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  #1  
Old 09-26-2005, 09:15 AM
Bipa
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Yahoo! is active police informant for China

I thought we in the West were supposed to be helping spread democracy and human rights? This isn't quite what I was thinking.... comments?

DER SPIEGEL 38/2005 - September 17, 2005
URL: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...375965,00.html
Yahoo Scandal

When the West Helps China Spy

By Nils Klawitter

For years, American internet companies have been helping the powers-that-be in China to spy on their own people. Yahoo is even said to have exposed a journalist.


AP
The last time Gao Qinsheng saw her son, she hardly recognized him. She remembered Shi Tao, 37, as a large and powerful man. But all she saw now was "skin and bones." Gao told prison officials that her son needed a doctor.

Instead he was transferred to a re-education camp about a week ago. The camp, officially dubbed a "machine factory," sits on a small island in Dongting Lake in the southern province of Hunan, where Shi Tao shares a cell with at least 30 prisoners. If things go poorly for Shi Tao, this could be his living arrangement for the next ten years.

His crime? Shi Tao, a journalist with financial daily Dangdai Shang Bao, electronically forwarded an internal Communist Party directive concerning the 15th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre to a "foreign hostile element." The document contained little more than a general warning about the return of certain dissidents. But it was precisely this word -- dissident -- that was probably picked up by the state security apparatus' filter programs, focusing the attention of one of the country's 40,000 internet censors on Shi Tao.

But because the journalist had taken the precaution of sending his e-mails from an anonymous address, the Chinese authorities had to turn to Yahoo for help. And the American internet company, through which Shi Tao had sent his e-mails, apparently had no qualms helping out the Chinese. According to the organization Reporters without Borders, Shi Tao could never have been arrested without the servile Americans. When he was sentenced in April, the People's Court expressly referred to information "provided" by Yahoo: the journalist's personal account and the exact transmission time of the incriminating message.

The case became a PR disaster for Yahoo. Only after it was reported in various newspapers did company spokeswoman Mary Osako issue a terse statement to the effect that each individual Yahoo office must operate within the framework of local laws and "customs." Customs? Does that mean child labor? A little light torture? What exactly does the word "customs" mean to Yahoo?

Osako also told SPIEGEL that the company, of course, abides by its own "privacy policy." But that policy is full of holes. As far back as 2002, Yahoo voluntarily signed a document ominously titled "Commitment to Self-Discipline for the Chinese Internet Industry."

Until the Shi Tao case, this meant helping out with censorship as well as blocking access to certain internet sites to China's approximately 100 million internet users. Google has also complied with Chinese policy, and Microsoft's MSN was even willing to remove search terms like "democracy" and "human rights" from its portal. According to MSN's model of cultural relativism, this kind of language is simply "forbidden speech" in China.

But, says Reporters without Borders, Yahoo's latest move has essentially relegated it to the role of "police informant." The US company, which had just acquired 40 percent of China's biggest e-commerce company, Alibaba.com, for $1 billion, had apparently taken this approach in an effort not to make waves in what it viewed as the prevailing political landscape.

In taking this approach, though, American companies contradict the doctrine that opening up markets will encourage political liberalization.

Journalist Ethan Gutmann has addressed this issue for years. Network provider Cisco, which has operated in China since the mid-1990s, is one of the usual suspects in Gutmann's articles. "We firmly believe," says company spokesman Ron Piovesan, "that the internet has made countries all over the world more open."

But Chinese citizens haven't exactly been able to count on Cisco's help in this respect. Indeed, the company has done exactly the opposite, says Gutmann, reconfiguring its top-selling firewalls and routers to meet the Chinese government's censorship needs. In a study on the internet filtering system in China, the "OpenNet Initiative," a research pool of three North American universities, writes that Cisco products are especially well-suited to helping out the government's monitoring system.

The devices cost about $20,000, and Gutmann says that Cisco already sold "several thousand" in 2002. Cisco spokesman Piovesan claims that the company merely sells network equipment "and is not involved in government censorship efforts." It's an excuse that sounds a bit like that of the weapons dealer who steadfastly denies having anything to do with war.

In 2000, concerned politicians started to raise red flags about the role of technology transfer in censorship. To address these problems, they established the US-China Economic and Security Review. At one of the Commission's meetings, someone asked why trading in censorship-ready products isn't illegal. The response? "That's a good question." The issue was quickly forgotten, and nothing has changed since then.

Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan
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  #2  
Old 09-26-2005, 09:57 AM
Shadow248 Shadow248 is offline
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...and people are questioning our government for going to war with Iraq (a government that treated it's people in much the same way as the Chinese government)? Remind me again what the problem is here?

Seems like the Chinese government needs to turn it's censorship ability towards stopping reproduction in that country. They've got plenty of people already.
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  #3  
Old 09-26-2005, 10:51 AM
Red SVX 92 Red SVX 92 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow248
...and people are questioning our government for going to war with Iraq (a government that treated it's people in much the same way as the Chinese government)? Remind me again what the problem is here?

Seems like the Chinese government needs to turn it's censorship ability towards stopping reproduction in that country. They've got plenty of people already.
With a ridiculous disparity in the gender ratio, I'm sure they'll be dropping off soon.
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  #4  
Old 09-26-2005, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow248
...and people are questioning our government for going to war with Iraq (a government that treated it's people in much the same way as the Chinese government)? Remind me again what the problem is here?

Seems like the Chinese government needs to turn it's censorship ability towards stopping reproduction in that country. They've got plenty of people already.
If you want some actual facts on world population trends, I recommend last month's issue of Scientific American.
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  #5  
Old 09-26-2005, 11:03 AM
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Honestly, this article infuriates me b/c earlier this year Yahoo! refused to give a family that lost a son in the Iraq war, the password to view the e-mails in his Yahoo! account.

