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  #46  
Old 06-18-2006, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiketkd
Don't have to worry about that 'Brother Bill' as I'm not touching my rear swaybar to be 'truly' D-stock legal...
But you ARE touching your rear swaybar by changing the front bar. The axles are attached FYI!
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  #47  
Old 06-18-2006, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benebob
But you ARE touching your rear swaybar by changing the front bar. The axles are attached FYI!
I'm just speaking of legal mods here - not of changing one thing on the car and not having it affect anything else. I've already mentioned earlier that changing the front bar reduces the amount of compression on the outiside front tire - and in turn the amount of lift on the diagonal rear tire.

Ben, I can't think of one D-stock autoxer I've PM'd, spoken to in-person or interacted with in a thread on NASIOC, I-Club or Clubwrx that has deleted their FSB. Not one.

Typically, WRXs and STI's in D-Stock and A-Stock run the 32mm Strano or the 29mm Whiteline FSB's. When you move to STX and STU where suspension mods are almost unlimited, WRX and STI driver's typically drop down to the 25mm Front & Rear sway bars from Cobb. In the ESP and BSP, WRX and STI drivers roll their fenders and stuff 9-10" wide wheels with anything from 275-305 sized tires for ultimate grip - I've ONLY heard of WRX/STI owners in this class (E/BSP) removing their swaybars (either front or rear or BOTH).

I'm not here to argue - just speaking from experience as I'm trying to ready both myself and my car for the Subaru Challenge in September (which is the sole purpose of my posts about my WRX - from competition in D-Stock to suspension upgrades).

-Chike

P.S. Btw, I captured 2nd in D-Stock today with my club. I'm purchasing two high resolution digital pics from a professional photographer that was there which I'll post in the next day or two. Next weekend, I'm putting on my 29mm Whioteline FSB and travelling outside of my region to compete with the Triad club in NC.
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Last edited by Chiketkd; 06-18-2006 at 09:28 PM.
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  #48  
Old 06-19-2006, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiketkd

Ben, I can't think of one D-stock autoxer I've PM'd, spoken to in-person or interacted with in a thread on NASIOC, I-Club or Clubwrx that has deleted their FSB. Not one.
I know of 4 who do it but then again. They don't hang out with a bunch of idiots on NASIOC or I club either. They'd rather race then talk about it. Try



talking to others that DON'T drive subarus. You'll learn much more. about set ups then idiot subaru drivers. Remember a subaru is a very poor excuse for an autox car to begin with.
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  #49  
Old 06-19-2006, 07:41 AM
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Here are a few pics of my car in action yesterday...

These aren't the high res shots by the professional photographer, just pics taken by members of my club for our personal use.





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  #50  
Old 06-19-2006, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benebob
I know of 4 who do it but then again. They don't hang out with a bunch of idiots on NASIOC or I club either. They'd rather race then talk about it. Try



talking to others that DON'T drive subarus. You'll learn much more. about set ups then idiot subaru drivers. Remember a subaru is a very poor excuse for an autox car to begin with.

I'm kind of amazed by this comment as, A) you're autocrossing a subaru, and B) They tend to do fairly well in local competitions.

I think you need to take into consideration that SCCA rules are very unrelatable to many of the cars that compete under them. I'm guessing that increased spring rates aren't allowed in his class, so the only thing he can do to increase roll and bump stiffness is to increase the front bar. Turn in may suffer, however the end result may prove positive. Unless you have tried both, you don't know which works better. In classes where upgraded springs are allowed, the turn in response is needed more than the stiffness from the bar.

Heck, a second generation eclipse is a pretty crappily designed car as far as suspension goes, however Dennis Grant managed to win with one.


Plus, suspension design is a very fickle thing. many times you can design a suspension to be good at one thing, however it will be very poor at another. I'm sure Chike could make his car a autocross only car, but I'm pretty sure that's not what he wants to do. I personally couldn't understand making a car to only compete in parking lots. But that's just me.

From what I've seen, designing the suspension to handle road courses works best to create the "best overall" suspension. A road course car must handle high speed and low speed corners, and weight transfer. And how many road race cars similar to a WRX or SVX do you know that don't run swaybars? Because that's a big 0 for me.
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Last edited by drivemusicnow; 06-19-2006 at 12:55 PM.
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  #51  
Old 06-19-2006, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivemusicnow
I'm guessing that increased spring rates aren't allowed in his class, so the only thing he can do to increase roll and bump stiffness is to increase the front bar.
Correct. Springs must remain stock, however, shocks can be replaced with OE style units (must bolt up to factory mounting points).

Only major mods allowed in the stock SCCA classes are: shocks, front swaybar, DOT legal r-comps, panel air filter & a catback exhaust.
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  #52  
Old 06-19-2006, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivemusicnow
I'm kind of amazed by this comment as, A) you're autocrossing a subaru, and B) They tend to do fairly well in local competitions.

A road course car must handle high speed and low speed corners, and weight transfer. And how many road race cars similar to a WRX or SVX do you know that don't run swaybars? Because that's a big 0 for me.

Why would you be amazed by it. How many national champions have used Subaru's for their car of choice? Its less than have won in a Renault Alliance in case you're wondering! I autox what I know and what I like.

Maybe you don't talk to the right people. Winners rarely give up their secrets and many of the hill climbers I know do nothing to the stock bar up front. Rear yes but nothing up front aside from a suspension box.

