Calling Trevor - stereo advise please

[lee]

Once upon a time you offered some assistance in thinking thru some sound issues. Getting near to implementation time (hoping Santa will bring me some goodies). Well, here's my thoughts and issues.

Replace factory HU. Can't play CD-Rs without skipping. Have hundreds of old LPs want to xfer to CD-R.

Replace front factory component speakers with decent aftermarket. Use factory fitment in doors, use factory tweeter location. Front factory door speakers have lost the surround between cone and basket.

Install appropriate amp(s).

My issue is the back factory 6X9 speakers. I think I want to get rid of them and perhaps put subwoofers back there. Problem is the rear deck (US version anyway) has electronic components located there. Could probably fit in a couple of 8" woofers but not 10"s. Free-air mounting seems easy (with baffle board) and would not have depth issues. This is where I need ideas, i.e., should I put the money into quality 6.5" and up the amp power to drive bass, or? Of course overall comments/suggestions are welcome.

Not concerned with volume, but am with SQ. Not worried about rear passengers - a very rare occurence - this is my to/from work car. Not to the point of brand selection yet, want to know what I can do from a practical standpoint - meaning minimum modifications. I very much like a pronounced front sound stage. Do you remember your comment about small speakers or horns under the dash firing down. Ideas there welcomed as well. TIA

Lee

[wawazat??]

As mini-mod says, I'm old and these days I'm more concerned about quality of sound than thump and volume.

Agree with Lee on albums burned to CD (I already have the home component to do that!) and have a wide variety of musical interests (jazz, classical-solo & ensemble to full orchestral pieces, blues, vocals, etc). I have my prejudices on equipment makers, but will review specs on equipment and can be swayed with a well thought ou arguement. Same thoughts on passengers. Typically me and Wendy. I'd like to remove the back seat as it's a junk collector at best. I do not want to lose the fold down function due to equipment though. No trunk full of subwoofers for this old man either.

Todd

[Landshark]

you might want to investigate placing subs under the trunk floor to keep cargo space intact and keep them away from prying eyes. i know the Infinity Basslink sounds real good, but don't know its dimensions. you could even "build-up" the floor a little. two of these might work, but i don't know how they sound:

http://www.audionmore.com/Merchant2/...gory_Code=AMPW

I think this might be a stupid idea, but what if you found 2 8" subs that didn't require a lot of depth (looking quickly on crutchfield I found the MTX Thunder4000 T484A to need the shortest amount of top mound depth: 3 9/16th inches) and build them into the back seatback. Maybe build up about 2 inches from the current back of the seat. You lose about 2 inches of trunk space and will have a lip if you lower the seat but this is still better than having a sub and box in the trunk.All of that padding will slow down the air and make it sound like a pretty big box so you will get quite a lot of power out of them. I don't know whether or not someone in the back seat would be able to feel them through the seatback.

The reason for thinking about doing all this is because even though my 6 X 9s are not my better speakers, they add so much ambience and complement the 6" components up front so well, I wouldn't get rid of them for anything. I do have to fade the sound toward the front by 2 on a linear scale of 15 (not logarithmic like db). Since the tweeters are in such a better place than the door speakers, I also had to cut them by 3db on my crossover so things wouldn't sound falsely bright.

[lee]

Originally posted by Landshark
you might want to investigate placing subs under the trunk floor to keep cargo space intact and keep them away from prying eyes.

Admittedly I'm a bit older than average and haven't kept up, but with that said, I fail to see the idea of bass in the trunk. I have my back seat "up", and keep it that way unless an item I'm carrying requires otherwise. Correct me (please), but with the woofer in the trunk so much power has to be fed to get the proper sound pressure level in the passenger compartment that all I'd be doing is vibrating the car and neighborhood - not my goal. I'm not looking for pure 20-20K response - my old tired ears can't hear it anyway. Maybe something in the neighborhood of 50-13K, well balanced, and not so loud I'd have to shout to be heard by the person next to me.

An added (edited) note to younger forum members: Old tired ears come from:
a) 5 nights in a row at the edge of the stage for Grateful Dead concerts, circa 1970 - just a sampling. there were lots more; and
b) working on an Air Force flightline without adequate ear protection.

