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  #1  
Old 03-26-2005, 04:57 PM
deruvian
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Intake camshaft removal

Now, I know that some of you have had to remove the EG33 camshafts at one time or another. Tomssvx, you had to do this once, didn't you?

What I'd like to know is the best way to remove the intake camshafts. And by best, I mean easiest. Ideally, I would like to be able to remove them by only removing the valve covers. I could see that it might also be necessary to remove the timing belt and camshaft pulleys as well.

So, basically, is there any way to do this without pulling the engine? Thanks all.
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  #2  
Old 03-26-2005, 08:52 PM
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Do-able, yes

but it requires more than just removing the valve cover. Accessory belts, front timing covers (plastic) and cam drive belts, then valve covers (which also entail coil packs), and cam supports.

Not an easy job with the engine in the car. Why do you want to do this job?

Todd (multiple cam and engine removal guy)
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Old 03-26-2005, 08:58 PM
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I Just did my exhaust cam shaft on the pass. side. You will need to remove the timing belt to get the marks lined up correctly. The valve cover and the front half cap, see pic, that hold the front of the cams in place.
Important Make sure to install the maintance bolt onto the intake cam sub gear before removal.
Remove the cam bearring caps and out it should come.
Not that hard to do. this is a great time to replace the lower cam seal too. The timing gear does not have to be removed from the exhaust cam.

Steve
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  #4  
Old 03-27-2005, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVX-FF
I Just did my exhaust cam shaft on the pass. side. You will need to remove the timing belt to get the marks lined up correctly. The valve cover and the front half cap, see pic, that hold the front of the cams in place.
Important Make sure to install the maintance bolt onto the intake cam sub gear before removal.
Remove the cam bearring caps and out it should come.
Not that hard to do. this is a great time to replace the lower cam seal too. The timing gear does not have to be removed from the exhaust cam.

Steve
So, can we try to get this punched out in a list format? Please correct me if I missed anything.

- Remove the accessory belts, crank pulley, timing belt cover, and timing belt.
- Remove the spark plug boots, valve covers, and gaskets.
- Remove the front cap for the intake camshafts (this is the little black looking "cylinder" right? It's also a cam seal, correct?).
- What is the maintenance bolt that has to be installed? Is this a dealer-available service part? I haven't heard of it before, but apparently it gets installed in this step.
- The timing should be marked on both the camshafts, right? Or do they have existing marks (similar to the pulleys, block, and timing belt)?
- Remove the bearing caps.
- Remove the intake camshaft.

(And the following are just for my sanity)
- Reinstall the camshaft.
- Install new valve cover gaskets.
- Replace spark plugs.
- Reinstall valve covers and spark plug boots.
- Reinstall intake cam seals, timing belt, t-belt cover, crank pulley, and accessory belts.

Thanks again!
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  #5  
Old 03-27-2005, 12:01 PM
deruvian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wawazat??
...
Not an easy job with the engine in the car. Why do you want to do this job?

Todd (multiple cam and engine removal guy)
Truth be told, I am thinking of grinding the lift that the intake cams provide. I want to keep the duration the same, but increase the lift by 1mm. I think that the non-interference setup is great for the average joe-schmoe, but I change my timing belts when I'm supposed to.

There's no guarantee that this will result in loss of the non-interference setup, as I have never seen precise piston-to-valve clearance numbers. Either way, I could care less.

So Todd, if you have any cam removal advice, please let me know.

I think we could all stand to see a 255 - 260 hp N/A SVX, eh?
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  #6  
Old 03-28-2005, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deruvian
Truth be told, I am thinking of grinding the lift that the intake cams provide. I want to keep the duration the same, but increase the lift by 1mm.
So you are getting new intake cam shafts with a higher lift. Why not the exhaust also?
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  #7  
Old 03-28-2005, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svx_commuter
So you are getting new intake cam shafts with a higher lift. Why not the exhaust also?
John the exhaust is 8mm now. They kept the inlet at 7mm to make the engine completely non interference, As the inlet valves are bigger than the exhaust. If the belt broke, the edge of the inlet valve could hit the piston.
1 mm more on the inlet will bring the both to 8mm.

Of course the other reasion is, its cheaper to do one than two.

Harvey.
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  #8  
Old 03-28-2005, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oab_au
John the exhaust is 8mm now. They kept the inlet at 7mm to make the engine completely non interference, As the inlet valves are bigger than the exhaust. If the belt broke, the edge of the inlet valve could hit the piston.
1 mm more on the inlet will bring the both to 8mm.

Of course the other reasion is, its cheaper to do one than two.

Harvey.
Precisely. I really want to even out the lift on both of them.

And since the exhaust valves are open when the piston is rising, I do not wish to risk the life of the poor little guys. The intake valves are open when the piston is dropping, giving that diaphragm effect.

The one thing that I did want to ask, especially towards the technically minded (like Harvey ), is if there are any other risks. For example, will the other internals have the appropriate threshold to allow another 1mm without breaking, binding, or stacking?

