

Just go to shows how good the Subie Engineers are.

They have all the solenoids in my SVX, working as smooth as silk.

Harvey.

But not in accordance with your proclaimed theory.

[Trevor]

Latter words of the author of this, his admitted defamatory thread read:-

Quote, ----- “The red-hot wire was fed along the mandrill by a Hydraulic ram that was controlled by an Italian, Pulse Width Modulated solenoid valve, I forget the brand.”
“I noticed that when I varied the frequency of the PW, the ram would start to vibrate if it was too slow, as I increased the frequency of the PW, the ram was smoother” ----

The author, in his own words, has described a device he claims to have built himself. Ironically he has himself unwittingly proven that the pressure delivered to the ram, via the PWM solenoid was fluctuating, in line with an on/off movement of the valve. This is exactly as I have stated, but which he has continuously claimed is not true. Not understanding one’s own words and or thought processes, surely confirms stupidity.

This thread was clearly published from the outset, as a sly defamatory statement against me, viz. :-

N.B. Statements by Harvey, Quote --

“Well I must admit that there was an ULTERIOR motive for this thread. It was to bring to the attention of all the readers of this Network, that the Theory that you have infested the forums with, is erroneous, misleading, and a Technical embarrassment to the fine reputation of this Network for supplying helpful, and accurate information.”

“The posts that you have posted, and the article, are misleading and utterly wrong. I would suggest that to uphold the integrity, of the Subaru-SVX. Net, that you either correct them, or do the right thing by the Forum, and delete them.”

N.B. ----- I WILL NOT DELETE ANY STATEMENT I HAVE MADE, AS HAS BEEN SO ARROGANTLY DEMANDED.
Edit P.S.--- As all I have published is exactly correct. !!!!!!

I accept that anticipating any courteous response in general, is futile.

[Trevor]

Once upon a time, on the Continent of Oz, in the land of Techsvx, no doubt who was boss.
The king self throned, evil ego his god. The devil incarnate had given his nod.

Now it happened to pass, that he got in a tis, he feared status threatened, by a of commoner of his.
It could even be said, that in tantrum was he, his paper crown transparent, you see.

Time was of essence, the pot was a boil. Keep things hot and continue the toil.
What would they think, his subjects in awe. All must see the set of his jaw.

Not to be outdone, he yielded no thunder. Was his kingdom not flat? He would rule up, and under.
A proclamation was ordered, to cover the net. Obsessed and focussed, he was not wet.

Calling magic aplenty, he dug a great hole. You would think he had the mind of a mole.
He could tumble and fall, but he would climb out brazen and bold, skin thick as ever, even if out in the cold.

On not off is the story, of the king searching glory.
Will this comic cut be concluded, with all nice folk eluded, common sense prevail, or never end the trail?


Time has now passed by and now well hidden is the sky.
Away from the light of day what else has the king to say.

A hole for a post, has proven more difficult than most. Was the earth not flat, for he had been real sure of that.
He should have consulted an astronomer, before insulting this lowly commoner.

He was truly sure fact needs tact, and no doubt of that. Checked were all the books in his library, he’d even thought of heinous bribery.
Yet all the evidence he found, still proved the earth round.

There must be a trick, he must show he was not really thick.
An Ozzy from way down under, none would see his ego trip asunder.
His crown now lopsided and he so furiously betided.
His house of glass might tumble, all his stones just crumble.

He had throned himself garbed engineer, just what had he to fear.
But some who really knew him, could now perhaps see through him.
What a catastrophe was that, for any uneducated brat.
What would they say, they might think he was a B.S.A. ?

Was it not the best of ruses, to show flag above the losers?
Could this other guy have what matters, not really be in tatters?
What could in fact he be, maybe M.I.E.E., B.E.E., or even B.Sc.?

How he now winces, this once pretender of the princes. No straws to grasp upon, or even ass to sit on. Jousting with the windmills has scared off his steed, alone he now stands in his hour of need.

Clearly outstanding in his self promoted class, was this but a stupid self begotten farce?
One thing was certain, he would pull across a curtain. Apologise he would not, no matter what.
Those of art need no ethics, why such morals were pathetic.

[b3lha]

Trevor,

You should make all your posts in verse. You're a true bard.

Phil.

[NeedForSpeed]

What you said.

Originally Posted by b3lha

Trevor,

You should make all your posts in verse. You're a true bard.

Phil.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by b3lha

Trevor,

You should make all your posts in verse. You're a true bard.

Phil.

Make all my posts in verse, now that could be said to be rather terse.
Write all my posts using the pen of a bard, now that would be just too hard.

All my stuff written this way, what would Chris have to say?
Would the moderators delete as slander, good for the goose but not the gander?

What you ask could well render me weary. In point of fact make me quite queazy.
All that is so very much technical, must be penned as the practical.

But on the other hand, would it not be grand, if all did shed a tear, for our late automotive engineer.