[Landshark]

Originally posted by lee


Admittedly I'm a bit older than average and haven't kept up, but with that said, I fail to see the idea of bass in the trunk. I have my back seat "up", and keep it that way unless an item I'm carrying requires otherwise. Correct me (please), but with the woofer in the trunk so much power has to be fed to get the proper sound pressure level in the passenger compartment that all I'd be doing is vibrating the car and neighborhood - not my goal. I'm not looking for pure 20-20K response - my old tired ears can't hear it anyway. Maybe something in the neighborhood of 50-13K, well balanced, and not so loud I'd have to shout to be heard by the person next to me.

you don't hear subs so much as you feel them. they handle the deep bass and sub-sonic frequencies that aren't audible, but are felt. you don't have to have them at earth-shaking levels, either, but without them you are missing musical information. if you see a live show you feel the bass and kickdrum. most equate subs with thumping rap music, but i have mine set at a level so the bass/drums/synth/etc. sound natural. what you are hearing on the streets are over-amplified thumpa-systems. powered subs will also allow your other speakers to be louder and clearer if you cross them over, because they will be relieved of handling the deep bass duty and free to focus on the mid-bass, mids, and highs. your "tired old ears" may not hear real high frequencies, but you'll feel a sub.

For sound quality you'll definatley want to replace all the speakers. You can get SUBSTANTIAL sound with modifying the car itself.

My configuration is 6.5 inch in doors and rear deck (Good luck using the factory brackets in the door) and a single 10" sub in the trunk. (See my signature) I can thump in the car with the best of them but I can't thump the neighboring cars, and I'm ok with that. The best part is by investing in a really good sub and power I can get great sound without disturbing the neighbors and I save space with the single sub and enclosure. Just do some research and know what you are shopping for.

You can up the power but you'll never get the frequencies out of a 6x9 that you'll get out of a sub. They are just designed to do different things. You need both, not just one or the other.

If you need some direction in changing the head unit(s) there is a document in my locker as well as some pictures of my old sub and amp construction. It has since changed but I need to re-do the whole thing as I'm not happy with the layout, but the sound is great. Right now I can't get to the spare tire. It's a little nerve racking.

Good luck, if I can help with advice let me know, I've been through it front to back....twice!

Randy (What?..huh?...I can't hear you!) ii

[Trevor]

Lee thanks for your confidence.

You appear to know what you are about. The problem is that the issue is subjective and it is impossible to advise someone in regard to what they NEED or will LIKE as we are talking about taste here. As long as you base your decisions on FACT and not on advertised bull**** you will not go wrong.

I have just been LOL at posts in Mod Mania. If you want a good laugh have a look and also get hold of some Ò Monster Ò advertising bull****. They really take the cake and are the ultimate artists. If its oriented copper and gold plated this and that you will get 100% db, more, better, undistorted and possibly even digital sound ???!!!

Try some Ò highly Ò twisted 16ga to your tweeters and note the difference. What is more Monster interconnects Ò are unreal Ò and will give 120 db of noise REJECTION. I think reduction is what is meant but if so the db reference must be a signal via speaker connections using rusty paper clips and measurements taken under conditions of continuous vibration.. Db is a wonderful expression when one is intent on confusion.

Important aspects in regard to speaker wiring is confined to lead and connection resistance. Pressure is more important than area of material in respective of connections and cross section in relation to conductors.

Ò Audiophiles Ò who pay for this tripe are convinced because they do not want to admit that they have been sucked in and wasted their money. I have carried out demonstrations to so called audiophiles. In practice they could not differentiate between standard copper, iron, aluminum wire or cable and Ò monster Ò product even when the opposition had lower conductivity. No 8 fencing wire, the Kiwi farmers friend, scored very well as one would expect. A demonstration where a pure sine wave of all audio frequencies and beyond is conducted under like conditions and displayed on an oscilloscope they will of course not accept.

Your posts tell me that you are no fool and you should be confident in regard to your choices and have fun making them. BUT and this is most important, having made them and been largely satisfied, listen to and enjoy the MUSIC and do not be distracted with continual critical judgment of the hardware as it MUST be a compromise with all things considered. Otherwise you will end up a mugwump bird or worse still by definition an audiophile.