Is your manhood suffering too? Go get a bigger bar. I think the Hummer has a 45mm on it!
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  #53  
Old 06-19-2006, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benebob
I autox what I know and what I like.
First thing you've said in this thread that I agree with.

I love my Subaru and I'll buy another...'nuff said.
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  #54  
Old 06-19-2006, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benebob
Why would you be amazed by it. How many national champions have used Subaru's for their car of choice? Its less than have won in a Renault Alliance in case you're wondering! I autox what I know and what I like.

Maybe you don't talk to the right people. Winners rarely give up their secrets and many of the hill climbers I know do nothing to the stock bar up front. Rear yes but nothing up front aside from a suspension box.

Is your manhood suffering too? Go get a bigger bar. I think the Hummer has a 45mm on it!

Yes but they STILL RUN SWAYBARS.. which was my point. You stated that "national level competitors" don't run them at all.

I believe Gary Sheehan is the highest level subaru road racer in the US right now, and I've talked to him about the ESX car a few times.

Hill climb is different as well.

For my eclipse, a larger sway bar in the rear is required, the front remains stock, as that works out best for that car. You claiming that the only people who use larger sway bars are doing it for bragging rights is just not true.

oh and http://www.shimmysideways.com/Default.aspx?tabid=48 says hes the fastest SP Subaru at the 05 solo 2s. Looky at the swaybars.

I have no bone to pick, but unless you can back your opinions with some tech... I can't see this as being any help to anyone.
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Last edited by drivemusicnow; 06-19-2006 at 03:03 PM.
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  #55  
Old 06-19-2006, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiketkd
First thing you've said in this thread that I agree with.

I love my Subaru and I'll buy another...'nuff said.
Yeah well what can a hillbillie like yourself be expected to comprehend. READ YOU'RE SPORTS CAR MAGAZINES!!! Sway bar very low on list for going faster!!! In fact in many cases you go slower because you screw up the drivability. Ever wonder why the new Mini crap makes a heck of a great autoxer? It is benign and easy to drive!
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  #56  
Old 06-19-2006, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivemusicnow
Yes but they STILL RUN SWAYBARS.. which was my point. You stated that "national level competitors" don't run them at all.

I believe Gary Sheehan is the highest level subaru road racer in the US right now, and I've talked to him about the ESX car a few times.
No, reading English an option for ya. I said national level competitors in solo 2 (which is what this is taking about. Gary who? Where was he 3 years ago?

Glad you got some talking with him about another bigger is better car. My point is Chike is running in a stock class. His biggest advantage is an alignment and tires. Anything else is only worth a few hundredths at best. A good driver could delete the front bar and still run just as fast. Heck, maybe you could too. Why don't ya try it.
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  #57  
Old 06-19-2006, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benebob
A good driver could delete the front bar and still run just as fast.
Why don't you delete YOURS and post your results Mr. Superstar!

-Hillbilie Chike
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  #58  
Old 06-20-2006, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiketkd
Why don't you delete YOURS and post your results Mr. Superstar!

-Hillbilie Chike

On which car? I already have there tough guy!

My only question is why do you listen to some but not others when spending money. I guess you just like throwing it into your true manliness rather than something that'll actually make you faster.
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  #59  
Old 06-20-2006, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benebob
On which car? I already have there tough guy!

My only question is why do you listen to some but not others when spending money. I guess you just like throwing it into your true manliness rather than something that'll actually make you faster.
On the SVX racer - the one you and Dave autoX on a regular basis.

I rarely take the advice from people on car forums unless I've seen a proven track record from them. The advice on the FSB was taken from a Senior Instructor in my SCCA Club who drives a steel grey '06 WRX TR like myself (he previously competed nationally in an E-Stock MR2).

This discussion is going nowhere. Good luck with your autoX season Ben!
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  #60  
Old 06-20-2006, 09:25 AM
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Ben,

I decided to talk with some known national level WRX/STI autoXers in A-stock, D-stock and STU on the issue of running an larger swaybar on an Impreza in autoX and this is how one person summed it up:

Quote:
I've read all over this site that WRX's don't follow the normal rules for suspension set-up, the really fast guys are stiffening the front to LESSEN understeer. Although this is opposite the traditional rules, it's not an uncommon situation when pushing stock suspension beyond what it's designed for (normal street driving). The specific reasons noted for stiffening the front to reduce understeer are:

1. Supposedly, front camber becomes more positive as the suspension compresses on WRXs. (This is highly unusual, most cars are designed to increase negative camber as suspension compresses.)
2. When turning the car hard, soft (OEM) suspension tends to run out of travel on the outside front wheel and bottom out on its bumpstop, resulting in a severe spike in spring rate (based on the spring rate of the bumpstops).

Other ways to address these problems are to run stiffer front springs and/or increase static negative camber (by installing camber plates). Unfortunately, both of these options are illegal if autocrossing in Stock class, hence the reason fast guys running in Stock class run stiff front sway bars. Other pros for going the swaybar route are cost and ease of installation, compared to camber plates or springs.
So while running a larger FSB might not work for an Evo or awd DSM, it's very effective on the current Impreza platform. I know you think this platform is a POS and advised me not to buy my WRX, but hey you said it best earlier in this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by benebob
I autox what I know and what I like.
-Chike

P.S. I hope you and Dave have a great season in '06 and I look forward to autoXing again at Ripken this Fall if you can make it.
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