Do I need to worry about replacing other parts with the camshafts?

You know, the typical run-of-the-mill worries that come with any new performance parts.

Oh, yes, I also wanted to see if anyone knew the stock duration on the cams. Is it possible to measure it using the cam lobes? Per this thread, it appears as though the intake duration is 236 degrees, and the exhaust is 244 degrees. Just curious, really... because the service manual gives a value for the valve lift that doesn't appear to be true (per this thread), so who knows if the duration values are to be trusted either.
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  #9  
Old 03-29-2005, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deruvian
Precisely. I really want to even out the lift on both of them.

And since the exhaust valves are open when the piston is rising, I do not wish to risk the life of the poor little guys. The intake valves are open when the piston is dropping, giving that diaphragm effect.

The one thing that I did want to ask, especially towards the technically minded (like Harvey ), is if there are any other risks. For example, will the other internals have the appropriate threshold to allow another 1mm without breaking, binding, or stacking?

Do I need to worry about replacing other parts with the camshafts?

You know, the typical run-of-the-mill worries that come with any new performance parts.

Oh, yes, I also wanted to see if anyone knew the stock duration on the cams. Is it possible to measure it using the cam lobes? Per this thread, it appears as though the intake duration is 236 degrees, and the exhaust is 244 degrees. Just curious, really... because the service manual gives a value for the valve lift that doesn't appear to be true (per this thread), so who knows if the duration values are to be trusted either.
I think the duration figures are right.
In increasing the lift, there are two ways to do it. First is to grind the cam lobe base circle to a smaller dia. This will increase the lift, but will also increase the follower clearance. For a small amount <1mm, the hydraulic lifter can take up the extra clearance. If more lift is required , a shim can be fitted under the lifter to take up the clearance.

To go to a larger lift the nose of the cam has to be built up with weld to increase its height and reground to the same duration profile. This then may have the nose of the cam hitting the sides of the lifter well, as it turns. This area can be ground away to clear the nose ok.

I have not looked at this engine to do this, and it would be best to let the cam grinder look at the head, to see how much clearance there is between the cam nose and the lifter well. Slightly stronger springs would be needed, but there is no point in using super strong springs, as they just stress the valve gear more than necessary.

As I have allways said if you are going to run an auto, you need to maintain the same duration figures. If you are running a manual and low gearing, and don't use low rpms, you could add more duration to pick up the power over 4000 rpms, you will lose a lot of the torque below 3500, but if you use the gears in the box to keep the revs up, the duration could be increased to about 256 degs.

Harvey.
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  #10  
Old 03-30-2005, 12:21 PM
deruvian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oab_au
I think the duration figures are right.
In increasing the lift, there are two ways to do it. First is to grind the cam lobe base circle to a smaller dia. This will increase the lift, but will also increase the follower clearance. For a small amount <1mm, the hydraulic lifter can take up the extra clearance. If more lift is required , a shim can be fitted under the lifter to take up the clearance.
So this is the first way to do it, right? And it is for increasing the lift in small quantities, correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oab_au
To go to a larger lift the nose of the cam has to be built up with weld to increase its height and reground to the same duration profile. This then may have the nose of the cam hitting the sides of the lifter well, as it turns. This area can be ground away to clear the nose ok.
And this is the second way to increase lift, and is for a large quantity of increase, right? Or perhaps I read your post incorrectly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by oab_au
I have not looked at this engine to do this, and it would be best to let the cam grinder look at the head, to see how much clearance there is between the cam nose and the lifter well. Slightly stronger springs would be needed, but there is no point in using super strong springs, as they just stress the valve gear more than necessary.
Harv, do you know if it is possible for one to measure this himself? I don't really have the time or the effort to put forth in providing the entire head for a cam grinder.

Essentially, I would like to increase the lift as much as possible without having to change any other internals. If something like installing a shim (which sounds pretty damn easy) is required, I could go for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oab_au
As I have allways said if you are going to run an auto, you need to maintain the same duration figures. If you are running a manual and low gearing, and don't use low rpms, you could add more duration to pick up the power over 4000 rpms, you will lose a lot of the torque below 3500, but if you use the gears in the box to keep the revs up, the duration could be increased to about 256 degs.

Harvey.
I whole-heartedly agree with that statement. There is no reason to "free up horsepower" unless you can find some other way to provide the torque that you lost by doing so.
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  #11  
Old 03-30-2005, 05:27 PM
oab_au oab_au is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deruvian
So this is the first way to do it, right? And it is for increasing the lift in small quantities, correct?

Yes that is right The lifter can take up a fair amount of clearance.



And this is the second way to increase lift, and is for a large quantity of increase, right? Or perhaps I read your post incorrectly...

Yes if you want more lift, it has to be added to the nose of the cam.



Harv, do you know if it is possible for one to measure this himself? I don't really have the time or the effort to put forth in providing the entire head for a cam grinder.