Trevor,

"No 8 fencing wire"?

You're killin' me! ROFLMAO

B-T-W, I based my "need" comment upon what he was described as his plan.



Randy (Remembering that speaker shopping is a PITA as they won't sound the same in your car) ii

[lee]

Originally posted by wawazat??
I have my prejudices on equipment makers, but will review specs on equipment and can be swayed with a well thought ou arguement.

Todd, without trying to start an equipment war what are your prejudices. I'm expecting to do a trade-off of Nakamichi, Clarion, Alpine and Pioneer (budget based of course) in head units.

My last audio modded car used the Pioneer Premier components set and they worked well, but I may try Crystal or ??

Will probably try 8" subs in place of the 6X9s. Have to look around for specs, maybe JL. There isn't much market in 8" or smaller. It would be interesting to try and pipe in the output of a 10" bandpass box through the 6X9 holes, but the technical characteristics are too involved for me - and I can't afford the experimentation costs.

Trevor once told me about putting some medium priced small speakers (say 4") under the dash, firing down to increase the quality of the front sound-stage. I've also heard of people putting horns, facing forward, under the front seats to do the same. I've tried neither, but it's interesting to me. This I will get around to experimenting with - his idea is why I originally queried Trevor on this thread.

Maybe I'm a front sound-stage fanatic, but I've eventually taken the rear fill speakers out of every car that had them. As Trevor said, it's all subjective, but it bothers me to have sound coming from behind - it's not time delayed properly to give concert hall acoustic character and so...for me anyway...it's just got to go.

If what you're looking for is to fill in the bottom, not to boom, then I have used JL 8" subs in several applications and been very pleased. The last was in a small, sealed custom fiberglass enclosure that fit INTO the hub of the spare in back of my 928.

CJ

[Landshark]

Originally posted by lee
Trevor once told me about putting some medium priced small speakers (say 4") under the dash, firing down to increase the quality of the front sound-stage. I've also heard of people putting horns, facing forward, under the front seats to do the same. I've tried neither, but it's interesting to me. This I will get around to experimenting with - his idea is why I originally queried Trevor on this thread.

Maybe I'm a front sound-stage fanatic, but I've eventually taken the rear fill speakers out of every car that had them. As Trevor said, it's all subjective, but it bothers me to have sound coming from behind - it's not time delayed properly to give concert hall acoustic character and so...for me anyway...it's just got to go.

that's why i bought the Sony HU with the DSO. i heard it in someone's car and was impressed with the feature. i certainly didn't buy it for the red and blue illumination , although the silver face looks nice. it kinda achieves what you're describing through signal processing - "raising the soundstage up" as if virtual speakers were at ear-level. for me its almost hard to listen to music with the DSO off now. if you can listen to one of these in someone's car, check it out.

Trevor,

Thanks for being completely snide and derisive without even calling me by name! It's so tactful of you.

Yes, I should have used the term "reduction"... it refers to cancellation of induced noise when an amp is cranked up high enough to amplify the noise to 120db... it cancels induced hum and lowers the noise floor by 120db. How does it do this? I have no idea, and I don't pretend to. It's a braided conductor interconnect. Am I skeptical of their claims? Somewhat. It IS the quietest car audio interconnect I have ever heard. No discernable hiss or background fuzz, and I am a picky audiophile with a background in music and a trained ear.

I'm buying Monster Cable because I happen to get a huge discount on it, not because it's God's gift to audio, though they do make very decent products.


For those of you who are curious, here is my original post which gave Trevor such a laugh. I'm glad I could be a clown for your amusement.

Could somebody explain to me why I am apparently so funny?

OK, I'm going to throw this out.


I'm about to install a true audiophile quality sound system in my SVX. I work for a high end audio retailer so this is fairly inexpensive for me, relatively speaking.

Here's the setup:

Kenwood KDCX859 Head Unit (Thanks Joe! )
Sirius Satellite Radio
JL Audio 500/5 5 channel amp (100x2,25x2,250x1)
JL Audio XR650CSi components
JL Audio IB4 10" Infinite Baffle (Free Air) Subs x2
Monster .5 Farad Cap
Monster XLN Pro interconnects
Monster XLN Xtra speaker cable
Monster 2 and 4 ga. power wire
Battery relocated to trunk

Here's the layout:

4.5V Preout from the head unit to the amp using Monster XLN Pro interconnects. XLN Pros are unreal, 120db of noise rejection.

