Interior swap blues

[Mike621]

Originally Posted by benebob

And how long did you sell cars? No car can be bought sold or transfered without the VISABLE vin plate on it. It is plan and simply 100% illegal in this day and age. Don't believe me ask any legit inspection guy, any man in blue, any auto auction, any DMV. The dash vin is the only vin which is required by law to be on a car.

Now the funny part about this is since my TVR didn't have a visable vin plate either (had been glued onto the dash and fell behind it) the great state of Colorado felt compelled to insist on a State ID vin as the original importer was no longer in business. They also felt compelled to place it not in a visable location but rather on the door jamb, 3 inches above the Origin Plate (which like with many makers actually contains the vin as well).

Ben,
I was only speaking from my experiences. My Claret was inspected twice and passed w/o a dash vin and I had been pulled over in it 3-4 times and it was never a question. Not disagreeing with your experience, just stating my own.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by Landshark

i could have that car inspected tomorrow.

So could I but legally neither you nor I could have it inspected ever in its current state, nor could it legally be sold, used as a parts car or used for anything other legally then a warm up for the crusher.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by Mike621

Ben,
I was only speaking from my experiences. My Claret was inspected twice and passed w/o a dash vin and I had been pulled over in it 3-4 times and it was never a question. Not disagreeing with your experience, just stating my own.

Experience and law are 2 different things. Remember there are plenty of people speeding past you texting while legally drunk at the moment who won't get pulled over but some will eventually spend time with the man in blue.

[Mike621]

I see what your saying. Originally I was just offering info on the mystery dash plate just so the owner of Jay's former car could have some peace of mind. I not condoning anything illegal. That's all. I'll go back to lurking now.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by Mike621

I see what your saying. Originally I was just offering info on the mystery dash plate just so the owner of Jay's former car could have some peace of mind. I not condoning anything illegal. That's all. I'll go back to lurking now.

You do know what I mean about not being able to legally sell it. Technically the current owner can go back and recoup his her money for a fradulent sale as the car was sold to him without a vin plate. Have seen it done well over a 100 times. Actually just once but the other times the seller simply gave the money back because they have absolutely no defense.

Its definately not the "just make a vin for the car" world anymore and hasn't been for some time. Lots of good people are getting burned for actions of years ago as it becomes a legal nightmare.

[Lookin4SVX]

The VIN on the firewall in the engine bay is the one that matters.
This is the VIN to the frame of the car. It is the car.




How hard is it to remove the dash vin plate? I would just remove the dash plate, tell them its a replacement and didn't come with one..

[benebob]

Looking, sorry again you are not correct. As I've stated the ONLY vin which matters for LEGAL identification is the VISIBLE vin which on this car has been removed. All the other vins matter have no bearing on the legal status of the car. As I already stated ask any cop, any inspection person, and DMV person. Just because you took a picture of a vin doesn't mean it matters.

Removing "a plate" which BTW doesn't exist the vin is simply attached to the dash on most cars is just as I already stated a felony. So you're telling him to lie saying he replaced the part and the manufacture didn't legally provide the proper replacement? Then he gets to go to jail for other things as well.

Honestly, it is readily possible to make the car legal to someone in the business, I don't want to say that it is a cake walk though. If it was my car and I didn't understand the process I would take it back to who I bought it from and get my money back.

The laws on vins is clear as day, I'm actually quite suprised by the lack of understanding there is here.

[davew833]

I'm not questioning anyone's knowledge of their local laws or interpretation thereof, but it seems like bureaucratic stupidity that the "visible VIN" is the one that's most easily removable. Common sense tells me that to make the firewall or doorframe VIN "visible" all I have to do is open the hood or the door. Any state DMV official or law enforcement officer would be well within their jurisdiction to ask me to do so and expect me to comply. Come to think of it, the only "official" that the firewall or door frame VIN would be beyond ready access to, would be a meter maid, and they don't generally write parking tickets with the VIN on them anyway-- at least not where I come from.

Again, I'm not criticizing anyone's understanding of their local laws, just the lack of common sense in many motor vehicle laws in general. It would be MUCH harder to fill or grind down the VIN on the firewall and engrave new matching numbers there than it would to stamp out a new phony dashboard VIN plate. (Oh, and by the way, some multiple SVX owners have had success in avoiding parking tickets while running license plates that don't match their VIN by, um, accidentally leaving a sheet of Wendy's coupons or other stray paper in a strategic spot on the left side of the dashboard... just sayin'!)