[I]Yes you can do it, Just pull the cam covers and rotate the cam, watching the nose of the lobe as it moves to push the lifter down, see how much gap there is between the cam nose and the casting around the lifter, as the lift is increased the nose will get closer to the edge of the lifter well. If it is going to touch, the edge will have to be ground away..


Essentially, I would like to increase the lift as much as possible without having to change any other internals. If something like installing a shim (which sounds pretty damn easy) is required, I could go for that.

It would be worth looking at how the 4 cylinder guys have done this, as they would be much the same. See what type of shim they use.



I whole-heartedly agree with that statement. There is no reason to "free up horsepower" unless you can find some other way to provide the torque that you lost by doing so.

To use the Auto box, you will need the low torque, as the gear box will allways use those low rpms. With a manual you can use the gears to stay in the higher rpms, so the bottom end torque is not so important.

Harvey.
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Old 03-31-2005, 01:03 PM
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So Harv, what do you think would be a safe bet for an increase in lift? 1mm, or less maybe? Should the base circle be reground, or should the nose size be increased?

This post from NASIOC states that a lift size of more than 0.365" (9.27mm) on the 2.2 liter requires new valve springs. This is likely the same for us, since the EG33 is essentially the same but with 2 more cylinders.

This thread on NASIOC talks a lot about how the valve lash needed to be adjusted multiple times (2.2 liter again, I believe). Once I do this, am I going to have to adjust the valves over and over? Can the valves even be adjusted on the EG33?

If having custom cams is going to turn my SVX into a very high-maintenance machine that I must baby all the time, that will be my breaking point. I want to get better cams so that I can play with my car, not work on it all the damn time.

Thanks again, Harv.
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Old 03-31-2005, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deruvian
So Harv, what do you think would be a safe bet for an increase in lift? 1mm, or less maybe? Should the base circle be reground, or should the nose size be increased?

This post from NASIOC states that a lift size of more than 0.365" (9.27mm) on the 2.2 liter requires new valve springs. This is likely the same for us, since the EG33 is essentially the same but with 2 more cylinders.

This thread on NASIOC talks a lot about how the valve lash needed to be adjusted multiple times (2.2 liter again, I believe). Once I do this, am I going to have to adjust the valves over and over? Can the valves even be adjusted on the EG33?

If having custom cams is going to turn my SVX into a very high-maintenance machine that I must baby all the time, that will be my breaking point. I want to get better cams so that I can play with my car, not work on it all the damn time.

Thanks again, Harv.
If there is enough reserve in the lifters to take up the clearance that grinding the base circle produces, than I would go that way. If itI has to be added to the nose of the cam then the clearance between the nose and the lifter well has to be looked at. Thats why I suggested taking a head to the grinder to check it out.

I don't think the valve springs would coil bind, at the lift that we are looking at. They are using big lifts, 9.27mm is 2.27mm more that it has now. We are looking at 1mm.

The EG33 has hydraulic lifters, so you don't need to adjust them,

Harvey.
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Old 04-02-2005, 06:56 PM
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Grinding the cam for more lift.

There are two ways that the cam grinder can provide more lift. The first is to grind a new profile on the old lobe. The second is to build up the cam with weld, and then grind the new profile on that.

The first, is the one preferred by the grinder, as it is easier for them. They just chuck up the cam in the grinder, select the profile, ring the bell when finished. When the cam is done this way, the cam profile is smaller, so there is more tappet clearance. So you just have to adjust the tappets to take the clearance up. But we have hydraulic lifters, that can only adjust a small amount of extra clearance, probably less than 1mm. Larger lifts give larger clearance, so shims have to be fitted under the lifters. Not easy.

The second way is to build up the cam with weld and grind the new profile, on it. This way the base circle is the same diameter, so the clearance remains the same. The lifters stay at the same position, and no shims are required. The pointed end of the cam, (the nose,) is now taller, so we have to make sure that it will rotate, without hitting the head casting around the lifter well, if so , the metal has to be removed to clear.

As the exhaust cam has 8mm lift, it stands to reason that the inlet can use the same lift, with out having any problems, of hitting the casting, or binding the springs. 9mm may be possibly. This is the most likely way for us to do it.

The 2.2 lt engines heads are completely different to our heads. Our heads are more like the WRX, twin cams over bucket hydraulic lifters, working directly on the valves. So it follows that what has been done, with camshafts on the Rex can probably be done on the SVX. I am not suggesting that we follow the same timing, as they have different objectives, but the lift problem would be the same. It would be good to research what they have had to do, to get the lifts.

Harvey.
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  #15  
Old 04-04-2005, 04:36 PM
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Thank you Harvey. All very good information to have. I will be performing a lot of maintenance on the SVX quite soon, and replacing the valve cover gaskets is one of them. I will be sure to let everyone know when I get the measurements for the lobe clearance, and also of course when I have the new camshafts done up.

I am also considering purchasing a spare engine, that I can build more easily from outside of the car. If this ends up being the case, I will be performing a lot more work than just camshafts.

Decisions, decisions... AWD 5MT, or built N/A engine?
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