Clearly Yahoo! has double standards - and probably bend their rules when $$$ comes into the picture. I'm not sure how big of a presence they have in China, but in South Korea and Japan (two countries I travelled to and lived for 6 months) they have a solid presence.

-Chike
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  #6  
Old 09-26-2005, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow248
...and people are questioning our government for going to war with Iraq (a government that treated it's people in much the same way as the Chinese government)? Remind me again what the problem is here?
You're absolutely right! The USA should immediately declare war on China and invade!
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  #7  
Old 09-26-2005, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Bipa
You're absolutely right! The USA should immediately declare war on China and invade!
5 to 1 people wise yeah thats gonna be good
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  #8  
Old 09-26-2005, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by thundering02
5 to 1 people wise yeah thats gonna be good
but technologically we are the 7 million dollar man while they are the retarded golem, smiegal, from lord of the rings.

let's go to war with china!!!! save taiwan!!!!
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Old 09-26-2005, 03:54 PM
Shadow248 Shadow248 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
but technologically we are the 7 million dollar man while they are the retarded golem, smiegal, from lord of the rings.

let's go to war with china!!!! save taiwan!!!!
5 guys armed with stones vs. 1 guy armed with a machine gun. That's a tough one to call.
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  #10  
Old 09-26-2005, 04:06 PM
Red SVX 92 Red SVX 92 is offline
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Originally Posted by Shadow248
5 guys armed with stones vs. 1 guy armed with a machine gun. That's a tough one to call.
Ditto. Their military, especially navy and air force, are mostly obsolete, and as of now would not be able to successfully take taiwan if they tried to invade. They are modernizing and preparing for a Taiwan assault, but it'll be a while.
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Old 09-26-2005, 05:20 PM
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Welcome to one example of international business where in order to make money or even have officies in a county a foriegn business has to respect and comply or even fear particular laws as well as action the people or government can take of that region.

Even if it has to mean in order to be there you have to comply with the government to hand over an individual's information "for the good of the people" or to refuse to hand over someone's information to another person in case of facing crippeling lawsuits from that person's friends and possibily loved ones, even if the people who want the information are loved ones, as well as the complications that might come from breaking a precident stated in a local TOS.
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Old 09-26-2005, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Red SVX 92
Ditto. Their military, especially navy and air force, are mostly obsolete, and as of now would not be able to successfully take taiwan if they tried to invade. They are modernizing and preparing for a Taiwan assault, but it'll be a while.
here i would disagree. as of now, they would easily be able to take taiwan if they wanted. the only reason they aren't able to do so is because of the pact signed with the united states and japan to aid taiwan if china was to invade. i'm sorry a million man army with ak-47's and even the missles that we consider 'outdated' would make quick work for an invasion.

they are modernizing in an attempt to level the playing field between their team and our team.
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  #13  
Old 09-27-2005, 12:22 AM
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FYI: New internet censorship laws in China.

September 26, 2005

No nasty news allowed
By SUN WIRE SERVICES

BEIJING -- China said yesterday it is imposing new regulations to control content on its news websites and will allow the posting of only "healthy and civilized" news.

The move is part of China's ongoing efforts to police the country's 100-million Internet population. Only the United States, with 135 million users, has more.

The new rules take effect immediately.
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Old 09-27-2005, 11:02 AM
Red SVX 92 Red SVX 92 is offline
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Originally Posted by Noir
here i would disagree. as of now, they would easily be able to take taiwan if they wanted. the only reason they aren't able to do so is because of the pact signed with the united states and japan to aid taiwan if china was to invade. i'm sorry a million man army with ak-47's and even the missles that we consider 'outdated' would make quick work for an invasion.

they are modernizing in an attempt to level the playing field between their team and our team.
The most important issue here is transport ships. Until recently, they did not have nearly enough transports to get the 100-million-man-army-with-AK-47s across to taiwan, even if they took over commercial vessels. They have recently started to address this issue by ordering more transports. However, even with that, they need to maintain naval superiority to get the transports across. To maintain naval superiority, they need to control the skies. To control the skies, they need planes that are combat-worthy. They don't. At the moment. They are alleviating this situation by purchasing and manufacturing Russian planes from Russia and other countries (they use to make them under license from Russia, but I think they're buying outright now) (ironically, I think Israel is one of the countries supplying them, but don't hold me to that one, I can't remember for sure). However, their naval fleet is still currently a brown- and green-water fleet (they have to stay near land). They are attempting to attain blue-water naval capability (ocean roaming).

It's all a matter of time, but that time is not yet now.
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Old 09-27-2005, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Red SVX 92
The most important issue here is transport ships. Until recently, they did not have nearly enough transports to get the 100-million-man-army-with-AK-47s across to taiwan, even if they took over commercial vessels. They have recently started to address this issue by ordering more transports. However, even with that, they need to maintain naval superiority to get the transports across. To maintain naval superiority, they need to control the skies. To control the skies, they need planes that are combat-worthy. They don't. At the moment. They are alleviating this situation by purchasing and manufacturing Russian planes from Russia and other countries (they use to make them under license from Russia, but I think they're buying outright now) (ironically, I think Israel is one of the countries supplying them, but don't hold me to that one, I can't remember for sure). However, their naval fleet is still currently a brown- and green-water fleet (they have to stay near land). They are attempting to attain blue-water naval capability (ocean roaming).

It's all a matter of time, but that time is not yet now.
yes, i know that and you're right israel's also supplying them, but from the statements given last year by the chinese government...they will flatten taiwan if necessary and reclaim it slowly afterwards. of course after that statement, the US is planning to install anti-missle systems in taiwan and japan but obviously they aren't installed yet, so i still think that taking over taiwan wouldn't be too hard of a task to accomplish.
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