[benebob]

Originally Posted by davew833

I'm not questioning anyone's knowledge of their local laws or interpretation thereof, but it seems like bureaucratic stupidity that the "visible VIN" is the one that's most easily removable. Common sense tells me that to make the firewall or doorframe VIN "visible" all I have to do is open the hood or the door. Any state DMV official or law enforcement officer would be well within their jurisdiction to ask me to do so and expect me to comply. Come to think of it, the only "official" that the firewall or door frame VIN would be beyond ready access to, would be a meter maid, and they don't generally write parking tickets with the VIN on them anyway-- at least not where I come from.

Again, I'm not criticizing anyone's understanding of their local laws, just the lack of common sense in many motor vehicle laws in general. It would be MUCH harder to fill or grind down the VIN on the firewall and engrave new matching numbers there than it would to stamp out a new phony dashboard VIN plate. (Oh, and by the way, some multiple SVX owners have had success in avoiding parking tickets while running license plates that don't match their VIN by, um, accidentally leaving a sheet of Wendy's coupons or other stray paper in a strategic spot on the left side of the dashboard... just sayin'!)

It isn't local laws, it is Federal laws and remember, each manufacture is different with its vins. Some are easily removed, others are etched into the firewall, yet others are made out of freaking paper. The common sense comes in that the Fed dictated that the vin plate must be visable without entering the vehicle and that's it. It is the manufactures who choose to cheap out with it.

[92snowmachine]

didn't mean to ruffle any body's feathers by my recommended course of action to correct the problem. obviously there are many risks that accompany creating your own vin. i generally consider this common knowledge but perhaps am too used to dealing with the many legal considerations that come with being a mechanic.
that being said i reply to people on this site the same way i would advise a friend not a customer. in all likeliness none of these legal possibilities will ever come up. the choice of what to do is obviously his and no one can take that away from him whether we suggest actions, tell him what to do, or passive aggressively scare him into thinking there is only one choice to make.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by 92snowmachine

didn't mean to ruffle any body's feathers by my recommended course of action to correct the problem. obviously there are many risks that accompany creating your own vin. i generally consider this common knowledge but perhaps am too used to dealing with the many legal considerations that come with being a mechanic.
that being said i reply to people on this site the same way i would advise a friend not a customer. in all likeliness none of these legal possibilities will ever come up. the choice of what to do is obviously his and no one can take that away from him whether we suggest actions, tell him what to do, or passive aggressively scare him into thinking there is only one choice to make.

That's what PMs are for. That quasi, well okay no quasi about the legality things.

[Green1995SVX]

Originally Posted by benebob

And how long did you sell cars? No car can be bought sold or transfered without the VISABLE vin plate on it. It is plan and simply 100% illegal in this day and age. Don't believe me ask any legit inspection guy, any man in blue, any auto auction, any DMV. The dash vin is the only vin which is required by law to be on a car.

This is not true. I just bought and sold a grey market mercedes that only had a vin plate under the hood. There were several hoops to jump through to sell the car legally, but it's possible, and I just did it.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by Green1995SVX

This is not true. I just bought and sold a grey market mercedes that only had a vin plate under the hood. There were several hoops to jump through to sell the car legally, but it's possible, and I just did it.

I left the grey market cars out for a reason as they aren't really here you know. The feds don't accept 'em as being here, Mercedes of America doesn't accept 'em as being here so of course they don't exist. Really, that wasn't bloated Mercedes coupe you just sold.

[Conn SVX]

I think you will get in a little trouble if you are stopped by a LEO especially out of state and don't have a vin on the dash. most don't want you out of the car or opening the door. they are not going to lift your hood. They are not going to stop you from registering a car just because it has no vin # . You would have to trailer it to DMV headquarters and get it replaced . You can build a kit car or a composite motorcycle and they will give you a vin #. If u have all the paper work and the other #s match I see no problem . Honesty is the best policy.

[Lookin4SVX]

Originally Posted by benebob

Looking, sorry again you are not correct. As I've stated the ONLY vin which matters for LEGAL identification is the VISIBLE vin which on this car has been removed. All the other vins matter have no bearing on the legal status of the car. As I already stated ask any cop, any inspection person, and DMV person. Just because you took a picture of a vin doesn't mean it matters.

Dear Benebob, my grandmother worked for the CT DMV for 35 years, and my mother just retired from the DMV two weeks ago after putting in 39 years.
The VIN on the firewall is legit enough to get it titled/registered in CT.

"Customers who need a VIN verification can visit a VIN Verification Emissions Station with their vehicle. These stations charge a $10 fee for VIN verifications."

"VIN Verification Criteria

Should your vehicle be found to have:

Missing primary VIN
Altered or tampered VIN
Improper plate attachment
Secondary location unavailable
VIN unreadable"

http://www.ct.gov/dmv/cwp/view.asp?a=804&q=460746

You take your car with no vin plate to ANY emissions station (private garages), They check your firewall vin, you give them $10, they pass you.

Thanks for your time.