Amp configured to bi-amp the components and drive the subs... using only the digital crossover in the amp. Passive crossovers will be eliminated.

So... 100x2 on the midbass 6.5s in the doors, 25x2 on the tweeters in the dash, 250x1 wired mono to the two 8 ohm free air 10" subs in the rear deck.

All speaker cable will be Monster XLN Xtra, 12ga to the subs and midbass, highly twisted 16ga to the tweeters.

The trunk will be sealed off from the seatbacks with an MDF panel and rubber weatherstripping... the rear deck will likewise be reinforced with MDF.

---------------------

This will be set up as a pure SQ audiophile quality system with only a front soundstage and infinite baffle subs in the rear deck. No pound whatsoever, just pure uncluttered audio from 20hz to 25khz. No boom. No chuff. The sound of nice home separates in the car.

Plus, I get to keep all my cargo room and my passthrough if I need it.


I'll give a report once it's all in.

If I had had time to type out my car audio plans in more detail, I'm sure it would have made more sense to you. I forgot that on this board your every statement is constantly under "intelligence review" by the lordly statesmen from down under.

I'm going to go away now and listen to Smetana on my crappy Dahlquists with my cheapo Audiolab preamp and power amp and these chintzy Kimber cables I picked up at a flea market. We "so-called audiophiles" will try to stay out of your way in the future.

Thank you for the lesson, though! If I need any more remedial schooling, I'll contact you directly.

Dahlquists Suck! You must have Magnepans or Martin-Logans or you're not listening properly!

[Trevor]

Porter, am I to assume that is your true name ?

It was not my intention to offend you personally and I apologize and regret that you have become upset. My gripe is with manufacturers who make statements which have no scientific foundation and are simply not true.

However you have inferred expert knowledge as a result of your occupation and others could accept the information you have posted as gospel and this would indeed be unfortunate. It would appear that you are basing your learning on advertising and manufacturers spin and this is the very point I was making.

It is quite impossible for any form of straight conductor, stranded, gold plated or whatever, to in any way alter an audio signal other than attenuate it. It is not hard to put a spin on words using technical jargon and suggest all manner of alleged magic but scientific facts are required not here say.

Now I again apologize as I now realise that you are referring to shielded audio interconnecting leads rather speaker connectors in respect of braid. Shielding is essential in order to prevent what one could describe as induced noise. But provided a shielded audio cable is electrically correct it can not be improved on and high price can often be directly related to the cost of advertising. However no doubt shine and colour as well as high cost does provide a conversation piece.

Please do not raise the issue of gold plating and the alleged advantages in respect of audio gear. A business I owned manufactured equipment dependent on electrical contacts so that I am aware of the proper application of precious metals. This exotic has been a winner for the spin doctors to trade on.

I note that you are installing infinite baffle subs in the rear deck. This would provide the ultimate set up for base reproduction and I would appreciate your advice as to how you are achieving this baffle arrangement. N. B. this is a genuine request and should not be taken as sarcasm. My home speakers are set up so as to provide virtual infinite baffle operation..

I note that you have a background in music, a trained ear and your requirements indicate that you are able to hear close to 25 kc which is quite remarkable. Unfortunately I can no longer hear much above 3 kc due to shooting a short barrel rifle in my younger days and playing piano is becoming difficult so that I have resorted to a Technics digital piano. At present I am involved in developing a hearing enhancement unit for use by people in the same boat who have trouble understanding the dialogue in TV programs and home theatre multi speaker systems.

You must accept that inaccurate information should be challenged for the good of all and can result in interesting debate. The intent is not to teach a lesson. Have you had a look at the great site covering car audio posted by Lee ? All the answers are there in respect of analyzing manfrs. claims.

This Ò lordly statesman from down Ò under tries very hard in view of his age not to post in a patronizing manner but it appears that I have not succeeded.

PS DonÕt forget to let me have details of the infinite baffle you are setting up.